AI still sucks!

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> WW2: Road to Victory >> AI still sucks!

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AI still sucks! - 12/9/2008 10:34:32 PM

Mickrocks201

Posts: 95
Joined: 8/2/2008
From: Santa Fe, NM
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I was still able to take Moscow by Jun 41... Will admit that atleast this time it was garrisoned :) Some attempts to form lines on thepart of the Russian but still not much challenge. I think I am going to give up on this turkey as hopeless. Not much challeng at all.

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/9/2008 10:41:27 PM

doomtrader

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I'm not sure is it AI this time or maybe rather lack of strenght of Soviet army.

When did you attacked USSR?

Or maybe try to take Berlin?

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/9/2008 11:11:47 PM

Mickrocks201

Posts: 95
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From: Santa Fe, NM
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I attacked Russia the first March turn. I even gave the Russians 50% extra.

I also noticed that as the allies in the '41 game that the axis still commit suicide in Egypt - the armor tries an unsupported end around and is easy to cut off, and the blocking force on the Libyan border is also easy to cut off leaving the axis with nada in north Africa 2 turns later. Is it that hard to write some code to analyze whether or not a move will stand a good chance of getting cut off??????

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/9/2008 11:35:25 PM

doomtrader

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mickrocks, it is neither to hard neither to easy to write some code.
We are already planned it for next update, altogether with revised OOB.

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 7:56:04 AM

Anraz

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mickrocks, I strongly recommend you to play with 1.3 patch, so you will see the AI making front lines and it makes playing against it much more challenging.

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Post #: 5

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 2:05:20 PM

Alan Sharif

Posts: 1108
Joined: 8/1/2001
From: UK.
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Must confess if players confirm the AI issues are sorted I,for one, will stop sitting on the fence and purchase this title. Here's hoping.

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Post #: 6

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 2:32:22 PM

doomtrader

Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
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AI isn't and never be perfect (at least for some time until SkyNet starts thinking), and I also don't know any game where AI is able to beat human without cheating.

I can tell that we have made a nice step forward with this patch. Of course, now scenarios needs to be better balanced, this is what we are planning to do in the next major update. There are also another AI improvements planned. (Between them are: patching holes in front lines, balancing units gathered in city's victinity, planning attacks against enemy units more coordinated)

Now if playing as Germany you will attack USSR to early, Soviets just don't have enough amount of units to create front lines. Give them a chance and send some LendLease by using F1 button.

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 3:01:58 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
AI isn't and never be perfect (at least for some time until SkyNet starts thinking), and I also don't know any game where AI is able to beat human without cheating.

Don't feel too bad about it, but pretty much every wargame by SSG and Panther Games has an AI which can beat a human on a regular basis - without cheating

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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Post #: 8

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 3:55:17 PM

doomtrader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
AI isn't and never be perfect (at least for some time until SkyNet starts thinking), and I also don't know any game where AI is able to beat human without cheating.

Don't feel too bad about it, but pretty much every wargame by SSG and Panther Games has an AI which can beat a human on a regular basis - without cheating

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

That's where Wastelands Interactive is heading to.

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Post #: 9

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 7:41:27 PM

Mickrocks201

Posts: 95
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From: Santa Fe, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

mickrocks, I strongly� recommend you to play with 1.3 patch, so you will see the AI making front lines and it makes playing against it much more challenging.

I was playing with 1.3 patch and gave Russians 50% extra PP. Front line sort of formed but went to pieces in a few turns. They seemed to have lots of air power though - still spending PP's for Russian air units and not tons of Inf Corps?? I just don't see that there is much improvement overall in the AI from before.

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Post #: 10

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 8:43:56 PM

Anraz

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quote:

Don't feel too bad about it, but pretty much every wargame by SSG and Panther Games has an AI which can beat a human on a regular basis - without cheating

So I`m no human :D

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Post #: 11

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 8:51:06 PM

doomtrader

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Type of units bought by AI is not hardcoded.

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Post #: 12

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 10:19:33 PM

Anraz

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quote:

Front line sort of formed

So it is imporved! I guess you attack USSR early and their unit are weak, that is way you breakthrowu so easly. AI has been taught to rebuild the front line, but with no PP AI is no-hoper.

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RE: AI still sucks! - 12/11/2008 11:15:07 PM

gwgardner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mickrocks

I was playing with 1.3 patch and gave Russians 50% extra PP. Front line sort of formed but went to pieces in a few turns. They seemed to have lots of air power though - still spending PP's for Russian air units and not tons of Inf Corps?? I just don't see that there is much improvement overall in the AI from before. [/font]

That could be the basis for a fairly historical outcome, given the heavy losses of the Russians in 1941, the deep penetrations by the Germans, the huge pincer movements capturing hundreds of thousands.

Perhaps what's needed is some experimentation with increasing the PP levels for the USSR, reflecting their manpower pool and troops from the Far East. And some jiggering with the force purchase scripts to encourage more infantry.

If you're like me, you would prefer that that kind of play balancing would have already been done by the developers prior to the original release. Given that that was not done, there seems to be some hope for a series of future patches and/or mods that will address these issues.

Following the suggestion of others here (look at recent posts), I have gone into the consts.csv file and changed the zone of control movement penalty upwards. Combine that with a fog of war of 3 or 4 hexes and I think it still allows for blitzkrieg tactics but requires some attention to maintaining a continuous front for the human player.

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Post #: 14

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 12:20:30 AM

doomtrader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Following the suggestion of others here (look at recent posts), I have gone into the consts.csv file and changed the zone of control movement penalty upwards. Combine that with a fog of war of 3 or 4 hexes and I think it still allows for blitzkrieg tactics but requires some attention to maintaining a continuous front for the human player.

This is feedback we are really looking for.
We have limited time for testing and we are really focusing over technical issues rather than game balance. Also regarding this, our impressions might be completly dofferent than other gamemongers.

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Post #: 15

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 12:28:28 AM

Max 86

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

quote:

Front line sort of formed
� So it is imporved! � I guess you attack USSR early� and their unit are weak, that is way you breakthrowu so easly. AI has been taught to rebuild the front line, but with no PP AI is no-hoper.

So the question begs, Chief, does the AI suck or should the Germans just have steamrolled through Poland on their way to Moscow in '39 back in the day? Not sure the free world would have objected much back then.

Personally, I have never looked at Soviet army strength in 1939. Any significant differences?

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 16

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 1:12:30 AM

doomtrader

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The question might be different:

How quick are you able to defeat Germany as Soviet Union?

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Post #: 17

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 2:35:26 AM

cpdeyoung

Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
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Interesting points.

Play balance in a simulation of the European theater in the Second World War is quite a subject.

Regarding Barbarossa, the German military was not enthuastic about the campaign, and with very good reason. The swift fall of Poland and France left the Axis facing England. They were at a loss how to solve the dilemma of a campaign in which the Royal Navy dominated, and the RAF very much held its own. Hitler decided to turn East, and what a huge task he presented his commanders. Both sides in this struggle made mistakes. The Axis got a late start because of Balkan entanglements, and the Soviets suffered from the Stalin purges. In our game when playing as the Axis we choose our moment to enter battle, without having distractions, and when playing the Soviets our generalship, from strategic to tactical level is our own, purge or no. I feel the complaint against the AI is that the Soviets are defeated too easily. With 1.3 I think they do a much better job of holding their own. I find the Axis offense is the weak point. When I play the Soviets, and the Axis finishes their Jugoslav adventure, they find the Soviet borders lined with strong infantry forces, behind which powerful tank and mech forces patrol. In the far south the Axis forces see active Soviet campaigning in an offensive. No greed tricked my Soviets into intimidating the Baltic countries, and it is not long before the Soviets are on the offensive. If I have been playing the British and French they may be both still campaigning, yes, my French are often around when the Germans declare war on the Soviet Union. Is this because of a poor AI? Not really, it is because I have the huge advantage of knowing the way the real war went, and perhaps more important I have played this game many times.

So how do you simulate a campaign where the actual forces made mistakes, and the players of the game do not? Do we want to have VP conditions set to force the Germans into sacrificing their navy in Norway, force your Italians to invade Greece, and so on? I do not want the game to go this route. I prefer to have the multiple start points provided by the scenarios for those who want a Barbarossa start which reflects the situation in late June 1941.

For me, I want to campaign "my way", and I will save games at interesting points, and come back and switch sides. These are my "scenarios", points at which I say to myself "I want to try and defend against that attack".

That being said there is one improvement which I think could be quickly implemented, and which would help the AI challenge me, and that is to make the AI satisfy the condition that any city within 20 hexes of the last known enemy position be garrisoned with a level 2 infantry division at the least. Call me greedy, but I cannot resist pushing a unit into an empty city. I would have to play a much different game if each such city had to be reduced, rather than only occupied.

Another AI improvement mentioned is to have the AI check carefully for possible entrapment by denial of supplies. I think this is trickier, but perhaps it could be improved. The developers of the game are incrementally improving the "tactical" level play of the AI, and iteration by iteration it will improve.

Pour on the suggestions and our joint opponent will become a better gamer!

Chuck

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Post #: 18

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 1:21:41 PM

Radar8717

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The baseline design of this game is very solid. With just a little effort, one can learn to modify the game's parameters enough to make the AI more challenging. It is reasonably easy to make the invasion of Russia, or any other campaign, tough on a solitaire human axis player on your own.

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Post #: 19

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 8:38:58 PM

Mickrocks201

Posts: 95
Joined: 8/2/2008
From: Santa Fe, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

quote:

Front line sort of formed
� So it is imporved! � I guess you attack USSR early� and their unit are weak, that is way you breakthrowu so easly. AI has been taught to rebuild the front line, but with no PP AI is no-hoper.

So the question begs, Chief, does the AI suck or should the Germans just have steamrolled through Poland on their way to Moscow in '39 back in the day? Not sure the free world would have objected much back then.

Personally, I have never looked at Soviet army strength in 1939. Any significant differences?

Ok... to give you all a fair chance I took the Axis in the 1941 scenario which quite limits the state of the German Army and Gave the Russians a +50% bonus. I resisted taking advantage of gross Russian AI mistake like leaving 3 air armies within easy range of German armor. I surrounded Moscow by May '42 and did the F1/cheat to see what was left of the Russian army at that point and they had maybe 8 corps left and 4 air armies scattered around a few cities.

As to your point of not attacking Russia early - that is supposed to be a "house rule"? After France falls the Balkans can be taken easily before autumn of 1940. I suppose that is another house rule - wait? There should be aspects in the game that simulate reasons for not just forging ahead - there is nothing to keep the axis from running roughshod over the world as far as playing against the AI. I must say I was surprise by the AI's priorities--it put quite an effort into the Finish Campaign at the expense of more important goals. Abandoned key cities with Stat moves that i would have considered very tough to crack. True the AI tried to form lines, but never actually succeeded. The primary effort for the Russians HAS TO BE producing cheap inf corps not AIR or ARMOR until at least Summer of '42. They should have enough resource to slow the German advance without too much difficulty by 42.

I know some have suggest using F1 to change sides to keep things in balance, but I really don't find that apealling. Just me. I was hoping for some sort of challenging play but it is just a mechanical exersise as the Axis. I'll try one more take as the Allies - perhaps the AI's problem is it can't defend worth a poop.

I get the feeling that you think I am being unfair in my criticism, but you all put out the product and I spent my money on it, and I expected more out of the product.

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Post #: 20

RE: AI still sucks! - 12/12/2008 9:29:25 PM

Mickrocks201

Posts: 95
Joined: 8/2/2008
From: Santa Fe, NM
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After 2 turns as the allies in the 41 game, the axis has throw away 2 armor corps in Russia (exposed and surrounded) and just about all of the North Africa force. I'll just stop the game there. The AI could help itself greatly by not throwing away its most valuable resources. Either that or don't make getting cut off from supplies so devastating - maybe don't allow the unit to move, but to force an otherwise full strength armor unit defend at 1 because it is cutoff!!!! how about 3/4 strength the first turn 1/2 the second and maybe 1/4 the third turn??? Even the 6th army last a few turns in Stalingrad.

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Post #: 21