VictorInThePacific
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Joined: 10/30/2008
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This is the first “real” HCE scenario I have played, thanks to the Demo that the Harpoon people have so kindly made available.
I understand Harpoon Classic quite well, and I am learning to use Harpoon Commander’s Edition, a large part of which is learning how to work the interface with both hands. However, the games have some major differences, such as subs. I have no idea how to deal with subs in HCE, either my own or enemy ones, and this will become obvious in this post. Please feel free to criticize my tactics or anything else; I would welcome it.
I played this scenario just once. I did have a number of save files available, for the primary purpose of preparing this report. In 2 cases, I used them to investigate some interesting side branches. In only one case did I reject a result. That was when several of my units refused to obey orders.
I initially was going to play this as NATO, but I looked at my forces - less than 2 dozen airplanes, most of which have only short-range AA missiles, and then checked out the Soviet forces - NINETY planes, and I decided that this situation is not survivable. As an aside, I treat the information obtained by getting a report on an enemy airbase as reliable and usable (satellite images), while looking at the enemy OB is information that should not be used. So then I decided that I would play the Soviet side, and with those ninety airplanes, crush poor NATO. Alas, it was not to be, because when I started as the Soviet player, I only had 36 airplanes, while NATO had 40! (There is a strong random aspect to this. I went back later and checked: if you play NATO, you get 16, 20, or 24 airplanes, mostly 20, while the USSR gets 90. If you play the USSR, you get 20-44 planes, while NATO gets 32, 40, 48, or 56. I got rather lucky, because while NATO had slightly less than average, I got the maximum number of Fencers, without which the USSR probably has zero chance of winning.)
It wasn’t all fun and games, though. With 90 planes facing 20, even if they are among the worst in the Soviet arsenal, the Soviets can simply do a suicide charge and still have enough left to win the knife fight. <note 1>. The Soviet force I had needs to be used much more delicately. For example, the Flogger Fs were not at all usable until the NATO planes were nearly destroyed. With only 8 Fulcrums, offensive fighter operations are not possible, and with only 16 Fencers, it takes many strikes to kill a NATO base, and it’s very risky. Even basic scouting was an extremely risky proposition.
The Action
First of all, I examined my airbase (Banak). When I got over my shock at realizing that I had far less than the expected 90 planes, and NATO had twice as many planes as expected, I almost quit. But I decided that I might have enough fighters to defend the base against the AI, and enough Fencers to attack the NATO bases against the AI.
Second, I looked at my ships. It’s not a bad little force, except that there is essentially no direct sonar capacity (later I realized that this may be incorrect: see <note 8>), and I have been given to understand that the first convergence zone is not useful. I decided to bring all my ships together for mutual protection, and to hide them until further notice, i.e. all ships stop, and all sensors are off. I also rearranged the 2 formations to bring the ships closer together, and in particular, I moved the ships out of the 2 outer formation zones, to prevent them from moving without my explicit say-so.
Third, I looked at my submarines. As far as I am concerned, Foxtrots and Kilos are just a bunch of obsolete junk. Too slow to run away from a torp or to do significant strategic moving, no long-range weapons, poor sensors, what’s to like? I haven’t got a clue what to do with these units. I expect that if I tried to do any searching with them, I would simply lose them. Therefore I decided that they would simply sit in one place and wait for something to come to them. Well, miraculously, it seems, something did, and some of my subs were able to join the party.
Fourth, I considered the mobile AA assets of my airbase. These units appear to be fairly useless unless an enemy plane flies right over top of them. I just left them in the default location, because I can’t think of anything better to do with them.
Finally, I did my initial air deployment. I put one Hormone B up for surface search in my airbase formation. I also put two Fulcrums in the base formation.
3.5 min after start: NATO planes are detected. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk1.png A Hormone B is launched from the fleet for surface search. A pair of fighters is sent over to the fleet from Banak.
12 min: A whole batch of NATO planes is coming. A second pair of fighters is sent over to the fleet from Banak. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk2.png Many of the NATO planes will have stand-off anti-ship missiles, so the Fulcrums will best be used to kill them outside of launch range.
17.5 min: The NATO planes are too close to my ships! Turn the ship radars on! Grumbles start to fly. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk3.png Note the lightning bolt on some of the NATO planes. I’m not sure exactly what is jamming them. Some of my ships have ECM “weapons”. I’m not sure what the jamming actually does. <note 2> Six Fulcrums are approaching from Banak, leaving only 2 to defend the base.
18 min: And splash 2! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk4.png
25 min: I am using the medium-range missiles from the Fulcrums against Falcons, so that the Grumbles will be used against Hornets, which can hurt my fighters. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk5.png
One Hornet leads a charmed existence, surviving multiple Grumbles. This fighter penetrates right into my formation, and in principle could have shot down my Hormone, which would have been an easy and significant kill.
32.5 min: 7 s earlier, that Hornet was finally shot down. The Hormone is fleeing for home at VL, with radar off, which may help against a Hornet, which has no SS radar. Fulcrum group ZU, Alamos expended, was also fleeing that Hornet. Now it’s time to find out if we can shoot down missiles, too. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk6.png 42 Grumbles are left at this point.
37 min: When the smoke clears, 18 NATO planes (and some anti-ship missiles) have been shot down, for an expenditure of 40 Grumbles and 6 Alamos. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk7.png While the Alamos will be replaced, the Grumbles are gone forever. Only 24 Grumbles are left. Flying airplanes into a Soviet fleet is one way to take out Grumbles. It’s an expensive way, but what are we going to do when the Grumbles are all used up? All ships stop again, and the ship radars are turned off. The Hormone turns its radar on again.
39.5 min: More trouble: inbound missiles. The direction is a bit odd. I’m guessing that they were not launched by planes. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk8.png We are told that those were 8 Harpoons. Is this legitimate information? Perhaps we can analyze the missile flight characteristics. After shooting them down, we have only 16 Grumbles left. We used 8 Grumbles to get 8 hits. 4 Goas were also used, but got 0 hits.
It’s time to move the ships away from this location. They are moving at 10 kn, which is very slow, but I want to maximize my sonar performance, especially since my sonar capacity is so poor. Send the Hormone to check out the area to the west.
Belay that order! There are Falcons somewhere over there. The Hormone flees for home, and the ships turn their radars on again.
60 min: Prepare the first air attack on Narvik. Send a Hormone to scan for low-flying airplanes. Attack with Fencers (SEAD loadout) for maximum stand-off range. It looks like Narvik has a 52 nm SS radar. The AS-11 has a 66 nm range. So we should be able to come in low and invisible.
Send 8 x Fencer (SEAD), in pairs. <note 3> Come in from the NE; the coast looks clear. 2 Harriers are detected somewhere to the NW of Narvik.
1 h 48 min: Fencer group YO has reached launch range. Groups N, M, L are inbound. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giuk9.png It appears to be necessary to send the planes back to base manually once they launch their main weapon. They appear to want to keep going in and attack with cannons or something.
I don’t know what’s up with the unit window artifacts.
1 h 54 min: The first 4 missiles have hit, doing sensor damage to Narvik. The next Fencer group (YN) can’t find targets on the ground. RTB with Fencer groups O, N, and loiter with M, L. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukA.png It’s interesting that the Narvik radar circles are still shown, and they will remain and return for a very long time.
I don’t like this, but: Send in the clowns! To accomplish anything further, the Fencers will have to approach to within 22 nm of Narvik, which is very dangerous!
4 pairs of Fencers (AS-13 Kingbolt, 22 nm range) are sent from Banak. They will approach Narvik from the east, where they are unlikely to encounter NATO planes (not against a human !). A pair of Fulcrums is also sent.
There is a glitch: the 8 x unit window appears to be 4 x (squared) larger than the 16 x window, not twice as big.
2 h 16 min: The Fencers begin their attack run. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukB.png
2 h 22 min: Bombs away! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukC.png
2 h 24 min: Better avoid that Harrier! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukD.png Exit, stage right. DO NOT head straight home after bombing!
2 h 25 min: Fencer group YH launches Kingbolts and heads for the nearest NATO fighter to engage with Aphids. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukE.png Everybody wants to be a dead hero. No, fool, I want you to AVOID that Harrier! Use manual plane control near the target – this appears to be a universal requirement of HCE.
12 Kingbolts were launched; all hit; Narvik is 7% damaged, and I destroyed 1 airplane on the ground. I will need to kill the NATO fighters by main force in order to make progress. As long as they sit on the ground, they will remain a permanent threat to my attack aircraft, and destroying them on the ground looks to be a very slow process.
All Fencers will now be armed with Kingbolts. The Fencers have a pretty decent SS and AS radar, so they should be able to detect threats (or not).
At some point, I will be needing to bomb Narvik at point blank range. My plan is to eliminate the remaining airplanes, etc. at Narvik and then bomb with actual bombs. It is a question of time vs. safety.
Ready 6 Flogger Fs with AS-7 Kerry to obtain some degree of stand-off capacity with these units.
3 h 10 min: Hormone YC is about to RTB when, out of the blue, with an invisible weapon … http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukF.png
WTF ???
<note 4> This is a significant loss, representing 20% of my surface search capacity. That was my reserve helicopter.
Divert attacking Fencer groups XU, XT to the south, and approach Narvik from the east. Stop approaching fighter groups XV, YD.
Ready one pair of Fencers for SEAD to take out the air search radar at Bodo.
3 h 30 min: A strange message is received. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukG.png How would we even know? We can’t see anything. I kept getting this message throughout the game, typically in this situation. I generally responded by diverting my Fencers slightly to the south, but I have no idea what relevance the message has, or if it is legitimate information.
I am not prepared to use the Flogger Fs on ground attack yet. They have to close to within 5 nm to shoot. Defending fighters could just pop out of the base and pick off the Floggers at 10 miles.
3 h 59 min: Fencer stream XO, XN, XM, XL, XK, XJ tries to sneak into attack position. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukH.png Against a human, this would never work. The AI seems to like placing its fighters to the north of Narvik. Maybe it’s worried about my boats. I’m more worried about my boats. My useful SAMs are almost all gone.
4 h 23 min: 3 ARMs hit Bodo, destroying the radar. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukI.png Killed a couple of planes, too. Still see the radar circles, though. But note that there are no radar circles around Narvik.
So far this doesn’t seem to be working so well. With 19.5 hours left, Narvik is only 33% damaged. This is from 8 + 14 = 22 Fencers. We still need to do 67%, twice as much as already, which would mean at least the whole gang of 16 coming in 3 times each. Since each trip takes about 2 h, launch to launch, this will take 6 h, which seems like a long time, and it assumes that none of them ever gets shot down. Still, I’m not prepared to risk the Flogger Fs yet.
Start bringing the boats back south.
5 h 57 min: The third Fencer stream approaches Narvik. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukJ.png Note that the Narvik radar circles are back.
After that strike: Narvik is now at 53% damage. The 20% additional damage was done by 10 Fencers, which is more than I expected. However, I didn’t get any more airplanes. But interestingly enough, I killed a helicopter. I have no idea how that happened, because I was never even aware of its presence. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukK.png
7 h 13 min: Active air defence. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukL.png This is why it is not safe to bring in the Flogger Fs (not that the Fencers are particularly safe!). Fencer groups WI, WH are headed out at low, military. Fencer group WG is inbound at high, afterburner. This wave will score 4% damage.
7 h 25 min: Start scouting to the west of the fleet with Hormone. Ships are now headed west.
7 h 32 min: Belay that order! There are too many invisible NATO fighters floating around. Sending a radiating helicopter out into the wilderness is not a good plan. Bring the Hormone back to the fleet.
7 h 45 min: 14 of 17 Kingbolts hit Narvik (3 were shot down by Sidewinders). Narvik is now 70% damaged, and one more NATO airplane was destroyed.
8 h 56 min: 9 of 12 Kingbolts hit Narvik. 6% damage; no airplanes killed. <note 5>
8 h 57 min: We see you! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukM.png Just as seagulls indicate the presence of land, Lynxes indicate the presence of British ships.
I hope that NATO plane BK hits a tall wave!
8 h 58 min: Start launching the next wave of Fencers to attack Narvik.
9 h 20 min: Seahawk detected near Lynx. 10 Fencers are approaching Narvik.
9 h 29 min: 14 of 20 Kingbolts hit Narvik, doing 14% damage. Still didn’t get any airplane hits.
We now see 4 Lynx SE of our fleet, and there used to be a Seahawk as well. I guess it’s a good thing that I don’t have any subs over there.
9 h 43 min: SOMETHING just drove past my Sverdlov at warp speed. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukN.png I don’t think it was a missile, because a) they usually don’t arrive by themselves, b) I have plenty of detection in the air, and c) the Sverdlov is in the back of the fleet. I guess it was a torpedo. (Now in principle, I would know whether the thing that just flashed by my ship was above or below sea level.) There is very little subsurface detection capacity in this fleet. Launch 1 Helix to the north to investigate. It turns out that the default Helix (depth charge) loadout is the worst possible: worst damage, worst hit probability, and worst range. I can’t afford to rearm my other Helix now because I may need its sonobuoys. The ships will change course to the south. I don’t know what else to do. The only good news in all this is that nothing else is happening right now, so CINC Victor can give this situation my full attention.
9 h 50 min: Check out the active sonar on that Helix! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukO.png Much nicer than the ship passive sonars.
9 h 56 min: Another unknown weapon just flashed past one of my ships. I don’t know what it was. I don’t know which ship.
10 h 12 min: Launch 6 more Fencers against Narvik.
While checking out the message log, I noted a weird message from 9 h 55.5 min. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/weird.png Iney? What’s Iney? At some point I guessed that this might be one of my ships. Turns out that Iney is the name of one of my Nanuchkas. It’s also the name of some obscure town in the Republic of Khakassia, so probably it’s an appropriate name for one of the smallest Russian ships. Am I supposed to know this? So I check out the stats on Iney. It’s down by 2 of 20 Geckos, but that could be explained by the realistic logistics option. However, the AK-630 CIWS has used 10 of its 20 shots. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/iney.png Probably this gun has been shooting at something. Shouldn’t I have been informed of this?
10 h 17 min: Turn on radars on Nanuchka group. Nothing.
10 h 18 min: Turn on (AS) radar on nearby Fulcrum pair. Nothing.
10 h 23 min: We start getting actual ship contacts from the Hormone.
10 h 24 min: All ships stop. There are unknown and invisible threats all around. There doesn’t seem to be any particular reason to go in any particular direction, and I don’t want my fleet to close on the NATO fleet until the planes at Narvik are wiped out and I have had time to bring some airstrikes against the NATO fleet. While this may let subs close on my fleet, I expect that it will also reduce our sonar signature.
10 h 25 min: Turn off radars on Nanuchkas. They aren’t as good as the airplane ones anyway.
10 h 40 min: And while I’m busy with my ships, the Fencers decide to go sightseeing in Narvik, closing to 9 nm. Fortunately, they don’t fly over top of one of these RBS things. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukP.png
10 h 41: Surrounded by bad guys. At least we see some of them. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukQ.png
10 h 42 min: 9 of 12 Kingbolts hit Narvik and get one more airplane. Narvik is now 97% destroyed.
10 h 43 min: “Once more unto the breach, dear friends; once more; Or close the wall up with our Russian dead.” Launch 10 more Fencers at Narvik.
10 h 48 min: These 2 planes are headed for Narvik to refuel. Too bad for them; they will definitely be caught in the final airstrike. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukR.png
11 h 2 min: Ready Fencers that just arrived at Banak for SEAD on the NATO ships. Range is 300 miles or so. We can do it. Yes, we can!
11 h 8 min: There are 7 NATO planes on the ground at Narvik. Probably damage to the facility means that they will not be able to get off the ground before the final missiles hit. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukS.png
11 h 10 min: 3 of 4 Kingbolts hit Narvik. A large explosion is seen and heard. 7 NATO planes are caught in the fireball. And maybe a few more will die because they won’t have enough fuel to make it to Bodo. That’s unlikely, however, because Bodo is only 73 nm from Narvik. 4 Fencers still have weapons, but no reasonable targets. There’s not much point in hunting for ground units near Narvik. Send them back home. Anyway, that’s one major problem dealt with. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukT.png
11 h 18 min: Send Hormone to the west to try to locate NATO ships.
11 h 32 min: 6 Fencers will be ready with AS-11 ARMs in half an hour. 10 more will be ready half an hour later. Of course, the primary targets will be the area defence ships, and they will be hit until they can no longer shoot.
11 h 47 min: There are 6 ships in the NATO fleet: DDG Charles F. Adams, DDG 42/2 Exeter, FFG O.H. Perry, FF Leander 3A, FF Type 22/2 Boxer, FF Oslo. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukU.png The first 3 have area defence SAMs. Lots of missiles, but a slow fire rate. The NATO fleet appears to be fleeing at 25 kn. That’s almost directly towards my Kilo group ZW. Maybe it’s time to move my subs? Or maybe something else sees my subs and the NATO fleet is moving to engage the only target it knows about? <note 6>
The Hormone has gone far enough into the danger zone. Besides, it needs fuel, so back home it goes, low, slow, and silent. All my ships follow the NATO ships at 10 kn. We can’t catch them at this speed, but we don’t want to be running over enemy subs at high speed. The 2 Kilos move to intercept the NATO fleet at 10 knots. They should be in position and stationary (i.e. hiding) well before the NATO ships are in sonar range. The Foxtrot / Juliet group is too far away to engage with torpedos, but maybe the 3 Shaddocks on the Juliet will be useful? After the SEAD missions go in, of course.
There are 8 NATO planes in Bodo. This number appears to be constant. Maybe they don’t have any fuel? Or maybe they have special orders? There don’t appear to be any NATO planes in the air any more, not that I would necessarily know about it.
12 h: There HAVE BEEN 8 NATO planes in Bodo for a long time. Now there are only 6.
12 h 4 min: 6 Fencers head for the NATO fleet. They will swing to the north, coming in low and silent, then pop up with radar on to paint the ships, attacking from the NE. Although we don’t actually know where the ships are, we do see a helicopter. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukV.png
12 h 18 min: 2 Hornets sneak up on our fleet, closing to 20 nm. I think that the only reason we detected them is because they launched missiles. (Later note: apparently they need to turn their radar on in order for the Sparrows to track.) 2 Fulcrums launch Alamos and flee on afterburner. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukW.png The Hormone has no chance at all. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukX.png
Splash 2. The incoming Sparrows seem to disappear as soon as the Hornets die. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukY.png Send a Hormone from Banak to replace the one that just got shot down. Due the reduction in the NATO forces, they are no longer capable of conducting significant offensive operations. Therefore the loss of this Hormone is actually less important than the first one (except for my embarrassment). And, of course, a good Russian just died.
Since I had an autosave game from just before this event started, and good sensors in the vicinity, I later went back to analyze this situation. <note 7>
12 h 26 min: 6 Fencers are heading for the last known location of the NATO helicopter. Still low and silent. Range to target 84 nm. (This is for Aphid range, 4nm.) http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ.png
12 h 32.5 min: 40 miles from target (rear pair of Fencers). Time to pop up and light up. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ1.png 10 more Fencers are en route.
12 h 34 min: There they are! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ2.png
12 h 36 min: After some effort, we get a positive ID on two ships. One of them, the O.H. Perry, is a valid target. One Fencer pair, UB, needs to evade SAMs, which it does on afterburner. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ3.png The O.H. Perry SAMs have a range of 25 nm. My Fencers are parked 30-40 nm away from the Perry and will now whale on it with AS-11 ARMs. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ4.png
12 h 37 min: The NATO fleet gets off 4 Sea Darts from the Type 42/2, 1 Sea Sparrow from the Oslo, and 3 Standard missiles from the O.H. Perry. The Sea Darts and Standard missiles get 1 AS-11 each. 7 AS-11 miss for various reasons. 3 hit. Result: 28% damage plus special ARM damage; speed reduced to 22 kn. Mission accomplished. Fencers RTB. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ5.png
12 h 53 min: The second wave of Fencers approaches the launch point. Even if we don’t have a recent contact, ships are essentially static relative to airplane speeds. This launch point will still be 60 nm from the NATO fleet i.e. outside of Fencer effective radar range. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ6.png
12 h 54 min: Pop up; light up.
12 h 58 min: We find the first ship – the damaged O.H. Perry, left behind to die alone.
13 h: The O.H. Perry is still firing at us. So what did we hit last time?
13 h 1 min: Never mind. Go around it.
13 h 2 min: The Fencers that just evaded Standard missiles on afterburner are low on fuel. They won’t be able to go after the rest of the NATO fleet. Shoot at the O.H. Perry again instead.
13 h 4 min: Fired 8 AS-11 in total. O.H. Perry gets off 4 Standard missiles, killing 3 AS-11. 1 AS-11 hits; O.H. Perry now at 56% damaged, speed 15 kn. 4 Fencers RTB. Remaining 6 Fencers pursue main NATO fleet.
13 h 8 min: SEAD the classical way! Due to ECM (I guess), I can’t get a good ID on the NATO ships (visual on the Oslo, so I know NOT to shoot at that one!). So a Fencer needs to tease out some SAMs and then will flee on afterburner. (Classically, the Wild Weasel or Iron Hand planes would outmaneuver the SAMs, but that is impossible in Harpoon – wrong scale, so we have to make do.) Whatever fired on the Fencer gets whaled on with 12 ARMs. And there he is – AD 3, a Type 42/2 Exeter, with 30 nm Sea Darts. [picture deleted for reasons of national security]
13 h 10 min: Fencers successfully flee from Sea Darts. The Type 42/2 gets off 5 Sea Darts, killing 2 AS-11. The Charles F. Adams gets off 4 Standard missiles, killing 1 AS-11. 4 AS-11 hit the Exeter for 43% damage + ARM specials. Speed reduction to 23 kn. All Fencers RTB, low, slow, and silent.
14 h 9 min: 6 Fencers launching from Banak again. Hormone is moving to the west to help with detection. As long as the NATO planes sit in Bodo, I’m not too worried.
14 h 17 min: Contact is re-established with the wounded O.H. Perry. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ7.png
14 h 31 min: Contact is re-established with the main NATO fleet (well, its helicopters, anyway). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ8.png
14 h 45 min: Lead Fencer is about 40 nm from nearest helicopter. Time to pop up, etc. Note that O. H. Perry doesn’t seem to be able to put up any ECM against Hormone. Fencers are passing by O.H. Perry, 30 nm to the south, outside the range of its SAMs. Kilos have stopped moving and are hiding. Hopefully they have reached a good position. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZ9.png
14 h 47 min: Contact re-established with main NATO fleet. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZA.png
14 h 48 min: We have located the Oslo and the Exeter (by damage status) visually. Two others are still just generic ships, and one is not detected at all. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZB.png Let’s shoot some ARMs at the Exeter and see what happens. We don’t have enough fuel left to dodge ARMs. Hmm … The Exeter isn’t radiating. Shoot at something else, instead.
14 h 50 min: The Oslo gets off 8 Sea Sparrows! Didn’t know it had that kind of fire rate! Oslo kills 2 AS-11. 3 Standard missiles from the invisible Charles F. Adams kill one more ARM, and the final one misses. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZC.png The Exeter is probably crippled, because it didn’t shoot. Visibility is 123 nm for my planes, and the ships are all within 50 nm. ECM does not affect the old Mk. 1 eyeball, so I really don’t know why I can’t see the Charles F. Adams.
14 h 51 min: Now I see you, 32 nm away! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZD.png That’s the Charles F. Adams, by inference, and eat ARMs, if you please.
14 h 52 min: I guessed right, he’s firing.
14 h 53 min: Charles F. Adams gets off 9 Standard missiles in 3 batches, killing 3 AS-11 Kilters. 2 of the remaining 5 Kilters hit, causing 27% damage, but no specials or speed reduction.
15 h 7 min: The next 4 Fencers have arrived and are shooting.
15 h 9 min: Charles F. Adams gets off 4 Standard missiles, shooting down 3 AS-11. 2 of the remaining 5 ARMs hit. Charles Adams is now 54% damaged, with ARM specials, and speed reduction to 18 kn.
15 h 10 min: And apparently that gives us a minimum victory! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/victory1.png But there is meat on the table, so we continue!
15 h 15 min: I want to shoot at the Type 22/2 next, to eliminate its sonar. It’s one of the generic ships. Choose the one in front; hit it with 8 ARMs. The remaining 4 ARMs are intended for the O.H. Perry. The Charles F. Adams and Exeter are no longer radiating. Maybe they are playing possum, but probably their radars have been wiped out.
15 h 17 min: No defensive fire. 1 of 8 ARMs hit, doing 30% damage, no specials, speed reduction to 21 kn. That unit falls out of the formation, as have all the other damaged ships. The remaining undamaged ships seem to be headed almost directly for my Kilos. We’ll find out soon enough how that plays out.
15 h 20 min: The O.H. Perry is still radiating, so shoot the 4 remaining ARMs at it.
15 h 22 min: The O.H. Perry gets off 7 Standard missiles, killing only one AS-11, but the remaining 3 simply miss! These missiles don’t seem to hit very often!
15 h 30 min: Some of the Fencers will now be rearming with AS-17 ARMs. This is a smaller missile than the AS-11, but it allows for a greater plane range, which is becoming important as the NATO ships continue to flee.
16 h 30 min: Hormone has been traveling west from fleet to scout for next Fencer strike. Now it pops up, etc, and immediately detects the O.H. Perry and the main body. Send 4 Fencers after the O.H. Perry. Send the long-range Fencers after the main body. Also send a couple of Fulcrums to see if we can pot some helicopters before they find my Kilos. This will put the fighters at the VERY limit of their range.
16 h 57 min: The first NATO ship bites the biscuit. 2 of 8 AS-11 were shot down by 4 Standard missiles, 4 missed, 2 hit. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZE.png
16 h 59 min: The first sonar contact. 7 nm away from a Kilo. At this point I realize that different ways of accessing the unit database give different sonar stats. The “display” and “full” button results are incompatible. <note 8>
17 h 9 min: We have located the 3 damaged ships – the Leander 3A, the Exeter, and the Charles F. Adams.
17 h 10 min: The second sonar contact.
17 h 13 min: What a juicy shot! 3nm with a 10 nm-range torpedo. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZF.png But it will probably cost me the Kilo, so I will let the Fencers do the job.
17 h 19 min: 4 x AS-17 Krypton against an as-yet undamaged ship.
17 h 21 min: The Oslo must have reloaded its battery! It gets off 7 Sea Sparrow against my Kryptons, killing 2. We get 1 hit for 17% damage + ARM specials.
17 h 22 min: We locate the last undamaged ship – the Oslo. It’s 15 nm from my Fencer, even though visibility is 123 nm!
17 h 27 min: ARRGH!  I had calculated that my Fulcrums could just barely make it to Alamo range of my Kilos and back home with a few minutes of fuel to spare, potting some of those dangerous helicopters at the very limit of their run. I would have done it, too, if the computer hadn’t forced an early return of the Fulcrums! Fighter pilots enjoy living dangerously, don’t they? I do not accept this. Thank God for autosave. I only lost a few minutes of game time.
17 h 31 min: Fulcrum SK launches 2 x Alamo and heads home. It will have 6 nm of fuel to spare. That’s plenty! (for a fighter jock) Fighter SL heads for home without shooting, because the timid computer turned it around too early. It will have 20 nm of fuel left, but he won’t get a medal. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/hero.png And THAT, dear reader, was the point of the exercise! Hero of the Soviet Union for Fulcrum SK pilot! Well, not really, but definitely a lesser medal. How many crew members are there on a Kilo, anyway?
Now both Kilos can launch batches of torpedos at those 2 ships that are 5-10 nm away, traveling at 20 + kn (i.e. poor sonar results). Kilo UD launches 3 torps each. Incidentally, the weapons it can actually launch do not match what it is rated to carry.
17 h 35 min: 8 x AS-17 head for Oslo. 3 torps smash into the Exeter, at a combined closing speed of almost 70 kn. At that speed, even a dud warhead will rip a big hole in a ship. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZG.png
17 h 36 min: 5 AS-17 smash into the Oslo, unopposed. Oslo is 56% damaged, as well as receiving special ARM damage, and its speed is reduced to 13 kn.
17 h 38 min: The 3 torps launched at the Type 22/2 have all missed and continue running (unguided torps?). 4 x AS-11 are en route to the Type 22/2.
17 h 39 min: The Type 22/2 fires 4 Sea Wolf; all miss. One AS-11 hits. The Type 22/2 is now 30% damaged. Kilo UD launches 6 more torps at Type 22/2 from 3 nm range.
17 h 41 min: The 3 torps that passed the Type 22/2 turned around! And hit and sank the Type 22/2. And 6 more torps are coming! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZH.png
17 h 47 min: 5 of 8 AS-11 hit Leander 3A. Its 2 Sea Wolfs missed. Leander 3A is now damaged to 91% + ARM specials, speed 7 kn.
18 h 18 min: The 2 fighters mentioned at 17:27 have successfully landed. What, me worry?
18 h 25 min: All my ships are now headed SW along the coast to Bodo. 4 Fencers will rearm with AS-11; the rest will go back to Kingbolts.
18 h 47 min: Launch 4 Fencer (SEAD) from Bodo. Launch Hormone from fleet to scout the west.
19 h 11 min: Hormone pops up and locates a ship. They can’t run, and they can’t hide.
19 h 40 min: The first 4 Fencers (SEAD) have searched and found only 3 damaged ships; none with operating radar. RTB.
20 h 5 min: 2 of 4 Kingbolts smash into Oslo and send it down. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZI.png Which gives us a level 2 victory. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/victory2.png
20 h 16 min: Again we wonder why we can’t simply SEE a ship until 12 nm away when visibility is 184 nm. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZJ.png
20 h 17 min: 1 of 4 Kingbolts hits Charles F. Adams, which sinks. Ditto for the Leander 3A. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZK.png The last available pair of Fencers has no useful targets and heads home.
Bodo (and the 6 NATO planes hiding there) is the final target. Unfortunately, none of my fleet’s missiles can be used against a land target, and certainly the Fencers don’t have enough punch to do much damage in 3.5 hours. The distance between Banak and Bodo is 284 nm. Therefore only airstrike options that allow for a range of more than 570 nm are even to be considered. Unfortunately any airstrike that does not include some measure of stand-off capacity runs into the problem that the 6 NATO planes can simply pop out of the base and, whether they be Falcons or Hornets, immediately wipe out 18 of the attacking airplanes, so once again, I am not going to use the Flogger Fs, and we are back to the slow grind with Fencers and Kingbolts.
20 h 54 min: Looks like they do have some teeth. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZL.png
20 h 58 min: 3 Kingbolts hit, doing 4% damage, + 1 plane.
21 h 16 min: Start operating the attack airplanes in groups of 4. Just take the straight-line shortest course Banak-Bodo.
21 h 48 min: Hawks still active at Bodo. But there definitely is no radar there. Only 1 Kingbolt hits, doing only 1% damage.
22 h 23 min: Hawks still active at Bodo. Only 2 Kingbolts hit, doing only 1% damage.
22 h 26 min: No Hawks left. 7 Kingbolt hits; 8% damage, 1 plane. Total damage now 14%.
22 h 55 min: 5 Kingbolts hit for 6% damage.
23 h 34 min: 6 Flogger Fs close on Bodo with rockets, wiping out an RBS-thingie on the way. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/giukZM.png The remaining 22 rocket pods do 14% damage, plus one plane. The NATO planes should have launched; even 2 would have massacred my Floggers, which have to close to 1 nm before they can shoot.
23 h 47 min: 5 of 8 Kingbolts hit Bodo for 6% damage.
23 h 56 min: 6 Flogger Fs hit Bodo with rockets, doing 16% damage and wiping out the last 3 NATO planes. Again, they should have popped out of the base and massacred my Floggers.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/end.png
Notes
1) Just for the sake of argument, consider the following situation. 20 NATO planes (4 Sea Harriers, 4 Harriers, 8 Falcons, and 4 Hornets, with 8 AMRAAMs, 16 Sparrows, and 80 Sidewinders) are defending against 90 Soviet planes (36 Fulcrums, 36 Fencers, and 18 Flogger Fs, with 72 Alamos, 144 Archers, and 72 Aphids). Assume that all the planes are together and approaching each other. Assume that detection is not an issue. Assume that NATO shoots first with equivalent weapons. Assume that missile travel time is zero. Assume that the shooter can freely choose targets. These are all bad assumptions, but you need to start the discussion somewhere.
Option A: First, the AMRAAMs and Sparrows are shot at the Fulcrums. 8 are shot down. Second, the 48 remaining Alamos are shot at the Falcons and Harriers, shooting them all down, and then at the Sea Harriers, shooting down 2. Third, the 12 remaining Sidewinders are shot at the Fulcrums, shooting down 6. Fourth, the 88 remaining Archers are used to shoot down 22 more NATO planes, which is more than what they started with.
Option B: First, the AMRAAMs and Sparrows are shot at the Fencers. 12 are shot down. Second, the Alamos are shot at the Falcons and Harriers, shooting them all down, then at the remaining NATO planes, shooting down 6. Third, the 4 remaining Sidewinders are shot at the Fencers, shooting down 2. Fourth, the Archers are used to shoot down 36 more NATO planes; you get the picture.
With option A, the Soviets have enough attack aircraft left to kill each NATO base in about one strike. With option B, probably 2 strikes will be needed. But in either case, NATO has no PLANES left, so there is no need to even attack the NATO bases.
2) It occurs to me that the jamming may blind the airplanes, so that most of them were shot down before they knew what hit them. I later restarted this scenario as NATO and flew all the Harriers in the general direction of the Soviet fleet. Some of them had radars on, some of them didn’t. They all got shot down before they detected anything at all.
3) There are advantages to having all airplanes on the same mission in one group. However, Banak has only one runway. If the first planes off the ground have to wait for all the later ones to join, they are wasting possibly critical fuel. The same idea applies to the landing. Therefore, in the early part of this scenario, I operated almost all my planes in pairs.
4) This dastardly act was committed by a cloaked Sea Harrier. It has a VS/S radar size, and a small physical size. The Hormone B SS radar has 195/130/65 nm range brackets. Assuming that the Sea Harrier cruises in low at 450 kn from 65 nm, it will need to close by 25 nm to reach AMRAAM launch range. The Harrier travels 15 nm in 2 min, or 3.75 nm in 30 s. This gives the Hormone about 6 radar checks (and maybe 7) at 55%. (.5)^6 = (1/64) = (1 + 1/2 + 1/16) % = 1.56%. Not very likely to miss all these! And the missile still needs to close! As for horizon effects, the Hormone was at medium altitude. Its SS radar circle had a radius of 110 nm, so that’s not an issue. Now maybe the Harrier came in at medium altitude. Although the Hormone was well within the AS radar range of Banak (92 nm away), which has a range of 200 nm, this may not be close enough. But finally, what about visual detection? The Hormone was stated to have a visibility range of 55 nm at that point in time and space.
All the above data was obtainable because fortunately, I had an autosave file from literally a few seconds before the Hormone got killed. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/invisible.png
If visual detection doesn’t work, this poses a problem. Consider, for example, my fleet. I very much want to make sure that I am not surprised by missiles. I don’t want to turn on the ship radars because that will attract a lot of unwanted attention, such as long-range missiles. So I need to put up a Hormone for surface search. But I have nothing with a useful air search radar, so I have to rely on visual detection for UFOs. If that doesn’t work, then I have no options. Where is an AWACS (which has a powerful radar that works in the full vertical dimension) when you need one?
The only defence for my Hormones may be the AI’s unwillingness to go after them, depending on location.
One reason the weapon was invisible may be an artifact of the detection process. Detection occurs only at discrete intervals of 30 s, set w.r.t. the scenario, not any particular event. Consider, for example, a Sparrow launched from maximum range of 30 nm, traveling at 2400 kn (approximate values). That speed is 20 nm per 30 s. So there would be either one or 2 checks, although in real life those checks are happening in some sense continuously. In the case of a short- range missile such as a Sidewinder, there may never be a check for the duration of the missile’s flight, even if it were launched at maximum range, and in principle, it would be possible to flee if you knew it was coming. A skilled and sleazy player could use the discreteness of the detection process to advantage.
5) 9 Kingbolts did 6% damage to Narvik. 14 Kingbolts did 13% damage. 12 Kingbolts did 7% damage. There is an inconsistency here.
6) The O.H. Perry and Type 22/2 frigates have good sonars (2 convergence zones). The other NATO ships have poor sonars (only one CZ), which is up to Soviet standards. The American ships carry a total of 8 Harpoons, which explains what we saw at 39.5 min. The 2 British frigates carry a total of eight 23 nm range Exocets. With the exception of the area air defence systems, all the other NATO weapons are short range (about 10 nm or less).
My fleet has 12 Sandboxes, 16 Sunburns, 24 Sirens, and 2 Shaddocks. For gun actions, we have the Sverdlov. Somehow, I think we have the advantage in a surface action.
7) Testing the sneak, starting from 12 h 14 min. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak1.png Crank up the speed to find the instant the Hornets shoot. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak2.png Do nothing, and the Hormone gets killed. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak3.png Continue to do nothing, and the Fulcrums get killed. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak4.png Continue to do nothing, and the Hornets run away. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak5.png
Go back to start and turn on sensors. Use only the air search radars on the ships. The Slava has a 270 nm range air search radar. Locate when the Hornets are detected. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/USNI/sneak6.png
I am not going to do a detailed analysis about this in this place at this time. The only thing I will add is the following: Based on the above screenshots, you can see that, had I had the air search radars of the fleet on at about that time, I would have detected the Hornets coming in and would have shot them down in good time to save my Hormone (no other unit was ever at risk).
But would this have been a good plan? Should I have had the air search radars of the fleet on? Comments?
8) I realized at some point that there appear to be contradictions in the database. If you select one of your units in the unit window, the “display” and “full” options in the report window give VERY different information. This appears to apply to all ships and subs. Perhaps this is intentional, but I can’t figure it out. The same is true of the 2 different options in the Reports menu.
Aftermath
1) I don’t understand ECM. It appears to have very significant effects, and I can guess at some of them, but I would need to see some documentation. For example, it occurs to me that if you have the more powerful electronics, yours should be activated, whereas if the enemy has better electronics, yours should be off.
2) Offensive Grumbles.
It seems to be the case that Soviet fighters are always inferior to NATO fighters. For example, the Soviet short-range air-air missile has a range of 4 nm, while the NATO one has a 10 nm range. The Soviet medium-range air-air missile has a range of about 30 nm, while the NATO one is at least somewhat longer. Other things being equal, this means that the NATO fighter will always win. Of course, NATO is always outnumbered. But is there a way in which the Soviets can attack the NATO fighters with a weapon that outranges them? Yes there is - it's called the Grumble.
But the Grumble launcher is stationary, you say. How can you attack with a stationary weapon?
We saw the mechanism in the opening minutes of this scenario, where the Slava destroyed something like 18 NATO airplanes, for a cost of about 40 Grumbles. Physics tells us that all motion is relative. Were the planes moving toward my fleet, or was my fleet moving towards the planes? Just kidding. The Germans used the "PaK screen" tactic extensively in North Africa, in which British tanks were induced to drive towards stationary antitank guns, thus taking heavy casualties.
Can the Soviets get NATO to drive their fighters into Grumble range, after which the Soviet fighters can eat the NATO bombers? You could set your fighters up as bait, and you can probably suck the AI in. It's a different question as to whether a human would be sucked in.
Of course, you may say that your Grumbles have much more important things to do than shoot down NATO fighters, and that really, NATO should be happy to sacrifice fighters at the rate of 2 Grumbles per fighter.
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In case anybody notices that the main post was edited much later than the rest of the thread, on Dec. 21, 2009, when I had occasion to go back and reread this, I found and fixed 3 cosmetic errors.
< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 12/22/2009 6:27:06 AM >
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