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RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes

 
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RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/11/2008 10:22:13 PM   
Southernland


Posts: 2283
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah the ol' shooting through a house dilemma.  I suspect that comes from the limitations imposed by the game and coding issues.   Certainly adding coded interior walls to buildings helps negate the 'billy the kid' effect.  Back in cc3 you could add interior walls and doors and even furniture as coded items and I think some of the larger interior coding elements (like factory floor) had a build in LOS impediment too.

I've had this discussion before but if you look at you shooting through a house situations they're always tank vs tank.   I think how the game works... the tank shooting fires from one pixel, and at a certain distance from a building with windows there is a narow arc through which it can "see" and fire... now if an enemy tank is perpendictular to that line it stands a chance of being seen and eventually hit, often without chqance of reply

(in reply to berndn)
Post #: 31
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/12/2008 7:17:18 AM   
Moss Orleni

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Southern_land

Yeah the ol' shooting through a house dilemma.  I suspect that comes from the limitations imposed by the game and coding issues.   Certainly adding coded interior walls to buildings helps negate the 'billy the kid' effect.  Back in cc3 you could add interior walls and doors and even furniture as coded items and I think some of the larger interior coding elements (like factory floor) had a build in LOS impediment too.

I've had this discussion before but if you look at you shooting through a house situations they're always tank vs tank.   I think how the game works... the tank shooting fires from one pixel, and at a certain distance from a building with windows there is a narow arc through which it can "see" and fire... now if an enemy tank is perpendictular to that line it stands a chance of being seen and eventually hit, often without chqance of reply


We saw this happening only a couple of days ago...
Setting: the Stavelot map, the big building in the north near the Amblève. An M-36 in ambush position on the western side of the building, right next to the wall; a Panther working his way up the little road from the northeast, suddenly spotting the tank destroyer and putting him away with a flank shot. All this while the Panther was not even adjacent to the eastern wall, it spotted the M-36 through a small patch of open terrain, the factory interior and 2 factory windows. The Jackson never even saw the Panther (which I promptly renamed 'eagle-eyed Ernst' ...

Makes me wonder: the sighting principle you explain, doesn't it also illustrates why LOS is not always reciprocal? If sighting originates from one pixel, but vehicular size (or object size, whichever is used to determine LOS) is larger than one pixel, than you should see this 1-way LOS thing happen...

On a related note, a question for Southern_land, or any of the map coders/data experts: is there a possibility for vehicles to go in hull defilade behind a low obstacle or behind the crest of a ridge/elevation? I mean, does the game allow for only the turret to be seen and/or hit, or is the vehicle always spotted as a whole?

Cheers,
Moss

(in reply to Southernland)
Post #: 32
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/12/2008 9:24:25 PM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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From: Frankston Victoria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moss Orleni

On a related note, a question for Southern_land, or any of the map coders/data experts: is there a possibility for vehicles to go in hull defilade behind a low obstacle or behind the crest of a ridge/elevation? I mean, does the game allow for only the turret to be seen and/or hit, or is the vehicle always spotted as a whole?

Cheers,
Moss


MickXe5 did a demonstration of it at CSO. He made a simple green map with a wall of varying heights , put tanks behind it and played. CSO is down now so I cant search for it. I dont remember the results, it was a few years ago.

(in reply to Moss Orleni)
Post #: 33
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/12/2008 9:53:47 PM   
Moss Orleni

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for that info Pvt_Grunt, I'm very interested in seeing that CSO thread.

AFAIK, vehicles do not have a 'height' property (unless indirectly via vehicular size or object size), so I really wonder how the game engine copes with it (fi how is the hit chance affected?)
Knowing how to use hull defilade IMO would be a considerable advantage...

Cheers,
Moss

(in reply to Pvt_Grunt)
Post #: 34
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/16/2008 5:08:41 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


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quote:

Is Google SketchUp an option for those of us who can't draw?!


As I have mentioned over at the CCS, this approach has hit a snag in that SketchUp's Sandbox tools are not available on the free version. I'll now have to swot up on Blender.

(in reply to CSO_Talorgan)
Post #: 35
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/17/2008 10:32:47 AM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		If interested I still have a file on the ccs ftp site that has many textures for maps.
It's called textures 2


http://www.closecombatseries.net/platoon_michael/

Edit:
I really like the shadding of the sun light on Krinklet.
And the covered bunkers on the new WAR maps.

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 12/17/2008 10:33:17 AM >

(in reply to CSO_Talorgan)
Post #: 36
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 1:27:00 AM   
RD Oddball

 

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Status: offline 		Talorgan with respect to SketchUp does that mean you can't use it at all or that you just can't create textures within it?  Sort of sounds like you have to have your textures made before putting things together in SketchUp. 

Thanks for posting the texture links Michael.  I made Krinkelt based on some extensive research by Neil.  He has a book with many ground level shots, detailed maps, accounts, etc..  So according to those maps and pics it's an exact copy of the town pretty much.  The shading was from some elevation models I'd found of the area turned into 2D representation.  Re: covered bunkers - thanks.

(in reply to Platoon_Michael)
Post #: 37
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 5:38:40 AM   
Southernland


Posts: 2283
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Ok here's my guessimation of the snapshot through a house (or other cover) I Don't know if this is true but based on what I've seen it makes sense. Ninety percent of the time it is the tank closer to the building that is able to get the snapshot away, this makes sense as the angle out of the building it can 'see would be greater. Also I've never seen infantry shoot through a building, i think this is because of the multiple wepons deployed with scattered troops, the computer can't make the decision where the LOS is ...


The following is a rough pic a sherman shooting at a JTiger. The sherman is closer to the building and can draw bead through two windows --green line-- (no interior walls coded) while the Jtiger is slightly ofset and it;s LOS --red line-- intersects the wall tile of the building

As i say I'm not sure about this but it seems to fit what I've seeing while playing CC




Attachment (1)

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 38
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 6:12:53 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Columns AB and AC of the elements.txtare Block LOS  and Block All LOS


Walls are set to Block LOS (AB)  but not ALL LOS (AC)... this is so defending troops can use the wall as cover and fire through it.

So this explains exactly what you are seeing Southern_Land.


Now, thinking out loud.... if the walls are coded to not block adjacent LOS (AC)  but this , seemingly and debatably, adversely effects tanks.

Should a row of impassable to vehicle elements be coded around each building to avoid this sort of behaviour... will that remove most instances of this behaviour?

(in reply to Southernland)
Post #: 39
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 6:14:18 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Thinking out loud MkII

Should all buildings be painted larger so that interior walls can be coded in and still leave enough room for doorways and rooms big enough to hold a squad.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 40
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 8:50:04 AM   
Moss Orleni

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Southern_land

The following is a rough pic a sherman shooting at a JTiger. The sherman is closer to the building and can draw bead through two windows --green line-- (no interior walls coded) while the Jtiger is slightly ofset and it;s LOS --red line-- intersects the wall tile of the building



Coincidentally, I was reviewing the Stavelot map where the M-36 wreck of the previous battle was still at the same spot behind the house.
Your picture almost exactly describes what happened. The only thing different is that it was the centre of the M-36 (the target) that was offset vis-a-vis the Panther's LOS, and for that reason probably never even spotted its adversary.

Andrew: I'm not experienced enough in map coding to say something useful about this. The adding of more interior walls is probably a good solution.
But AFAIK, this kind of stuff did not seem to happen in fi stock CC4/CC5 or GJS. And squads shooting from houses worked fine as well. Did you already compare WaR element data with previous versions?

Cheers,
Moss

(in reply to Southernland)
Post #: 41
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 9:53:22 AM   
Southernland


Posts: 2283
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		if you have a look at the building to the left of the tanks it has both interior walls coded in (2 mauve squares) and an exterior wll of differnt height where a single floor leantoo is connected to the 2 story main structure.

PS this is an original cc5 map... airfeild

(in reply to Moss Orleni)
Post #: 42
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 10:16:52 AM   
Moss Orleni

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline 		You lost me ... I suppose you mean the building to the RIGHT of the tanks, no?

You mean that this situation will occur in stock CC5 as well? It's just that apparently people seem to experience it quite often in WaR...
Might be that the CC5 maps have a lower frequency of these 'see-through' buildings?

Just guessing here...

(in reply to Southernland)
Post #: 43
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/18/2008 4:37:01 PM   
Southernland


Posts: 2283
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		it was in response to Andrews comment about larger buildings, just showing that regular ones can also have interior walls coded without too much detremental effect

(in reply to Moss Orleni)
Post #: 44
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/20/2008 6:29:58 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


Posts: 768
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

Talorgan with respect to SketchUp does that mean you can't use it at all or that you just can't create textures within it?  Sort of sounds like you have to have your textures made before putting things together in SketchUp.


Without the paid-for version you can't import a contour map and use that as a starting point. That would have been the main attraction of the program, especially as lighting is dynamic. (My shadows are hopeless.)

I never got as far as testing textures but I don't think they are affected.

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 45
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/28/2008 3:06:09 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Ah I see.  Yeah doing shadows are a fairly significant issue for everyone.  Photoshop provides some decent tools in this respect but none are perfect.  They all have some handicap.  If you paint them in on a semi-transparent layer they darken the area as opposed to messing with ambience and specularity.  If you use the layer filters each has it's own drawbacks.  So I'd agree doing shadows and shading in a 3D program would likely get better results.

RE: LOS through two lined up windows -  Coding interior walls into the map IS the solution.  Not all situations allow for it tho.  Sometimes the house graphic is so small that if you put in interior walls there'd be no room for soldiers inside.

(in reply to CSO_Talorgan)
Post #: 46
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/29/2008 8:36:35 AM   
Q.M


Posts: 1823
Joined: 3/13/2003
From: Townsville QLD Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

RE: LOS through two lined up windows -  Coding interior walls into the map IS the solution.  Not all situations allow for it tho.  Sometimes the house graphic is so small that if you put in interior walls there'd be no room for soldiers inside.


Agreed. And this was the case 90% of the time in WaR. Either code the interior walls/doors, or dont and allow room for the sprites.

In WaR we found that interior coding was impossible in most cases due to the size of the building (small) and the angle of the building in relation to the pixel to be coded. One pixel coded at an odd or extreme angle could ruin a sprites whole day and make the building an untenable piece of architecture.

In the end it came down to minute adjustments post coding to ensure that sprites could access the coded building. Whether this left a snap shot opportunity through windows or not was not evident until post coding and LOS was applied.

Most were picked up and rectified. Unfortunately you must accept that in any instance some LOS through windows will still be evident.

What can I say, take the snap shot if offered. I know the lame assed AI will.

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 47
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 12/29/2008 9:11:26 AM   
Moss Orleni

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline 		Probably more for the modding subforum, but since it's relevant here...

How can you check in the data files whether a given vehicle/team/sprite will fit into a building?
Do you need to compare object size or vehicular size with the coding tile dimensions of the interior? And how about non-vehicle teams (that don't have a object/vehicular size listed)?

Cheers,
Moss

(in reply to Q.M)
Post #: 48
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 1/2/2009 10:39:21 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Most houses are copies from stock CC maps.  However I've drawn scads with my own creations on them and I'm sure every other mapper has done the same. 

The fact you can shoot through some houses is due to two windows being lined up on the path of LOS.  If that's not desired you simply code in interior walls to block the LOS.  If that's not possible then draw the house bigger so there's room.

Now if your goal/point was that you want to create houses where LOS can be traced through them that's not done in the graphics that's done in coding.  The only spot you'd need to indicate this in the graphics is by drawing in windows on the walls when drawing the interiors then coding those locations accordingly.  When I draw interiors I have the PS grid on and set to 10x10 pixels (1 element tile size) and make sure my window graphics line up with those grids so an element can be placed directly on top of the graphic.  That's not possible in every instance (i.e. some angled walls) but when houses are square to the map edge it generally is.

Your ideas about using 3D modelling to draw maps is a great one.  Would take some of the guess work out of it.  I think once a library of models is created it'd be a since to draw maps using the method you outlined.

(in reply to berndn)
Post #: 49
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 1/3/2009 10:46:05 AM   
berndn

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		Incredible work you have to do.

While doing the main 3D terrain stuff in a 3D program like blender the most important thing would be to write an export filter which would take the 3D map, rotates it so that the view would be the used 2D view from the CC series and then create the height bitmap.

Interesting stuff about coding the houses. One problem with the 2D coding seems that only the top floors and windows/breakthroughs are coded or better can be coded. A minor problem in my opinion.

With a good exported height map I could see that programming a 2D option window which would simple display the height/distance in a single curve depending on the targeting unit => the target would help to visualize the different heights instead of a more or less flat terrain. It looks the 'physics' engine seems to be able to take height differences into account when firing from a hill downside. At least given the discussion about the shermans/panthers it looks like the different angles seem to be calculated.

Anyway, thanks for all the information. Unlucky I have not enough time for working myself into blender or whatever so it's only some ideas :)

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 50
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 4/22/2009 9:11:48 AM   
Olmossoft

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for all those 'behind the scenes' info, and hats off to all involved in this release!

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(in reply to berndn)
Post #: 51
RE: WaR mapping - behind the scenes - 4/22/2009 7:21:49 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Great to see this thread 'wakened up,' if for no other reason than the opening post. I've made a few maps for Civilization 3 and Civilization 4 and found it to be fairly fun. Maybe, eventually, (after I get tenure?) might take a crack at making some CC maps. New to CC series, but frankly find WaR to be about as tasty as crack-cocaine, so I'm sure I'm going to become a long-time consumer of many of the CC series . . .

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(in reply to Olmossoft)
Post #: 52
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