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German exploits in the Pacific

 
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German exploits in the Pacific - 5/5/2002 7:46:09 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Our German friends probably don’t know much about their exploits in the Pacific.

WW1
= = = =

The country now named Papua New Guinea was once 2 separate places named Papua and New Guinea.

In 1914 Papua was a German colony. The first action by Australians in WW1 was in Papua. The tiny garrison was easily overwhelmed. But in this place more Australians died of tropical illness than died in action.

Meanwhile in the Indian Ocean, the cruiser Sydney sunk the German raider the Emden off the coast of Western Australia.


WW2
= = =

At least 2 U Boats sailed all the way to Sydney. One was sunk off the coast of New Zealand. There is a book about it. IIRC some of the former crew went to NZ and some divers dived on the sub.

In the Indian Ocean, the best Australian ship in the navy, the cruiser Sydney, had some great success against the Italian navy in the Mediterranean, ( it was a new ship with the same name). She was sunk by the German raider the Kormoran off the coast of Western Australia in November 1941.

Quite a few German prisoners of war were held in camps across Australia. Mostly captured in North Africa.

So the Germans sure got around!
Post #: 1
HMAS Sydney - 5/5/2002 8:22:31 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		When sunk by the Kormoran, the Sydney sunk her. No survivors.

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Post #: 2
Re: HMAS Sydney - 5/5/2002 8:47:02 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]When sunk by the Kormoran, the Sydney sunk her. No survivors. [/B][/QUOTE]

The loss of the HMAS Sydney is still the cause of great debate within Australia.....even more so because all hands were lost.

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Post #: 3
- 5/5/2002 8:49:39 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		There were no survivors from the Sydney.

But there were survivors from the Kormoran.

-

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Post #: 4
Why? - 5/5/2002 10:46:02 AM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		On 6th of Feb 1942, a Carley Float was washed up on Christmas Island with a lonely corpse dressed in a boiler suit.

No post moretum was ever conducted, and the poor chap buried on christmas island.

Surely dental records could identify if this bloke was one of Sydneys crew?

Why has this never been done?????

Why has the Australian government not done more to try and find the sydneys resting place?

So many unanswered questions....

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Post #: 5
Stubby - 5/5/2002 11:11:50 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		That's a very interesting question. Considering the mystery behind it, you'd think Robert Ballard or some organization would take a crack at it.

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Post #: 6
- 5/5/2002 6:28:37 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		Huhu,
well, maybe knew your german friends more about this as you think....

maybe you remember the "Geschwader Spee", crusing for some time in the pacific in WW1 or such nice places as the Bismarck Archipel...

In ww2 the pacific saw some german subs there, they had even a home port for the IX D2-types in 1943. Also in the indian ocean, they operated very succsessfull, don´t know if that counts...

also some raiders operated there, like the kormoran, but also, if i remember correctly the Atlantis, the Thor and some others....

In ww1 also Graf Luckner operated very succsessfully in the pacific, with a 3 mast-bark....

For the Kormoran-Sydney battle, well, it was a very great victory for the kormoran and very stupid from the brits, no "honor" for the brits and aussis, maybe this is the point, they never honored the sailors (for me, very typical for politicans) - even if they fight very brave....

The sydney controlled the kormoran and was (i read that in a book from a kormoran survivor) to overestimated - It came near to some kilometers (2 or 3), and was hit deadly from the 15cm guns of the kormoran (or were it 21cm guns??). The sydney had opened fire first, but after some shots, it came to near to look at the prey (probably they thought, the kormoran was no match for them). Also the Kormoran got some seriously damages, so the captain gave up the ship.... 300 plus x survivors from the kormoran, but none from the sydney, this ship drifted away and was never seen - i think it sunk from internal explosions...

But anyway, it is a shame, that the politicans never honored the loss of live of these sailors...

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

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Post #: 7
Subs - 5/5/2002 7:50:58 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1052
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline 		In WWII, Germany has a U-Boat base with the Japanese in Penang.

Some german subs delievered technical equipment such as Engines for aircraft, weapons or Steel into Singapore..

Some german U-Boats were delivered to the japanese, too..

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 8
German tourists - 5/5/2002 8:27:28 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		If I remember correctly, the USS Tarpon sank the German raider Mickel. Quite a few raiders preying on allied ships in this area.

As Odin said, the Sydney being lost to the Kormoran was a shameful and unfortunate lax in command judgement, as she was battle hardened. What is more unfortunate is that the Kormoran survivors were found and the Sydney's remained missing. Obviously, there must have been a massive magazine explosion as Odin suggested, or some survivors would have been found by an air search of the area. Surely, Sydney got off a contact report?

I'm going to check this out.

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Post #: 9
- 5/5/2002 9:23:49 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi
[B]Huhu,

The sydney controlled the kormoran and was (i read that in a book from a kormoran survivor) to overestimated - It came near to some kilometers (2 or 3), and was hit deadly from the 15cm guns of the kormoran (or were it 21cm guns??). The sydney had opened fire first, but after some shots, it came to near to look at the prey (probably they thought, the kormoran was no match for them). [/B][/QUOTE]

According to my sources (Kormoran's CO Detmers as quoted in Brennecke, Die Deutschen Hilfskreuzer im 2. WK], Sydney closed to within 900 meters running parallel to Kormoran, which was diguised as a Dutch MCS. Kormoran then dropped its mask, hoisted the KM ensign and commenced firing at 5.30 p.m. with four 15cm guns. The first salvo hit bridge and 'artillery command post' (What is the correct term in english?) of Sydney. Sydney returned fire with one full salvo instantly, but overshot the target. Kormoran launched two torpedos which hit forward and put A and B turret out of commission. X turret managed three salvos which overshot and then went silent. Only Y turret's fire was fast and accurate and hit Kormoran in the machinery spaces, which catched fire and later that evening forced the crew to abandon ship.
By 6.00 p.m. Sydney was slowly moving in a SSE direction, Y turret was now silent, too and she was burning fiercely. Defiantly, Sydney's crew managed to launch four torpedos against Kormoran, which were spotted and avoided. While changing course, Kormoran's damaged machinery finally gave out and with it the firefighting equipment. This finished Kormoran, she was abandoned by midnight. The fires from Sydney were observed in the distance till around 9 p.m., then got out of sight.

It might be interesting for stubby331 that CO Detmers has observed that during the fight Sydney's float plane plunged from the catapult into the sea. Did Sydney possessed more than one? Does the type found on Xmas Is. match the one carried by Sydney? The battle took place 200 nm west of Shark's Bay/Western Australia. Xmas Is. is a thousand miles NNW of this place (just roughly estimated). So why should someone attempt to reach Xmas Is. when Austalia was much nearer? What are the wind and drift conditions at that time of the year in this area? Is it possible that the plane was drifted to Xmas Is. in the available time (Nov 19th, 41 to Feb 6th, 42)? Were there other engagements around Xmas Is. at this time from which might explain the float plane? IIRC there was a Japanese raid against Xmas Is. in early 42.

LST

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Post #: 10
- 5/5/2002 10:26:34 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by LargeSlowTarget
[B]

Did Sydney possessed more than one? Does the type found on Xmas Is. match the one carried by Sydney?
LST [/B][/QUOTE]

A Carley float is a type of life raft, not a plane.

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Post #: 11
- 5/5/2002 11:24:36 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by HMSWarspite
[B]

A Carley float is a type of life raft, not a plane. [/B][/QUOTE]´

Now that explains the boiler dress. Darn, once again I'm a victim of my own false assumptions. Didn't occurred to me that 'float' is not a short form of float plane but can be a kind of raft, too. My English is just so f***ing bad. Thank god there are native speakers and real Navy experts like Warspite out there... Thanks, and keep correcting this dumb Kraut.

Had a look at some charts and it seems that in the southern summer the winds on the west coast of Australia are predominatly going north, and so are the currents. Possibly the raft has been drifting all the way to Xmas Is.. But we better ask an expert ...

Mea culpa.

LST

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Post #: 12
Re: German tourists - 5/7/2002 5:07:22 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1052
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]If I remember correctly, the USS Tarpon sank the German raider Mickel. Quite a few raiders preying on allied ships in this area.

As Odin???? said, the Sydney being lost to the Kormoran was a shameful and unfortunate lax in command judgement, as she was battle hardened. What is more unfortunate is that the Kormoran survivors were found and the Sydney's remained missing. Obviously, there must have been a massive magazine explosion as Odin???? suggested, or some survivors would have been found by an air search of the area. Surely, Sydney got off a contact report?

I'm shure i had no part in this:D :D :D

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 13
Gun plot...? - 5/7/2002 10:19:34 PM   
Toro


Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by LargeSlowTarget
[B]
The first salvo hit bridge and 'artillery command post' (What is the correct term in english?) of Sydney.
LST [/B][/QUOTE]

Gun plot? Perhaps CIC (Combat Information Center)?

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 14
- 5/7/2002 10:40:44 PM   
IanLister

 

Posts: 158
Joined: 4/7/2002
From: Pennine Hills, Northern England, UK
Status: offline 		Director control tower (main battery)???

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Post #: 15
Bitter victory - 5/10/2002 1:26:12 PM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		Hi guys,
Been out of circulation up at Learmonth for the week or so. Just now been catching up on the posts.

If your interested in the Sydney-Kormoran action I suggest you get hold of the book entitled "Bitter Victory" which was published in Australia 2 years ago, at $49.95 Australian dollars a copy its not cheap....

But, well worth the read. I am at work at the moment so I cannot treat you with any titbits from the book but maybe tonight...

Just briefly though...

No radio contact from Sydney was ever received regarding the Kormoran. A weeklong air and sea search was commenced for Sydney only when the German survivors started to be picked up by passing shipping.

The author of this book has compiled all interviews conducted with the German POWs after the action. Apparently immediately after the battle Sydney’s superstructure was well alight which would explain why there were no boats sighted (ie they were burnt, destroyed).
A total of 2 carley floats were recovered (1 carrying the xmas island corpse), both badly damaged by gunfire. 2 RAN life preservers were also picked up. No other bodies were recovered.

I do intend to give you all a salvo by salvo account from the book. But just to give you an idea of how badly damaged Sydney was…
During the action Kormoran fired two torpedoes, one of which hit the Sydney under “A” turret. From this, “A” turret was blown completely off the ship, no other firing was recorded from “B” turret after this event.

More later....

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 16
- 5/10/2002 3:18:24 PM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
Status: offline 		You should also read about the German campaign in Tanzania. At the time, it was a German colony, known as German East Africa. The garrison there has about 2000 German troops led by a colonel, and about 10,000 native "volunteers". The interesting thing about this campaign was that it lasted 4 YEARS. That's right, the last German force to surrender in WWI was in German East Africa, and it happened some two weeks after the official armistice. Over 100,000 Allied troops had been involved and deployed to the country to track down the German colonial forces, tying down a huge contingent of Allied troops for what was essentially a write off force. The colonel's name was Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck.

Side note : one reasone Vorbeck's men were so effective was that a German cruiser with 6 or 8 inch guns (I forget which) was beached in German East Africa after an action in the Indian Ocean. It may have in fact been the Emden, but I don't remember. Anyway, Vorbeck salvaged some of these guns, had them mounted on scratch made mounts that could be moved overland and also helped with aiming. He lugged these guns around for 4 years, including the ammunition. Hard to believe, but true. To those who have an interest in these things, Vorbeck's campaign is one of the greatest unheralded efforts in military history.

I'm sure someone will hop on Google and correct me in some details. At least I hope so :D

Edit Note : I found a link which is more authoritative than what I remember from what I read 20 years ago ;)'

http://www.pressenter.com/~germanam/colonel.htm

Edit note : here is another link to Vorbeck's memoirs

http://www.skalman.nu/history/books-review-eastafrica.htm

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 17
- 5/10/2002 7:08:01 PM   
Preuss

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 4/8/2002
From: Australia
Status: offline 		The vessel of which you speak was the light cruiser Konigsberg...which mounted 10.5cm guns...or 4 inch.

Best wishes


Gary

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Post #: 18
- 5/10/2002 7:27:31 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Man the things you learn reading these forums....amazing:eek:

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Post #: 19
Correction - 5/10/2002 10:27:03 PM   
stubby331


Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline 		sorry guys.

My apologies. I was utterly wrong in trusting my memory at work. When the torpedo hit the Sydney under the forward turrets. “A” turret did not fly off the ship.

Upon reviewing “Bitter victory” tonight while relaxing at home, it was the 10th salvo from Kormoran which blew the roof of the already dead “B” turret overboard. Again my apologies.

According to German eyewitnesses, when the torpedo under the forward turrets struck “the explosion caused Sydney’s bows to bite deep into the water. A huge cloud of black smoke then enveloped the ship. When this cleared, Sydney was seen to be down by the bows.”

Its 2330hrs hear now and I’m too buggered to sit and type.

In summary I will tell you that Sydney was hit by 10 salvos in all, the Torpedo hit at about the eighth or ninth salvo.

Major damage;

2nd salvo; hit bridge and carried away most of her superstructure.

3rd & 4th salvos; hit the forward turrets, both were put out of action.

5th salvo: stray shell hit the Walrus. (This had been preparing to take off, when hit showering the midships with burning fuel).

6th, 7th, 8th, 9th salvos, working the midships region, on the waterline or upper decks.

10th salvo; as mentioned, blew the roof off the already dead “B” turret.

Sydney’s fire;

1st salvo; fired either simultaneously or shortly after Kormoran’s. Evidence suggests that 4 of the eight shells hit. 1 hitting the funnel, while 3 passed through the unarmoured bridge structure without exploding.

2nd salvo; (fired about the time of Kormorans 5th) comprised X & Y turrets firing in group or local control. 1 shell tearing the engine room fuel tank and exiting without exploding, 2nd shell passed through the ship without exploding, piercing the fire main on both sides of the engine room. 3rd shell hit the starboard side of engine room, exploding, destroying the transformers. The 4th shell exploded abaft the engine room.

3rd and subsequent salvos; X & Y turrets in local control directed at both the engine room and the raiders guns. 1 shell piercing the gun shield of no3 gun before passing into the sea.
German survivors did comment on the return fire saying that most of the Sydney’s hits seemed to come from X turret.

In “Bitter Victory” (ISBN 1 876268 49 2). The author, Wesley Olson has written a very thorough book indeed, rather than take my word for it, get a copy and read for yourself.

Again, my apologies for the mistake. I should not have trusted my memory.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 20
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