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Impressions after Soviet Win

 
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Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/26/2009 3:47:34 PM   
Capitaine

 

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After a few false starts where I kept getting creamed by the German AI for not entrenching my advancing units, I finally managed to play a coherent game as the Soviets. Below is the victory screen which shows my "Overwhelming" victory.

I can only say that this win didn't feel like a victory, much less an overwhelming one. My entire army was in the process of being destroyed and I was only saved by the bell of the game ending. This felt like a game of, say, France 1940 where the French win if they delay the Germans by an extra day or something. Nothing can stop a determined German onslaught so as the Soviet you just have to accept that any victory, even "overwhelming", will be decidedly Pyrrhic. I don't mind at all playing lopsided historical scenarios; after all, they happen and I want to see them modelled. I was just floored by having accomplished such a victory when I felt I was on the verge of annihilation.

I wanted to get a complete game under my belt before commenting. I like the SSG system a lot because I like hex and turn based games. My issue with at least this iteration of the engine was with the extreme mobility and actions allowed to the German units. Their constant shifting around to find favorable odds attacks kept breaking my immersion to remind me that this system and its AI are based on the prescient ability of being able to scramble around taking advantage of every high odds attack presented. Were this real life, none of this would be possible due to the immense traffic jams that would result from so much "passing of the lines". There is no AP cost for combat, nor for disengaging with the enemy. It's my opinion that there is simply too much movement available after combat. But I guess such is the cost of an effective AI?

I recently made a post about the "time and space" issue in turn based games in connection with 2by3's upcoming Eastern Front game.

quote:

I was rereading this thread and I agree with the design that Joel described in the game being a combined movement/combat turn-based system in order to increase the enjoyment of the game. Yet DiT's comments are not lost on me either. You need to limit a system to prevent multiple attacks on defenders that defy time and space due to the "activity point" system in play. And I agree with DiT that TOAW's system is too flawed to be implemented in other games due to distortions among widely separated units.

The key, to me, isn't in adjusting the AP levels of the phasing player, but in assigning an "activity point" limit to defending units in the opposing player's turn as well. When a defending unit is attacked, the movement used by the phasing player's attacking units, plus a variable amount of APs due to combat, is expended by both the attacking and defending units. Combat results would be partially a function of the length of time spent engaged with the enemy. Once a defending unit's AP level is expended in the other player's turn, that unit may not be attacked again in that turn. And if there are only a few AP's remaining, any additional attack would have a less extensive result than an initial attack that could use as much time as needed for combat resolution.

So, with this approach, a defending unit that, say, retreats after combat would be using APs to do so which would limit the ability of other phasing units to attack it. This approach also doesn't need any "proximity" or "universal" deduction of APs from other units of the phasing player. It automatically differentiates between attacks that are made by units already in attack position at the beginning of the turn and attacks by units made after making large AP expenditures just to move into contact with the enemy.

This approach would likely require standard AP levels and increments for all units, but different rates of expenditure depending on movement class and terrain (e.g. an AFV would spend less APs to cross a hex than an infantry unit, even though they'd have the same number of APs).


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1732154&mpage=5

Of course, the proof of the pudding is in whether the game is enjoyable and presents a challenge, while maintaining a colorable historical foundation. I guess what I'm saying is that while I enjoy the setting, the style, the graphics and the interface of this game, I was left rolling my eyes at the way combat repeatedly took place. It wasn't really exploitation or breakthrough combat, it was cherry picking made possible by extremely large movement rates and combat (including artillery barrages) that took no time at all to effect. All combat is literally instantaneous. I'm a long time veteran of board and computer wargaming and I just felt that the physics of this system were unreal. I didn't see how combat units could just constantly pull in and out of engagements and reshuffle themselves to attack again and again on a completely different vector. Then retire and set themselves up in defensive position as if the attacks never took place. It was too much like the old boardgaming tactic of finding the exactly correct mathematical combination of units to achieve the desired odds. Only taken to an extreme.

I feel like the AI kicked my butt, despite my victory. It was like solving a puzzle though; not like military strategy. And the AI, especially with the huge movement factors and combat ability of the Germans in Kharkov, are very good at solving puzzles. I too used the combat calculator a bit -- mainly to find my best hope of success -- but with the Soviets it was essentially "one and done", with much less mobility and reshuffling. I think that broadly speaking the operational decisions and strategy are valid here, but the tactical resolution of the game presents some serious questions to me. I'd like to see the tactical resolution more supported by conservative military abilities than what I've described in this post.





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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/26/2009 3:54:03 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Here is the save of the finished game for those who want to see the final state of my victorious Red Army.

(I don't know if this works, but I changed the save file to a .txt file to upload. Hopefully you can just change the suffix back to .sav if you want to see this file.)


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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/26/2009 8:09:17 PM   
iberian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
There is no AP cost for combat, nor for disengaging with the enemy. It's my opinion that there is simply too much movement available after combat. But I guess such is the cost of an effective AI?


Technically speaking, this is not totally true. Front line units impose an OP penalty to their surrounding hexes, so entering a disputed hex or disengaging from an enemy unit costs OP's.

As far as movement, and even taking into account that a turn is 24 hours -a long timespan where there is plenty to abstract-, I believe the main problem is the HUGE OP bonus HQ give to their subordinate units.

In general terms, distances across enemy territory look realistic, since most of the HQ OP bonus cancells out with the extra OP penalty. Problem is distances across friendly territory. I think the system breaks there.

I'm not sure what could be done in terms of scenario design to make things better, but right now I feel that distances where more realistic with the previous logistic system (BiN, BiI and BF).

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 1:13:37 AM   
Capitaine

 

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The AP costs for hexes adjacent to enemy units are attributable to the need to deploy from travel mode and the generally more cautious/slow movement around the enemy.  It's not AP for combat.  Artillery barrages fire and they take 0 time.  As does the combat.  0, not a little, but none.  And combat can occur at the very end of a move for a unit that expended 30APs just to reach an adjacent hex... and then new units can come in afterwards and attack the same defender.  You've played TOAW and understand what that turn usage system is all about haven't you?

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 3:08:41 AM   
jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

 

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In my opinion the basic system is very solid. You get one attack or other action (eg entrenching, taking repalcements, using rail movement etc.) per turn, and you can also move up to your movement allowance each turn. This is very clean and straightforward, and I don't think it should be altered. The exception to this is a combat where your advantage is so overwhelming that you get an overrun and do not use up your "action" for the turn. Again, this seems to me to be reasonable and realistic.

It does however seem to me that in Kharkov it is possible to get overruns at relatively low odds (e.g. 4 to 1 in some instances), so it is possible for a unit to participate in multiple overruns per turn and still have it's "action" available, allowing it to subsequently entrench, take replacements etc. At various times during the game both sides have the opportunity to take advantage of this. This could well be realistic for this battle on this scale (I do not know enough about the battle of Kharkov and Russian Front combat in general to say if it is), but if it is not it can easily be corrected using the current system by simply altering the odds neded for an overrun. I do not think there is any need to alter the basics of the simple and effective system that we have now.


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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 3:56:02 AM   
Capitaine

 

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Just my observations.  Take 'em for what they're worth.  The issues I've highlighted seem much stronger in this game than what I've noticed before; perhaps because I've usually played the Germans myself against the Soviet bludgeon in prior games, or play the attacking Allies against more "tired" Germans.  Or maybe it was a conscious decision to add much more mobility to the Germans.  Admittedly my air interdiction didn't appear to slow any unit down at all.  They moved around through that like it wasn't there.

I also haven't played the German side yet to learn what was happening first hand.  I'm not that excited to play the German side because I don't really want to play the way the AI did.

I just had to laugh at the incredible number of overruns units get (which is multiple attacks, as you say often at relatively low odds and with a lot of forces).  With more forces involved, I would think the time to coordinate all of them would take longer and use up more time, leaving less time for more attacks following the massive assault.  I appreciate what the system has done over all these years, I've had them all.  But I was just left shaking my head after watching attack after attack after attack by the same units.

I would note that I haven't tried to match up the game with any historical timetable and I imagine SSG have indeed done so; hence my statement that strategy and operational decisions are likely valid.  My take is based only on my gaming experiences and what I think could or couldn't happen in real life.  I've read too much about combat "friction" and the like to believe units of this level behaved this way.  I'm much more conscious of the time and space representations of turn-based games than I used to be in the past.  You can't "add" to this engine what I've described as an alternative; it wouldn't be the same game.  It is what it is.  I'm mainly just a little disappointed with my experience and am trying articulate why.
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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 4:20:39 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffreys
The exception to this is a combat where your advantage is so overwhelming that you get an overrun and do not use up your "action" for the turn.



But you still use up an attack bullet. If a unit makes a whole series of foverruns in one turn that unit can theoretically run out of attack bullets - and the it takes some turns to build up the attack supplies again.

-


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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 5:33:36 AM   
jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

 

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Capitaine:

I agree with you that even an overwhelming Soviet victory doesn't quite feel like a victory, because the goal of the Soviets is basically to avoid being defeated as badly as happened historically, rather than truly defeating the enemy. This doesn't bother me too much, but I will admit that playing as the Soviets I do like having all those overruns early on. I know that I have only a few turns to achieve my objectives before the German attacks begin, so I feel the need to rush ahead with "all due speed". I suppose that to some extent that is the "iron grip of hindsight" that the designers speak of in the manual (since I know the German attacks are coming soon and am acting on that knowledge to some degree), but there's no way to avoid doing that to some extent.

It can also be argued that the Soviets had carefully prepared and planed their offensive, so that their attacks would have particularly well coordinated and effective for the first few days. The same would have applied to the the German attacks in the south later in the game.



quote:

But you still use up an attack bullet. If a unit makes a whole series of foverruns in one turn that unit can theoretically run out of attack bullets - and the it takes some turns to build up the attack supplies again.


Joe 98:

Good Point. Another device for regulating the number of overruns would be by modifying the number of bullets used up by each attack, or the rate at which the headquarters replace the bullets. In general this system does seem to have a lot of flexibility for fine tuning each scenerio to make it both accurate and playable.



< Message edited by jeffreys -- 1/27/2009 6:09:46 AM >


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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 4:45:29 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Heh, yeah, expending attack bullets.  At least that's one thing that can place a limit on things.

My memory isn't clear on it, but didn't other Decisive battles games have turns divided up into a few per day, including some night turns?  Could it be that greater movement due to longer turn length which, combined with the resulting lack of enemy reaction, gives rise to more unfettered and multiple attacks?  I do think you could go too far in that direction when trying to make the system less of a "stalemate" situation I've noticed before in, say, the BiN game as I recall.

I do think a turn-based game needs to be more careful with turn length if there's no safeguard in place like in TOAW and like what I've described above.  It can look like Monty Python, where you have the defender just sitting there with the attackers moving all around with no reaction (recall Lancelot "charging" Swamp Castle, lol).
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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 8:47:56 PM   
e_barkmann


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don't forget that each close combat has a chance to create combat residue, which imparts an OP penalty of up to 10 OP in the surrounding hexes of the close combat. If the defending unit is eliminated, there's a chance it will leave a combat remnant in its hex, which will add an additional 5 OP to the hex. This all tends to mire the combat area significantly. Any defender worth his salt will also add in some air interdiction if available, to prevent exploitation and general free movement of the enemy.

Also, in the new engine the defender can Defense Fire unlimited times in each turn during close combat, so defenders can in fact react quite strongly to each attack. Try attacking a German stack with some decent df factors and observe the additional casualties (the attacking steps lost to df will have a explosion graphic on the icon in the CC display).

It's an interesting observation but I can't agree that the game is an overrun-fest against units, at least well placed units; although it certainly is against strongpoints (as it should be).

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/27/2009 9:44:23 PM   
Capitaine

 

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I started a hotseat game against myself to look at the opening moves and what the Germans have available along with their movement capabilities.  Wow.  It's just amazing how even with the artillery, they can start waaaay back behind the lines, move forward even adjacent to enemy units, fire on a target behind Soviet lines, then move back waaay behind their own lines again.  All without any risk of loss.  Now, the motorized units have double the movement of the artillery units; it's absolutely amazing.

I agree, Chris, that the overrun odds aren't that low for nonstrongpoint attacks.  But they're low enough that they can be made even against a four-unit stack with enough units and extra hexside bonuses.  But the ability to completely run back to safety after these mammoth overruns is what I think has me puzzled and skeptical.  It's just too neat and tidy for me.  I guess some will like that.

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/28/2009 7:02:02 AM   
Wallenstein

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

I started a hotseat game against myself to look at the opening moves and what the Germans have available along with their movement capabilities.  Wow.  It's just amazing how even with the artillery, they can start waaaay back behind the lines, move forward even adjacent to enemy units, fire on a target behind Soviet lines, then move back waaay behind their own lines again.  All without any risk of loss.  Now, the motorized units have double the movement of the artillery units; it's absolutely amazing.



"...and this is actually a part of the plan - we know our forces east of Kharkov will never get into the town, so we just lure the Germans into easy attacks up there. And while the panzer formations are occupied with torching our T34s and infantry there and foolishly think they are winning the battle, they won´t be able to react on our swift move in the south where we quickly take the key towns of Borki, Krasnograd, Lannaya and Pereshsepino(?). This should provide enough prestige points to stay ahead until the finish.

regards,
General Wallensteinov"

I agree the high German movement rates can be a kind of issue, but after initial rants I now think that they are within a realistic bandwidth. Fact is that a bold Soviet advance will be severely punished, but a cautious advance combined with some interdiction and combat residue should at least not allow attacking German units to move back into safety after an assault. As they can not entrench they should be easy prey in the following turn.




< Message edited by Wallenstein -- 1/28/2009 9:00:22 AM >

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/28/2009 2:28:00 PM   
Avatar47


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No gaming system is perfect. If we implemented traffic rules, redeployment rules, advanced refueling rules, etc etc,  for Kharkov then the game would probably get boring fast. The way it is now, it's smooth and without all the nitty-gritty that doesn't interest the vast majority of us anyways. The battle more or less plays out like its historical counter-part, and that's the most important.

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RE: Impressions after Soviet Win - 1/28/2009 3:50:48 PM   
Capitaine

 

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I have been a long-time customer of SSG and will likely continue buying their products.  Nevertheless, I really, really enjoy critical analysis of wargames and I like to opine on how a given game coincides with my own impression of events and the modelling of warfare.  I felt that TAO 1 was the best game of the series, actually.  In some ways I'm sorry they got away from that exact style of presentation and gameplay.  It was more about supply and isolation there.  Probably most people feel differently from me.

And yes, I probably would not be thrilled if the game were extremely static and made it difficult to breakthrough.  Yet I do wonder about the balance of defense and manouevre, and how you can grant more of the latter while remaining historically sound.

Whatever, it's just my impression of play.  Not intended to be a threat to anyone.

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