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RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 7:05:17 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Sir John,
You know I will be over giving the Allies some suggestions to defeat the Japanese hordes.
Once an AFB, always an AFB.
Michael

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Post #: 31
China Possiblities - 12/28/2008 7:37:56 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Here is the North China Region:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 32
Christmas List: - 12/28/2008 7:59:57 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I just perused the Manchurian Front and am thinking about what might help our offensive into India.  Here is a late-Christmas request list:

Tsitsihar       2nd/10th Heavy Gun Regiment
66,28           23rd Tank Reg
Mishan         3rd Cavalry Brigade/11th Tank Reg
Mutankiang   10th Tank Reg/27th & 7th Engineer Reg
62,33           Tone Heavy Gun Reg
Fushan         Botanko Heavy Gun Reg
Harbin          8th Heavy Gun Reg

Did I miss anything?



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RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 8:04:38 PM   
Q-Ball


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Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I have also used those Chinese Brigades, but I would rather pull tank units from the Home Islands FIRST before China. Unless we are really pressed for PPs, I would also rather pull Kwantung troops than China Command......Pulling from China subtracts from efforts there, while pulling from Manchuria subtracts from nothing. (provided we keep the 8000K garrison of course).

Also, I think we are HOUSE RULE restricted from using Kwantung troops in China. We should check that, because there is huge number of units available if not.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 12/28/2008 8:05:47 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 8:08:47 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Agree with that thinking.  The LAST thing I EVER want to see happen is Russia become active!  

Japan and Manchuria sounds good to draw from particularly in armor and heavy artillery.  What do you think our priorities ought to be for pulling units out of these areas?

What do you think of the Northern China option?



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Post #: 35
Japan X-Mas Presents - 12/28/2008 8:35:50 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		There isn't very much in Japan to help the attack:
Fukuoka   1st Reserve Tank Reg
Osaka      6th Reserve Tank Reg
Sasebo    1st Mortar Reg




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Post #: 36
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 8:38:35 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		1. We should attack in North China, I like that. Yenan, then depending on how that goes, Sian, then Honan. Paotow looks like a tempting point grab, if Yenen falls it's completely isolated (and Static). Maintain defensive in South China, with exception of drive on Wenchow.
2. In terms of pulling troops, the two tank Rgts in Home Islands are very cheap, currently about 100 points. Those should be first. The 12th and 13th Bdes are also cheap. 8th Heavy Art Bde is not expensive, and packs a punch. 20th Inf Div. in Korea is very expensive, over 3000 points; but it's experienced, and right now doing nothing. We should probably start prepping many divisions in Manchuria for both Eastern Australia (decoy), and Karachi.
3. We are also going to need PP for aircraft, starting with those Claude units in the Home Islands (when we have enough Zeros), and also including the Kwantung air forces.

I thought about the Kwantung Tank units, but I noticed in this mod that those particular units have AT guns and AA guns attached, which I think will slow the unit down. I wonder if that was on purpose. It's only the Kwantung tanks.

Also John you had asked about CV Support for India....it may be possible to pull it off without KB. If we go in early Feb, there will only be 1 RN CV plus Hermes; HMS Formidable arrives 3/15/42. We will gain Junyo about 3/1/42, and Shoho before then. LBA will be a problem, but we will have to accept some losses to get ashore. The RN CV's always give me headaches with Baby KB, they don't pack a big punch but are very difficult to sink. Meanwhile, a stiff breeze can sink Ryujo. If we do retain all of KB in the Cent Pac, we will need nearly all BB's in the IO, to protect the fleet and for bombardment support. As you know the RN BB fleet is formidable; they will have difficulty getting in range, but we have to account for them. An advantage of invading early is the LBA available to the UK won't be huge; depending on what they withdraw from Malaya, around 50-70 Blenheims and 60 Hurris are about it.

In terms of where to land in India, Vizagapatam is the obvious choice; it's clear terrain. Because it's obvious it will likely be defended by at least 2 Indian Divisions. Chittagong could be an alternative, though that wouldn't trap many troops. We could also skip an invasion of Ceylon if we landed there, and save it for later.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 12/28/2008 9:52:46 PM >

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RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 8:56:24 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thanks for the massed comments.

Dan I take your insights as gospel since you have kicked my &**&^^ with Chinese troops elsewhere on the map!  All those Chinese Hordes attacking in our game, were they freed up by my attacks earlier in the war or were they mobile to start with?  This REALLY provides an answer to the China problem early.  If they were already mobile then we are screwed from the start.  If they were not then we need to be more careful and pick our battles.

2nd ACR I am really beginning to agree with your thinking.  I think we shall wait at least two weeks to launch the overland assault from Rahaeng.  We can seal off Rangoon by using Tavoy and Victoria Point to fly our bombers and fighters while Port Blair can build-up and fly naval search missions.  If we wait the two weeks to attack then it will take at least two more weeks to arrive at Moulmein.  We have to be careful because stopping that juncture with the Chinese units is very important.  Lashio will still need to be taken to prevent that.

Castor has made me remember that as soon as we cut the Burma Road this will throw the Chinese into more supply trouble. 

The North or South argument has merit too.  If we look to move into India to gain a boost to the economy then shouldn't the SAME thought be used in China?  If we work that line of reasoning then, perhaps, a Northern Attack is better.

Heck--I don't know...


John, when our game started I had no clue what to do in China. Then you did two things that forced my hand. First, you told me that you wouldn't advance any Jap troops in China until they were 50% prepped. I took this as a ruse on your part, sending misinformation to disguise your true intention of siphoning off Jap units from China (which it was). (2) You did in fact send units elsewhere and it was clear you didn't want to fight in China. I tried a few offensives in China but failed miserably. I had no place left on the map to fight except Burma, and thought I had better get as many troops there as possible.

Only a handful of Chinese units start out with SEAC HQ designation. But in Big B both sides get alot of Politcal Points, so I was able to transfer many, many units to SEAC. Some marched overland to Lashio, some were air-transported to Burma and India.

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RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 8:59:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

1. We should attack in North China, I like that. Yenan, then depending on how that goes, Sian, then Honan. Paotow looks like a tempting point grab, if Yenen falls it's completely isolated (and Static). Maintain defensive in South China, with exception of drive on Wenchow.
2. In terms of pulling troops, the two tank Rgts in Home Islands are very cheap, currently about 100 points. Those should be first. The 12th and 13th Bdes are also cheap. 8th Heavy Art Bde is not expensive, and packs a punch. 20th Inf Div. in Korea is very expensive, over 3000 points; but it's experienced, and right now doing nothing. We should probably start prepping many divisions in Manchuria for both Eastern Australia (decoy), and Karachi.
3. We are also going to need PP for aircraft, starting with those Claude units in the Home Islands (when we have enough Zeros), and also including the Kwantung air forces.

I thought about the Kwantung Tank units, but I noticed in this mod that those particular units have AT guns and AA guns attached, which I think will slow the unit down. I wonder if that was on purpose. It's only the Kwantung tanks.


I don't think you have a prayer at anything "south" of Yenen unless you make a huge commitment of Jap troops or your opponents make a mistake. It's easy for the Chinese to defend Sian and Honan. As an Allied player, my advice to you guys is to forget big plans in China and concentrate elsewhere. That's what would worry me anyhow.

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Post #: 39
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 9:51:28 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Thank you Dan for providing your input!  I did actually follow the 50% rule in China but then decided it wasn't worth it at all.  We'll make this time different and take a real shot at northern China and Wengchow.  If we don't succeed then it at least keeps the players honest in China. 

Troops/Aircraft to Pull:
1.  The two tank Rgts in Home Islands--about 100 points each.
2.  8th Heavy Artillery Reg--300 or so
3.  Fighters and Bombers in Manchuria (support the Invasion)--figure about 1,000 PP worth of aircraft
4.  A Claude Daitai from Home Islands--200 PP
5.  Several of those cheap Brigades for deployment to the Pacific for garrison duty--about 700-1,000 PP each
6.  20th Inf Div--3,000 PP

We get 100 per turn in this Mod (3,000 per month). 

One thing we should change immediately our are SS Captains!  I always replace any who are less then 50% on a skill and replace them with much more aggressive leaders.  Those SS will die but, bye golly, they'll take some ships with them. 


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RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 9:52:44 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		Pick up every Tank Regiment you got, even the ones in Kwangtung and China. Mass them and shock attack with pursuit. I had the 18th UK div destroyed by this method by 4 attacks. From full strength to 10%.......and there were very few disabled.

You will want 2 fleet CV's plus Baby KB to support the invasion........I would use the kitchen sink myself. But that will allow you to prevent effective RN interferrence. You will want to go after Madras and Calcutta ASAP. Hyberbad inland. Madras and Calcutta are urban, but Madras can be taken with mass.

I would use 6 divisions, all tank reg, every engineer regiment, plus 3-4 of the big independent brigades.

Once they spot your invasion force, the rush out of Burma will start. The object will be to get to Calcutta ASAP and start taking out all the bases north of Burma. Then you are starving the Burma army and China.

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Post #: 41
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 10:49:15 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Darned fine thinking!  let me think about your proposals...

Brad?  What do you think?



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Post #: 42
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/28/2008 11:57:36 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Combine the Calcutta thrust with a move on northern China to cut off the pesky supply from Russia. It is not much, but it does flow. You can keep 1 armor regiment in northern China to speed up cutting off China.

I speak from experience on India.......Nemo has basically taken all of India from me. But he went for Ceylon first which gives him an unsinkable CV for his invasion. And he brought the kitchen sink.

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Post #: 43
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 1:00:45 AM   
Nemo121


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Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Hmm, I see some worrying thinking in this discussion. I would like to posit the following questions and suggest some answers...

1. What is your PRIMARY strategic objective? I think it is to build a strong economy and gain some strategic depth so that you have depth to trade for time through 1943 to 1945.

Now if you want a strong economy and want strategic depth then taking all of India or ALL of Oz make sense. Taking just a bit of either and leaving yourself in a position where Allied ground and aerial assets can attrit you is the worst of both worlds. It doesn't gain the economic benefits OR the strategic depth required but it open you up to the sort of attrition you wouldn't face if you just held at Burma.


No, if you go for India go with everything you have. I went into India with 5,500 AV and apart from some holdouts in Madras and Calcutta ( which I'm getting to as time permits ) all of India is in my hands. Going in with less than the kitchen sink ( well, I have 3,000 AV free for deployment elsewhere and have used that to finish taking Java and moving on to Noumea and New Zealand ) risks failure and I would argue that taking India should be the single strategic goal from December 1941 through to September 1942. After that you have a bit of time to play around with the remaining island in the Pacific or push home attacks on NZ to isolate it etc. But you can't do everything at the one time. You need to prioritise and there's no point going in with half measures.

Also if going for India I would strongly advise taking Ceylon first... That gives you an unsinkable CV with which to dominate the air and sea for a wide radius. IF you decide on a limited operation to India then Ceylon is the best limited target to attack as it won't require the endless committment of ground forces which the Allies can force upon you if you just try to take Calcutta and hold a ground line north and north-west of Calcutta.


To paraphrase a historical strategist... Pursue a single goal with every fibre at your disposal.  I would argue that the acme of military art lies not in coming up with massively intricate strategems but lies, instead, in correctly choosing as targets those things which are vital to the enemy and maintaining one's freedom of action/mental flexibility such that one can turn whatever reaction the enemy makes to one's own advantage. That's the key, shape the battlefield so that no matter what the enemy does in response to your movements he opens a flank/creates a vulnerability you can exploit. Creating no win situations for the enemy at every step of the way which irrevocably serve to further your grand strategic goals should always be your aim. I think my game vs Damian shows this pretty well.


Overall though I'd be concerned that you are prosecuting this war without first deciding the weight you will give to India ( or elsewhere ). I think that needs to be decided ASAP. What's your number 1 priority for which you will rob other areas of their support irrespective of the consequences for those areas?

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 12/29/2008 1:03:36 AM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 1:01:41 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I agree with 2nd ACR about the kitchen sink.

Your objective is to achieve auto-victory, which essentially means you are looking to have a 4 x 1 by January 1, 1943 or thereabouts (if memory serves). That's not long into the game and the Allies really can't fight you straight up that early in the game.

So, focus on objectives that will help you achieve that margin (a conquest of India being one), ignore the things that won't help you, and minimize areas where your opponent can involve you in a costly and troublesome war of attrition (China).

You'll need your carriers in the Indian Ocean early on, but do your best to achieve a state of success in India such that you can handle transportation to and from India via LRCAP so that you have your carriers in the Pacific to keep the Americans honest.

If the Japs are able to knock out the Brits in India - or close to it - they they also pose a threat to the Chinese from the South. At that point in the game you might be able to move on China.

But, truly, I think China simply distracts you from your objective of achieving auto-victory. If you miss on that, you're going to get whacked, but then don't the Japs get whacked in any game in which the Allies survive auto-victory?

Edited to correct numerous typos.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/29/2008 1:06:28 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 1:15:22 AM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		With India being your #1 priority, what must happen before you send the "kitchen sink" in that direction??

How much of the SRA must be conquered before this happens??
1) Malaya/Singapore??
2) Java??
3) Luzon??
4) The rest of the Philippines??
5) Timor??
6) Landing(s) on northern Australia??

Do you have a tentative date for the invasion of India??

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Post #: 46
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 4:50:11 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I wish,

That we could leave the players to find their own strategies and make their own mistakes.

As it is they have the advantage of having played the game a number of times, an advantage which wasnt available IRL.

Plus the natural enmity between the Army & Navy should see differing objectives & approaches.


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Post #: 47
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 6:29:23 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Great commentary fellas.

Jeff--Any AAR I write in serves as a discussion bed for strategy, tactics, and the Japanese economy.  In many ways Nemo, Michael, Dan, and 2nd ACR (plus others who jump in periodically) serve as the General Board/Staff in the Imperial Liason Conferences.  Advice, comments, and insights are most welcome.  Course that doesn't mean the Army or Navy Minister will follow ANY of it!   

This is the fun of a 2x2.  Brad and I have to hammer out some sort of Operational Plan, cooperate, and see it through.  This situation makes it much closer to the reality of the time.  It isn't the same but feels like it.  For example--The idea of throwing 70% of the Army into India scares the heck out of the guy watching the Pacific; however, the chances of spectacular success also beckons enticingly. 

Just got the Dec 8th Turn in and run.  The Gods of War are still favoring Japan after a great opening day with a solid second day of sinkings.

Combat Report
December 8, 1941

The following bases were taken against either no or token opposition:  Aparri, Vigan, Batan, and Davao in the Philippines.  Guam fell as well.

The major action of the day was fought around sinking as many of the Allied ships fleeing Manila Bay as possible.  To this extent the Japanese Combined Arms did quite well. 

1.  CarDiv2 swung way south towards Jolo and hit 2 of 3 US DD fleeing the Philippines. 
2.  The Mini-KB sank an AO, AS, and hit another AS. 
3.  The field day was held by the 4 small STF (1 CL and 3 DD each) situated on many of the egress points. 
a.  CL Tama's TF sank an AK and AS. 
b.  CL Kiso's TF sank 2 AK and a PG. 
c.  CL Kinu's group sank 3 AK and a MSW with damage to a further 3 AK.   
d.  CL Yura's TF sank 3 AK.
4.  14 Nells from Saigon hit the US DDs putting at least 1 Torp into each of the 3 ships.
5.  SS jump into the act as well:
a.  Ro-34 hits an AK
b.  I-155 gets whacked by the 3 US DD during the night before they are hit.  I-155 heading to Saigon for repairs.
c.  I-153 sinks a PG and MSW
d.  I-162 hits an AO with 1 Torp
e.  I-165 hits an AK near Balikpapan
f.  Should note that I-156 put a Torp into CL Tromp on the 7th.

The Allies get into the action with S-36 hitting an AK at Aparri and getting smacked in return by 3 DC causing minor damage.

A massive air raid nails Maila Bay on the 8th.  A total of 79 Zero and 122 Betty/Nells crush the Harbor facilities inflicting 1,111 Casualties and considerable damage to the Port.  A force of 20 P-40 intercept the incoming force but are wiped from the sky by the Escorting Zeros.  For the loss of a single Betty, the American fighters are decimated for a second straight day with 10 P-40s being shot down.  Unfortunately the Bombers have to attack land targets since the Bay is empty...

The bomber force at Formosa splits up a little bit to catch shipping fleeing to the east of the Philippines.  Bombers fly into Naha and Saipan to punnish any ships moving into their range.  The remaining Bombers shift to Naval Attack.

The Kido Butai works to repair damaged aircraft and will swing south of Johnston Atoll on its way to the Marshalls.  A Glen-SS reported some shipping NW of Palmyra so it is worth a look.  To the disappointment of Adm Nagumo, BB Pennsylvania remains a float...

Totals:  For the day 18 ships are sunk--1 DD, 10 AK, 2 AS, 2 PG, 2 MSW, and 1 AO.  Another dozen or so are hit and damaged.

Planning
Adm Yamaguchi loves being aggressive and he gets his wish.  CarDiv2 will move to the NE of Balikpapan and take a swipe at any shipping there.  Perhaps some American warships might be hanging around.  There is a chance of counterattack here so CAP is at 60% and we'll see what comes.  A pair of AO are nearly finished loading at Palau and will depart tomorrow to refuel CarDiv2.

Invasion TF
1.  The Wake Island Force departs with an escort of 2 CA, 2 CL, and 6 DD.  Nearly 6,000 Infantry should take care of those Marines.
2.  Tarawa and Nauru TF will depart tomorrow for their targets.
3.  At Truk the following takes place:
a.  Admiralties TF with an NLF
b.  Madang, New Guinea TF with an NLF
c.  Kavieng TF carrying an SNLF and Construction Btn.  Since this force might be attacked, CL Kashima and a DD ride as escort.

4th Fleet HQ at Truk hopes these TF sailing with little escort will draw an Allied response.  In Truk's Harbor sits 2 BC, 4 CA, 2 CL, and 12 DD ready to provide a 'surprise.'

Operation Fortitude SOUTH
As per Brad and I's conversation 4 Infantry Divisions in Manchuria begin planning for the Invasion of Eastern Australia.  There are 2 planning for Cairns and 2 more planning for Townsville.  Hopefully Allied intelligence will pick-up on this...
 


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/29/2008 6:47:17 AM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 6:45:53 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

With India being your #1 priority, what must happen before you send the "kitchen sink" in that direction??

How much of the SRA must be conquered before this happens??
1) Malaya/Singapore??
2) Java??
3) Luzon??
4) The rest of the Philippines??
5) Timor??
6) Landing(s) on northern Australia??

Do you have a tentative date for the invasion of India??


Michael brings up a very good question here. Prior to India, I think we must take Singapore and be well on our way to winning Java. Java is the key. I think that 2 Inf Div and a Brigade would be enough to take the island.

After Singapore falls (say Jan 15th) I think all of the Malaya Army can make the initial assault into India. As soon as Java falls then another wave of reinforcements can be added. This would make the force attacking at least 8 Inf Div strong (2 in Burma, 4 in Malaya, and 2 in Java).

The remaining troops would be occupied with the Philippines and Noumea Operations. Figure 2 of the remaining Inf Div in the Philippines while another is in the South Pacific.

I have the South Seas Force and 56th Inf Div as the major troops in the SE Pacific. They should be enough to take Rabaul, Port Moresby, and Noumea. It is my hope that by attacking strongly here from the beginning we can make FOW (Steve) think that Brad and I have changed our operational plan. Add the 4 Inf Div prepping for Aussieland and maybe they will focus there before the hammer falls on India and Burma.

By my count this leaves us only 1 of our original 12 Inf Div open for movement.

Nemo is correct in saying that the KB must move into Indian waters at some point. The smaller carriers will not be enough unless we get lucky early against the Royal Navy. Don't know if I can abandon the Central Pacific by taking all of the Kido Butai west to India but that would be the best option.

Perhaps I can use them to back-up the Noumea assault and then head for the Indian Ocean? If the 6 CV play a dominant role covering these landings then the Allies will continue to think they are present here while they are moving elsewhere. It is worth a try...


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Post #: 49
The Herd Flees! - 12/29/2008 6:53:36 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		The Philippines...





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 50
RE: The Herd Flees! - 12/29/2008 1:53:05 PM   
JeffroK


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Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Jeff--Any AAR I write in serves as a discussion bed for strategy, tactics, and the Japanese economy.  In many ways Nemo, Michael, Dan, and 2nd ACR (plus others who jump in periodically) serve as the General Board/Staff in the Imperial Liason Conferences.  Advice, comments, and insights are most welcome.  Course that doesn't mean the Army or Navy Minister will follow ANY of it!   

But it becomes detailed advice on the strategy and tactics that have been proven to work, a total impossibility IRL and from my point of view, an abuse of the game system. But thats how too many operate here.

This is the fun of a 2x2.  Brad and I have to hammer out some sort of Operational Plan, cooperate, and see it through.  This situation makes it much closer to the reality of the time.  It isn't the same but feels like it.

No, the fun of a 2x2 should be you and your partner pitting your wits against a similar team, not using the assorted experience of players who have already tried various strategy using a system where "all of the beans" have already been counted.


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Post #: 51
RE: The Herd Flees! - 12/29/2008 2:22:03 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

The remaining troops would be occupied with the Philippines and Noumea Operations. Figure 2 of the remaining Inf Div in the Philippines while another is in the South Pacific.


IMO, I look at taking Malaya, Java, and Luzon before heading to India. Just by reading Damian's AAR to reinforce the belief that leaving about 2000 Assault Value on Luzon is not a good strategy. It took him till August 42 for it to fall. There is plenty of Oil at Manila and enough Resources to keep him in supply.

I would look for an early March 42 to invade India. You will have those carrier you have accelerated available.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 52
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 2:49:36 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I wish,

That we could leave the players to find their own strategies and make their own mistakes.

As it is they have the advantage of having played the game a number of times, an advantage which wasnt available IRL.

Plus the natural enmity between the Army & Navy should see differing objectives & approaches.



There are two circumstances in which I would agree:

1) If I was reading the other side's AAR and was thus able to base my comments in this AAR with that knowledge.
2) The other team was newbs so that this was "piling on."


I don't know if our strategies "are proven to work" since I've never tried them. It's just ideas based upon my experience.

I also don't think this game will get all that far anyhow. The 2 x 2 format is slow and AE will probably come out before this game gets six months into the war (or we hope).

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 53
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 3:18:14 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		JeffK,

In your opinion. I know, myself, that I wouldn't post an AAR if it didn't cause some discussion as I enjoy discussing strategy and options etc. Different strokes for different folks.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 54
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 3:18:35 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Dan's words are probably quite right in all reality.

Brad--What do you think about Michael's thoughts regarding the Philippines?



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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 55
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 5:23:08 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The input here is good, let's play it by ear on the Phillipines.

I would bet the farm they will make a last stand at Manila, with a possible interim stand at Baguio. Even if the supplies run out, you still need a 2x attack in an urban hex to make everyone surrender. Maybe we finish the job sooner. We don't have to decide quite yet, 4 divisions are ticketed for Luzon in December, should be plenty to drive them back into Manila and secure Clark.

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Post #: 56
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 7:27:45 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		We can also continue to hit Manila and keep the Forts from getting built.  That will help some.

Shouldn't 4 Inf Div be enough to knock out the Luzon Forces fairly quickly?  It has been so long since I was at the BEGINNING of the war!

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(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 57
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 10:02:54 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Manila can be a huge pain in the butt.........4 can take it, but they will get butchered. Best thing to do, is you can land at legaspi and drive north to Manila with 2 div........that will totally unhinge his defenses. He will have to fall back to Manila or be forced to Bataan if you get to Manila before him.

You can use the 4 divisions to make him go to Manila.....once he is there, you can always use 2 to bottle him up and proceed to use 100+ Helens and Sally's to bomb him non stop. This one frees up 2 div for use elsewhere.......you can always come back and finish off Manila after Java is secured etc. The key is to keep hitting his airfields and ports non stop to prevent forts and to destroy supplies.

I doubt I would allow Manila to hold until Aug 42, but you can free up 2 divisions pretty quick for use elsewhere. I would sometimes rotate units to Manila and have them deliberate attack a few times to get the experience levels up. Mainly the small regiments/brigades that have 50 experience etc.......I prefer my frontline units to be 80+ experience before being placed on the frontline. They take losses, but gain valuable combat experience in a safer location than being on a critical frontline base that I can not afford to lose. Ground troop and a/c training base.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 58
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 10:30:24 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Manila can be a huge pain in the butt.........4 can take it, but they will get butchered. Best thing to do, is you can land at legaspi and drive north to Manila with 2 div........that will totally unhinge his defenses. He will have to fall back to Manila or be forced to Bataan if you get to Manila before him.

You can use the 4 divisions to make him go to Manila.....once he is there, you can always use 2 to bottle him up and proceed to use 100+ Helens and Sally's to bomb him non stop. This one frees up 2 div for use elsewhere.......you can always come back and finish off Manila after Java is secured etc. The key is to keep hitting his airfields and ports non stop to prevent forts and to destroy supplies.



Well stated, this is basically the plan. The 2nd and 4th Divisions are on their way to Legaspi, with tanks and artillery; I anticipate a landing on or about the 15th. I don't think we can "muscle" Manila to surrender, generally it seems they surrender when the supplies run out.

I initially thought of just landing two divisions up north and setting up airbases, but the more I think, the more you have to "come strong" just to force them to withdraw to Manila or whatever the last stand area is (though Manila is probably the best). I like that wrinkle on using inexperienced troops, maybe we swap out the experienced units and bring some guys in from China to mop-up.



< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 12/29/2008 10:34:16 PM >

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Post #: 59
RE: Strategic Vision - 12/29/2008 10:43:24 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Manila can be a huge pain in the butt.........4 can take it, but they will get butchered. Best thing to do, is you can land at legaspi and drive north to Manila with 2 div........that will totally unhinge his defenses. He will have to fall back to Manila or be forced to Bataan if you get to Manila before him.

You can use the 4 divisions to make him go to Manila.....once he is there, you can always use 2 to bottle him up and proceed to use 100+ Helens and Sally's to bomb him non stop. This one frees up 2 div for use elsewhere.......you can always come back and finish off Manila after Java is secured etc. The key is to keep hitting his airfields and ports non stop to prevent forts and to destroy supplies.

I doubt I would allow Manila to hold until Aug 42, but you can free up 2 divisions pretty quick for use elsewhere. I would sometimes rotate units to Manila and have them deliberate attack a few times to get the experience levels up. Mainly the small regiments/brigades that have 50 experience etc.......I prefer my frontline units to be 80+ experience before being placed on the frontline. They take losses, but gain valuable combat experience in a safer location than being on a critical frontline base that I can not afford to lose. Ground troop and a/c training base.



I would have no problem to see Manila still being Allied in aug 43! In my game against Miller I refused from attacking his troops in Manila and now they have been starving there since 5 months being bombed by fighters, bombers and dive bombers daily. All I use to keep them bottled up are a couple of second class small IJN units, all in all perhaps 400 assault points. That´s easily enough to hold the enemy back with the urban bonus.

I´m refusing to do those urban assaults, it just wrecks your troops. Let the enemy starve there, even if it takes two years. I don´t need Manila at all...

And my opponent´s troops must be starving big style on the map as he loses 10 points for ground losses on average every day that sees no other fights.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/29/2008 10:45:07 PM >

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Post #: 60
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