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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!!

 
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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 5:51:50 AM   
John 3rd


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Ohhhhhh...I SEE how this is.  Two peanuts from the gallery jump in!   

Dan--Bagdad Bob?

Michael--My AOs are busy hauling FUEL!  Radical idea when it comes to having AOs actually do their job.

There is 44,000 Fuel unloading at Canton and the AOs are coming up from Truk carrying nearly 60,000 fuel.  They are just...ahhhh...little out of position at the moment. 

Everything was fine with my fuel state until the DAMNED AI decided to fuel ALL DDs from the CVs! 


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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 2:53:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Dan--Bagdad Bob?



Yeah. Go back and read your post for the day Yamato was sunk. You begin: "On a day that sees landings at both Trincomalee and Palmyra, the Japanese are somewhat surprised to find 60% of the US Carrier fleet ENE of Palmyra.

Then, in the combat screen box just below, you begin: "Hot damn! We have found the US Fleet!"

You are Bagdad Bob.

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Post #: 932
RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 3:00:27 PM   
John 3rd


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OTAY!



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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 6:57:18 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm going to start calling John, "Bagdad Bob."


That is seriously funny.


"We have them surrounded in their tanks"


Without Yamato as a bomb magnet, it might have been really ugly for the Jap landing forces. Good to see the Yanks are fighting back. I'm not sure I agree with their idea of splitting their carriers.

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Post #: 934
RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 7:26:34 PM   
Q-Ball


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July 9, 1942
India Front

Trincomalee

Japanese forces have stormed ashore at Trincomalee. 4th Div, 14th Bde, and a Tank Unit; should be enough to clear the island. We lost more ships than I would have liked to mines and CD guns, despite our prior bombardments taking out the 9.2 in, there were still enough 6-in to make life miserable. Figure to lose about 5 escorts and around 6-8 transports by the time it's done. First attack tommorow.

Karachi

Another large raid on Karachi; for two days, I have made a real attempt to shut down Karachi, from Ahmadebad. Today, I lost 3 Zeros and 17 Oscars, in return for 18 P-40s and 9 Mohawks in the air, plus another 40 various planes on the ground. I have rotated in some fresh units, another couple days of this, and we should have the place shut down.

Burma

The epic battle of 35,29 is about wrapped up; only one unit remains, with 4 others having surrendered already. Once we are done, this will free up some units for service elsewhere.

Palmyra

Suffice to say, we had a land battle and a naval battle. One went well for the Empire, the other didn't. No surprise spoiling, I'll let John recount the details.........

But it was major battle



< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 4/27/2009 7:44:08 PM >


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The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 7:57:24 PM   
John 3rd


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Combat Report
July 9, 1942

The early morning hears the start of many Japanese plane engines prior to sunrise. Vice-Admiral Nagumo doesn't expect to find the Americans today due to his overwhelming number of carriers spread around him. His CS/BB/CA/CL launch nearly 40 Floatplanes to search for the American Fleet.

While they fan out to look, Nagumo wastes no time bringing his Strike Planes on deck and orders for a second strike to be readied in the hangar decks. Though a risk, Nagumo is fully confident in his ships, their doctrine, and capabilities.

This day's action will fully justify his Supreme Confidence.

Japanese Kido Butai:
0655
An American Dauntless is spotted by Japanese CAP over the Fleet

0700
Joyfully realizing that the Americans have STAYED in the area, Nagumo orders the Strike Force into the air. He knows it is only a matter of time for his Scouts to report in.

0705
The Japanese begin launching what will total 73 Zeros, 69 Vals, and 162 Kates.

0708
Chitose's Scout 7 radios "Large enemy TF range 135 miles, bearing 190*, Speed 24 Knots. Fleet appears to have 2 CV, 10 CA/CL, and 10 DD. They are launching planes."

0740
The launch is complete and the KB steers a direct course for the American Fleet. CAP begins to be beefed up.

0845
A single squadron of American Avengers is spotted closing on the Japanese Fleet. There is a total of 106 Zeros flying CAP. Senior Fighter Pilot Itaya of Akagi orders the Zeros from CarDiv2 to attack this formation of 15 planes.

0847-0855
The American Squadron is destroyed as numerous Zeros splash plane after plane. At least 10 are directly shot down before the pilots flee for their lives.

0852
A Squadron of Dauntlesses with strong Fighter Escort is seen advancing from a more northerly axis. As the planes appear to be attack CarDiv1, Itaya personally leads the attack upon this group.

0900
The Second Attack Wave begins to be spotted for immediate launch.

0856-0910
Nearly all the remaining planes not shooting down the Avengers swarm this formation of 18 Wildcats and 17 SBD. The American Fighters are no match for the swarms of Japanese Zeros and they begin to fall rapidly. Fully 16 Wildcats and 9 Dauntless fall to the Zeros.

This being said, 8 Dauntlesses survive to push over into their dives. Half choose to attack Nagumo's flagship and the other 4 go after smaller Shoho. Both Carriers are veterans and heel into tight turns to starboard. The bombs dropped against Akagi do not even come close; however, Shoho takes 3 near misses while managing to shot down a single Dauntless.

Shoho radios that she has not taken any real damage.

0859-0915
The Japanese CAP is nearly saturated at this point in time. Another lone squadron of SBD are spotted approaching from the NW and only Shokaku/Zuikaku's Zeros manage to interpose themselves in time. Without any Wildcats to defend them 13 Dauntlesses of Bombing-6 are shot down and the remaining 3 run for home.

0915
Admiral Nagumo orders the 2nd Wave launched against the American Forces. Originally this Attack Force was to consist of 40 Zero, 45 Val, and 45 Kate; however, the aerial attack upon the Fleet has caused nearly all the Zeros to be launched for CAP protection. Only 6 remain to provide escort. The Strike Force--as is--is ordered into the air.

RESULTS for American Morning Attacks: 6 Zero lost in exchange for 16 F4F, 23 SBD, and 10 Avengers. No damage sustained by Japanese.

0915-0932
The 2nd Wave is launched and recovery of CAP begins.

0940-1015
The 1st Strike Wave hits the American Fleet. Commander Fuchida relays the joyous results to the Fleet.

1110-1147
2nd Wave Leader Tomonaga conducts the attack and radios further good news.

1208-1230
1st Wave is recovered and ordered to be re-armed for an afternoon strike.

1310-1320
2nd Wave recovered.

1430-1510
Afternoon Strike Wave launched consisting of 65 Zero, 95 Val, and 134 Kate.

1640-1730
Fuchida carefully coordinates the attack to do as much damage as possible to the surviving American ships.

1815-1850
Afternoon Strike lands and sake is ordered for all the flight crews!

1900
As the results are being tabulated throughout the Fleet, Nagumo orders the carriers to a slow cruising speed reflecting the serious fuel concerns he now has to deal with. Vice Admiral Yamaguchi signals that his carriers will remain to finish the job even if they have to be "towed back to Canton!"

The American Fleet

0940-1015
Commander Fuchida guides his Aerial Armada unerringly to the American Fleet. Through his binoculars he spies the American Fleet and begins to order the attacks. He is fully confident that moment shall be remembered in Japanese history as a glorious day for the Empire.

Perhaps a bit of overconfidence does hit the Japanese. A full Chutai of Zeros are jumped by the 23 F4F flying CAP over the American formation. With great rapidity 7 Zeros are shot down without hardly firing a shot. The enraged Japanese Fighter pilots immediately make the Americans pay for their attack by dropping 21 Grummans from the sky. Two manage to get through the Escorts and shot down a lone Val.

Akagi's twin Kate Daitai are led by the legendary Murata. They break into fast, shallow dives and aim for the port side American carrier. It is the USS Hornet. Though AA is fearsome, Murata's pilots hold their formations and drive in with a classic hammer and anvil attack. Glancing up, Murata spots Akagi's Vals plummeting down at the same time. Hornet hasn't a chance. She is rapidly struck by 2 bombs and then 5 torpedoes rip into her port side with another 3 crushing her starboard. The ship--still under assault by other Daitai--rapidly sinks.

Not to be outdone the elite veterans of the Dutch East Indies and Indian Ocean, CarDiv2's pilots crush the USS Enterprise in similar fashion. A more balanced assault culminating with 5 bombs and 6 Torpedoes sends her to her watery grave as well.

Seeing the results, Fuchida tries to divert as many planes as possible to attack the supporting ships of the TF. Several hits are scored but Fuchida is disappointed as bomb-after-bomb and missile-after-missile crashes into the sinking carriers.

1110-1147
Strike Leader Tomonaga brings his 90 Strike Planes into the area and they continue the work started by the 1st Wave. Several American cruisers are seriously hit before the wave heads for home.

1640-1730
Fuchida orders only a single Daitai of Kates and Vals to attack at any one point during this assault. He makes sure that the damage is spread around as much as possible. It is believed that between 8-10 American cruisers are damaged and/or sunk during this attack.

The most visual moment of the day occurs when a group of Shokaku's Kates put a Torpedo into the side of the USS Vincennes. The ship--literally--explodes from a main gun magazine hit early in this attack. It is later found out that only 11 men survive the volcanic explosion.

Japanese Kido Butai:
2000
The results are carefully tallied from the long day of operations. The conclusive numbers end up being the following:

CVs Enterprise and Hornet SUNK
CAs Vincennes and San Fransisco SUNK
CLs Phoneix and Nashville SUNK

CAs New Orleans, Astoria, and Minneapolis heavily damaged
CL Honolulu is heavily damaged
2 DDs were hit by a single Torpedo as well and are presumed to in sinking condition.

Japanese Aerial Losses: 15 Zero, 2 Val, and 20 Kates

NO DAMAGE TO JAPANESE CVs!!!


Banzai BABY!







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/27/2009 8:08:59 PM >


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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 8:05:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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Congrats, John and Q-Ball.  This is really the first hard lick (in my opinion) that the Allies have taken in the game (this is not a criticism of you guys, because you've tried for Heaven's sake, but they've just pulled back so far that you haven't been able to land any solid punches) [well...I guess New Zealand, India, and Ceylon are fairly solid).

I think we all thought the American CVs would pull back after sinking Yamato.  What are your opponents thinking?

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Post #: 937
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 8:11:50 PM   
John 3rd


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I don't know but it is GREAT! 

I will order the KB's non-fuel starved CVs to stick around and finish off as many American ships as possible.

This is serious damage to the Allied Fleet and will enable me to begin rotating the CVs home for upgrade and repair.  It is a different ballgame now.  We just have to make sure to not get too cocky...



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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 8:23:30 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Congrats, John and Q-Ball.  This is really the first hard lick (in my opinion) that the Allies have taken in the game (this is not a criticism of you guys, because you've tried for Heaven's sake, but they've just pulled back so far that you haven't been able to land any solid punches) [well...I guess New Zealand, India, and Ceylon are fairly solid).

I think we all thought the American CVs would pull back after sinking Yamato.  What are your opponents thinking?


Paul's comments indicate that he meant to pull them back, but they didn't for whatever reason. Maybe he will look at the TF settings. They only moved 1 hex or so, so even if was a DD top-off issue, they would have moved further.

Staying would have been a collosal mistake. Committing a division of 2 CV in an area where there was sure to be IJN CV's was risky enough. The right decision would have been to take that sinking of Yamato and RUN!

Not to put a damper on John's great Naval victory, the landing itself on Palmyra went pretty badly; CD guns really chewed up the transports, and the troops got ashore in poor shape. The Atoll Shock Attack was 0-1, and wasn't too close to a 1-1. Not sure how many supplies got ashore, but that is a problem. The damage is so bad, I think we'll lose every single transport.

Still, will gladly trade the land defeat for the Naval victory.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 4/27/2009 8:25:58 PM >


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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 8:45:33 PM   
flaggelant


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quote:

"Pilots hold their formations and drive in with a classic hammer and anvil attack"



I love it when that happens!!


On the land invasion;
with KB on cruising speed i'd say you can get in a really heavy bombardment on Palmyra before leaving the invasion force to itself again

and on supply;
can't Nells/ Betty's make a supply run towards the place (long range bombers aren't only good for sinking ships you know )

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Post #: 940
Orders - 4/27/2009 9:10:48 PM   
John 3rd


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Here is a screenshot of the Victory Table after the results of the day.

Good comments as always.

Nagumo's Orders:
1. I order the formation of the Bombardment TF of 2 BC, 3 CA, and 3 DD to hit Palmyra and stay there. That should help keep the Allies jumbled up as well as mess around with the CV planes now residing on the island.

2. Create several TF out of the remains of the invasion force. Stop the last 500 troops from offloading (triggering another Shock Attack) and only order ships with supplies to offload. The 2 Inf Brig have some supply and what we drop off tomorrow (only about 1300) should carry for a bit.

3. The 3rd Inf Brig will arrive off Palmyra in 2 days. I will wait until a couple of AK arrive to drop off supply prior to landing the last set of Infantry.

4. As noted below but I will repeat:
a. CarDiv1 heads for Canton to refuel. ALL their Vals and Kates are shifted to ASW Attack. There are enough Allied SS around here to keep ones feet from getting wet!
b. CarDiv2 and CarDiv5 move NE of Palmyra to finish off stragglers and cripples.

The island will fall quickly. There is only the CD unit and two Base Force present behind Sz-6 Forts.





Attachment (1)

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RE: Orders - 4/27/2009 9:18:31 PM   
bigbaba


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gratz for a stunning victory, john.

it buys you time before the allied can launch another CV-attack.


< Message edited by bigbaba -- 4/27/2009 9:22:49 PM >

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RE: Orders - 4/27/2009 9:51:20 PM   
Panther Bait


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I don't know for sure, but I doubt the Wildcats (or the Seagulls) can make the hop to Hawaii or Johnston.  The SBDs and Avengers might possibly have the transfer range.

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RE: Orders - 4/27/2009 9:56:50 PM   
Q-Ball


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I am also puzzled as to why they didn't have more LBA on the island. Maybe they were worried about them getting torched on the airstrip by BB's, not sure.

I am curious what Paul says when he gets the turn.

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RE: US CVs at Palmyra!!! - 4/27/2009 10:26:06 PM   
frank1970


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


Ship Damage:
BB Yamato 41B and 6 TT---SUNK!!!
CA Chikuma 3B--On Fire
CL Yura 3B--Heavy Damage
CL Kitakami 1 Torp--On Fire
DD Shigure 1B




Sometimes I hate it, when I am right.


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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 10:27:13 PM   
frank1970


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd



CVs Enterprise and Hornet SUNK
CAs Vincennes and San Fransisco SUNK
CLs Phoneix and Nashville SUNK

CAs New Orleans, Astoria, and Minneapolis heavily damaged
CL Honolulu is heavily damaged
2 DDs were hit by a single Torpedo as well and are presumed to in sinking condition.

Japanese Aerial Losses: 15 Zero, 2 Val, and 20 Kates

NO DAMAGE TO JAPANESE CVs!!!





On the other hand ....

Congratulations!

This one fired back on the Allies!


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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/27/2009 10:33:10 PM   
John 3rd


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Paul might be contemplating heavy alcohol consumption right now!

If the Battle had stopped at Day One I would have been disappointed in losing Yamato but the losses sustained today--with more to come tomorrow--surely mark this as a big victory.  In being reduced to only 3 CVs, the Americans will have to be VERY careful in what they choose to do.  Conversely it allows us more freedom of movement.  Brad can keep his CVs over in the IO and try to sink the damned Royal Navy while I rotate the KB for the next two months.

The fear of a Central Pacific/North Pacific thrust has to be seriously downgraded too...


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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/28/2009 1:35:26 AM   
ny59giants


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My big question would be why the Allies sent only 2 CVs to an area that may have contained most of the Japanese carrier strength?? At this stage in the war, I would still keep the American CVs in 5 separate CV TF with plenty of support ships. If KB did hit them, then only 1 TF would be the target. 

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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/28/2009 2:12:31 AM   
Hornblower


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Thoughts and observations.
First of all congratulations on the Naval Battle of Palmyra.
I agree that the sinking of 2 of the 5 available CV’s seriously curtails any thoughts of a Central Pacific push – provided nothing occurs to even the score – until early ’43 when the Essex/Indy’s start to show.  Any advances he makes must now be under the B-25/26 Cover, and with all the bases seemingly in your hands, the CenPac/SouPac will be quite for a few months. 

The only area that he can use his LBA’s under fighter cover is the North Pacific.  I suspect that he’ll try to use the Aleutians with his LBA/Fighters and baby his CV’s.

The fact that there was no Infantry stationed at Palmyra, no LB’s and not a significant amount of fighters leads me to believe that it was never Paul’s intention to fight a pitched battle there.  There has been ample time to move a good number of the available fighters and bombers at pearl /west coast to there.   The fact that you’re not running into them makes me doubt that Palmyra was the line in the sand.

And he only hit you with 2 cv’s??  if he was going to commit the Fleet to a defense of the island, it wouldn’t be with just 2 CV’s.  he was trying a quick stab to knock you off balance, that was it..  

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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/28/2009 2:23:06 AM   
John 3rd


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Both of you are correct and this might explain the 'Battle.'  It had to be a mistake.  Those CVs should ever have stayed there.  Additionally they were in one TF together.  There must have been the 2 CV, 8 CA/CL, and 8-10 DD.  That is a strenge combination of whips for this point in the war.




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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/28/2009 2:41:39 AM   
Q-Ball


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That's a good point John; very strange TF config. With that many cruisers, easily could have been split into two, although might still have been same result.

The USN has lost 8 CA and 4 modern CL, that's quite a few cruisers.

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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day TWO! - 4/28/2009 5:00:51 AM   
Hornblower


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well as my golf buddy says "its sometimes better to be lucky, then good."  Normally he says then when he makes par.

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The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 5:43:40 AM   
John 3rd


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The Battle closes with the death of the cripples from the previous day. It is quite a scorecard!






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/28/2009 6:20:03 AM >


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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 8:00:29 AM   
Nemo121


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The TF composition, the fact that it stayed around for Day 2 and the fact that your opponent strategically dispersed and then tactically concentrated his CVs ( exactly the combination which lead the Japanese to disaster at Midway ) needs no other explanation than inexperience and poor play. There's no need to complicate it more than that.

This failure to concentrate at the correct point at the correct point is the stand-out error they ( and others in other AARs ) keep making. By not concentrating enough force at the crucial point they just provide nice morsel-sized forces to be gobbled up and swallowed...

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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 12:07:08 PM   
flaggelant


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inexperience & poor play could also be translated into a failed tactical manouvre

when you look at the 1 CV up north i'd say it was bait to lure the KB in, and away from Palmyra, creating a enviroment that would have
been fitting for the allied CV's to operate under.


John actually did mention that he was expecting the main push to come from the north if i'm correct.
And knowing Johns aggressive style, they must have guessed that KB would be moving in for the kill.

What they didn't know was that the next invasion was allready planned, loaded and on its way, this is what probably went wrong.
a misguess on the aggresiveness of the Japanese player (or on how impulsive the reaction to finally seeing an allied fleet would be).





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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 12:16:37 PM   
Nemo121


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Flaggelant,

If these opponents had shown themselves to be cunning, crafty and capable of putting synchronised operations together then I might grant you the possibility that they were also attempting maskirovka operations BUT these opponents have shown none of these things. The best they've shown was in their work in India where they retreated well but even there it was less their good plan than the Japanese messing up their breach and exploitation phase that allowed their good fortune.

It is a common error for many players to "see" strategic deception and strategic plans within plans when facing an opponent. WHat they are really doing is engaging in the normal human psychological strategies of projection and displacement. That it is a normal reaction doesn't make it correct though.

Your explanation assumes competence, strategic misdirection and a grasp of timing that these opponents haven't, yet, exhibited. My explanation requires only a coninuation of the lack of strategic concentration ( penny-packeting out CVs ), effective force utilisation and utter lack of deception operations which has been a hallmark of their play until now.

Objectively it is far more likely that they are just continuing to do what they've done all along ( play poorly ) than that they are suddenly turning over a new leaf and showing some hitherto unexpected strategic nous.

In life it has been said that one should never ascribe to deception and brilliance that which can be explained by sloth and incompetence. I would aver that what applies in life applies in-game. On almost every level my explanation is the simpler one and I think that when facing this calibre of opponent you would do well not to wrap yourself up in complicated explanations for every mis-step which can lead you to double-think yourself into impotence. Instead accept it for what it is and concentrate on playing as skillfully as possible yourself even against insipid opposition. After all the true challenge here is to play better than you did last week/month/game and not about the ephemera of "winning".

I'm not saying this to beat up on his opponents or anything. My only concern is that the spread of flawed analysis leads people to just sit in their current comfort zones of play and be happy with what they are achieving which then acts to prevent rigorous self-analysis and improvement. I think its a pity to see people creating comfort myths of brilliant opponent play which then, indirectly, leads them to say "I couldn't have done better against such a great opponent" and just sit, sedately, without improvement at their current level of ability.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 4/28/2009 12:20:07 PM >

(in reply to flaggelant)
Post #: 956
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 6:14:43 PM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline
Nemo makes some excellent points, however I’m inclined to lean more toward Flaggelant’s point of view.  Perhaps its me just giving the benefit of the doubt.  But I find it hard to comprehend that they would offer battle for an island that they apparently didn’t adequately beef up with Infantry and Air assets.  But then again, that could prove Nemo’s point.. 

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 957
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 7:11:15 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
I personally think they split the CVs in order to maximize the chance of "hit and run" pickoffs of isolated Japanese shipping. The first CV strike that sank Yamato had the flavor of a raid, as well as the one up north. I don't think it was anything more than that.

Not that it's a good idea mind you, I think it's a terrible one. Splitting CV's is almost always a bad idea. WITP is a game that really rewards mass more than RL, especially in CV battles.

_____________________________


(in reply to Hornblower)
Post #: 958
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 8:19:30 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
Hornblower --- Ok, let's assume you're right. Does Palmyra LOOK like an island they beefed up to turn into a decisive fight? And if it does ( which by the look of things it isn't ) then why go into a decisive fight to hurt the Japanese with only a small portion of your CVs? If it was a decisive fight then they implemented it foolishly by making the island so easy to take ( 1 x CD unit and 2 x Base Forces is a pathetic defensive force ) , if it wasn't a decisive fight then their committment of CVs was foolish. Either way nothing they've done looks like anything other than poor play.

Q-Ball - IF they were trying a raid why did they hang around for Day 2? I can't come up with anything other than foolishness and poor play as the answer to that.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 959
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 8:34:59 PM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline
Nemo, I guess that’s the crux of the matter.  Was it a meant to be a decisive fight?    If it was, then I agree with you 100% on all your points.  I’m just not sure if it was “planned” to be decisive.   I guess only Q’s and John’s adversary can answer that.    Either way it sure makes for a damn good discussion.  

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 960
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