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RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe air war (2+ years of time)...

 
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RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 9:26:42 AM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
I had read that the rear gunner was usually from the gulag or other prison systems, and they didn't bother armouring his position.


When the initial IL-2s were modified to two-seaters in the field the gunner sat outside the armoured section at the aircraft, usually on a simple canvas sling with little if any protection. The first factory modified IL-2s had a 6mm armour plate shielding the gunner from the rear, but he was otherwise unprotected.

An IL-2bis was developed with a fully-armoured gunner’s compartment which flew field trials and not surprisingly was popular with gunners, but it required significant structural changes and reduced internal bomb load by 200kg, so was not put into production. Only in the successor to the IL-2, the IL-10, was the gunner’s protection built into the aircraft from the start. It consisted of two 8mm armour plates with a space between.

Life expectancy for IL-2 gunners was not high (I have seen some figures but can’t find them now) so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Soviet authorities chose them from the ranks of the ‘expendable’.



_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 61
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 10:21:24 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
I had read that the rear gunner was usually from the gulag or other prison systems, and they didn't bother armouring his position.


When the initial IL-2s were modified to two-seaters in the field the gunner sat outside the armoured section at the aircraft, usually on a simple canvas sling with little if any protection. The first factory modified IL-2s had a 6mm armour plate shielding the gunner from the rear, but he was otherwise unprotected.

An IL-2bis was developed with a fully-armoured gunner’s compartment which flew field trials and not surprisingly was popular with gunners, but it required significant structural changes and reduced internal bomb load by 200kg, so was not put into production. Only in the successor to the IL-2, the IL-10, was the gunner’s protection built into the aircraft from the start. It consisted of two 8mm armour plates with a space between.

Life expectancy for IL-2 gunners was not high (I have seen some figures but can’t find them now) so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Soviet authorities chose them from the ranks of the ‘expendable’.


There is one nice book about Il-2 by Vasili Emelianenko (Russian WWII pilot) called "On Cruel War Sky" (rough translation of original Russian Title). When you mentally remove all communist propaganda (when you read the book you can do it automatically ) it is quite nice one... he tells of many many many casualties...


In Amazon this book is called: "Red Star Against the Swastika: The Story of a Soviet Pilot over the Eastern Front":

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Star-Against-Swastika-Eastern/dp/1853676497/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1232792367&sr=1-2


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Howard Mitchell)
Post #: 62
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 11:49:55 AM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		...added to the wish list, thanks Apollo11

_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 63
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 12:05:08 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell

...added to the wish list, thanks Apollo11


Good!

BTW, Vasili fought in Il-2 from start (in 1941) till the end (1945)... I remember reading that once when he crashed (and he crashed pleny ) all he took from downed airplane was aircraft clock... really don't know why clock was so fascinating / specially valuable...


Leo "Apollo11"



_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Howard Mitchell)
Post #: 64
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 1:42:04 PM   
AirGriff


Posts: 701
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		With regard to the original topic of Japanese air power, I think one of the key deficiencies in Japanese aircraft wasn't the quality of planes as the lack of radio's, which severely limited their tactics.  Typically, only one fighter or bomber had a radio and they used hand signals for commands.  Once the dust started flying it got pretty freaky deaky. 


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 65
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 4:53:00 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

really don't know why clock was so fascinating / specially valuable


You didn't lived in poverty.

(in reply to AirGriff)
Post #: 66
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 5:18:22 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

really don't know why clock was so fascinating / specially valuable


You didn't lived in poverty.


True... but that's BIG aircraft clock (not a wristwatch)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 67
RE: Failure of the Japanese to learn from WWII Europe a... - 1/24/2009 5:52:36 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Maybe the Clocks were all the one need to fly that beast!  And he was actually denied the plane to the enemy.

On the other hand, Clocks could be the most valuable of the plane ...


_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 68
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