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RE: Round two - DING YH v TS

 
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RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 6:38:45 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		What game balance do you mean? I thought we had pretty well ascertained that there would be no balance per se, just historical capabilities. The only balance possible is in terms of victory conditions.

(in reply to Japan)
Post #: 181
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 6:53:30 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

I wounder one thing,   How will the  Game  Balance be in  1943  ??



"Balance" would be an impossible convention for WITP, a game based on historic component.


< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/23/2009 6:54:14 PM >

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Post #: 182
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 6:54:12 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Tree and I staged a carrier batter at Wake between Lex and the Hiryu/Soryu. He had converted his fighters to F4F-3As just before the battle and all of them werent repaired before the forces found each other. It wasnt pretty. I had about 36 each Kates and Vals attack with about 21 Zeros escort he had 10 or so CAP. Lex took quite a few hits and sank. His raid came in with only 4 escort fighters to cover 11 TBDs and 17 SBD-2s against my 15 Zeros and I shot him down completely. We are going to re-run the turn and he will pull off and wait unit his fighters are repaired and ready then we will try again.

New build out today, Tree is out of town tomorrow and wed so new AAR starting Thursday.



15 Zeroes took down 32 attackers?

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Post #: 183
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 6:59:19 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well hard to say how many actual shoot downs there were vs how many flight leaders said "screw this" and aborted. I didnt save the turn.

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Post #: 184
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 7:11:45 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well hard to say how many actual shoot downs there were vs how many flight leaders said "screw this" and aborted. I didnt save the turn.



I don´t want to say it wouldn´t be possible to take down 4 Wildcats and 28 bombers with 15 Zeroes but this should be a RARE occassion if they were really shot down. I just got scared a bit as this immediately reminded me about WITP stock...

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Post #: 185
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 7:18:32 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well there are those that would say fighters vs unescorted (or under-defended) bombers should be able to slaughter them. James Swett had 15.5 kills for the war, he got 8 of them in 1 sortie (unescorted Vals).

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Post #: 186
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 7:23:34 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Pretty scary for sure. One thing that seemed to make a fair bit of difference in my CHS mod was drastically reducing pilot experience. Instead of having average exp in the 50-70 range, it was in the 20 - 30 range. I always thought what was the point of having exp from 01-99 if all the pilots were a Saburo Sakai 90+. Like, what was Welch from PH fame doing with a 90+ exp rating on Dec 7th? LOL

Hopefully I can drastically reduce the exp in AE to but I am concerned that simply flying a few missions will ramp up the experience by 5-10 point a pop. I know that there are multiple experience ratings now but still, with pilots flying search missions incessantly, there are going to be alot of 99 exp pilots all over the place. Perhaps there is a max level one can reach through non contact with the enemy.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 2/23/2009 7:24:10 PM >

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 187
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 7:36:04 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Jap Navy pilots dont come out of the chute with 80 experience anymore. They start at 50. This should make a huge difference.

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Post #: 188
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 8:12:01 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Like, what was Welch from PH fame doing with a 90+ exp rating on Dec 7th? LOL



A good point, but when they called it 'experience' they really meant 'skill level', and some pilots start with great skill. I'm not saying his rating is right or wrong, but some pilots are better or worse than others even with the very same training and the very same experience. Not sure if the code really accounts for that. It's a pretty small thing compared to the other, massive improvements they're making.

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Post #: 189
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 8:47:37 PM   
Chad Harrison


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From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

. . . but will try to post at least 1 with every days events (if nothing else, the map so you can see whats going on).



It may not seem like much, but we are hungry for anything we can look at this point, regardless of whether it has been shown already.

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Post #: 190
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 8:50:12 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

. . . but will try to post at least 1 with every days events (if nothing else, the map so you can see whats going on).



It may not seem like much, but we are hungry for anything we can look at this point, regardless of whether it has been shown already.


Ohhh, I make my dog sit pretty and roll over for treats! Do you do any tricks?

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Post #: 191
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 8:51:42 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
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From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Ohhh, I make my dog sit pretty and roll over for treats! Do you do any tricks?



My wife makes *amazing* cinnamon rolls and homemade bread

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Post #: 192
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 8:59:19 PM   
Japan


Posts: 754
Joined: 10/26/2007
From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline 		It seems a lot of things (or most of things) with AE is about Adding One type of advantage here, and One type of Advantage there.. to The Allies, and not so much to the Japanese. Could you describe what things that have been Increased on the Japanese side ?

So Far I'm understanding that Jap Pilot Skills are reduced, Jap Industry Reduced, Allies getting ALL Carriers, Jap player still unable to increase Pilot Training programs himself (something "they could" have done) Jap can still not produce the Liz (something they "could" have done) , ect ect ect ...

What is Lifting Japan up, or what things have been added in AE to Increase Japan's abiletys ?

Surely something is added to counter the fact that the Allies get to fight worse Jap Pilots, and that the Allies getting ALL Carriers ect... OR is it Only Added "Firepower" to the Allied Side ??

The Japs can still not force their Bettys to attack superior Carrier formations without any escort right ?? (who they did IRL) and the Judy still uses a 552 lbs bomb on ALL missions other then Kami.. instead of the 1600 lbs bomb who it did use on Short range missions (as standard - based on WW2 By Thems Accurate research)...


What is Added to Japan to Offset the Bonuses given to the Allies ?

If the Zero Bonus is removed, is the Allied CAP Bonus from 1/44 also removed ?

I can list up 10-15 things, Japan had, or could easily develop who gave them Military advantages in some sort or way, but I could also list up 10-15 things the Allies had who gave them advantages in some sort of way, Now if you add 4 historical advantages for the Allies you should also do it for the Japs.. Assuming they are Historical Capabilities.

So, could you mantion a few added for Japan ???


Will Singapore Fall without a Fight, because it did Historicly ??
Can Japan Build Liz, because "they could" historicly... See my Point ??





< Message edited by Japan -- 2/23/2009 9:09:56 PM >

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Post #: 193
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:06:54 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		As was pointed out above, this is a *historical simulation*, not a *first person shooter* or *real time strategy game*. In the later two, even when based on historical events (such as the great Company of Heroes, or Day of Defeat), balance is everything, with an eye on historical accuracy. So, yes the Tiger tank is still powerfull, but it is balanced to not be too powerful.

The dev team is not 'nerfing' Japan, they are making the entire game more in line with historical parameters and boundaries. So aircraft that sucked in real life, suck in AE. Ships that sucked in real life, suck in AE. The potential and capacity of the Japanease industry is being modelled more similar to what it actually was, and would be capable of. As has been shown in many WitP AAR's, it was possible, and not difficult for the Japanease player to outproduce the US in 1944. I dont need to tell you how much of a fantasy that is.

Unlike RTS and FPS games, winning in WitP is about doing better than your historical counterpart. Considering you can make Japanease ASW TF's on day one of the game, you are already doing better

(in reply to Japan)
Post #: 194
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:13:54 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well the experience levels of allied at start forces has been lowered significantly. Some of the guys in Malaya start with 20 experience (SSVF Bde for 1). A Lot of allied units dont have the option of changing commands. Virtually all the air units that start in the PI for example. Some of the bad commanders are VERY expensive in PPs to change. Dramatic reduction in numbers of troops, air units, and shipping. You can still do an allied Sir Robin, but not nearly as effectively as stock and you wont build up the rear area bases as quick. The allies only have a handful of ships that can make the Capetown to Perth run because of fuel constraints. Theres lots of issues.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Ohhh, I make my dog sit pretty and roll over for treats! Do you do any tricks?



My wife makes *amazing* cinnamon rolls and homemade bread


Ok, errr, so you are offering me your wife?

*Wonders if I could trade mine for a screenshot of something?

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Post #: 195
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:16:31 PM   
Japan


Posts: 754
Joined: 10/26/2007
From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

As was pointed out above, this is a *historical simulation*, not a *first person shooter* or *real time strategy game*. In the later two, even when based on historical events (such as the great Company of Heroes, or Day of Defeat), balance is everything, with an eye on historical accuracy. So, yes the Tiger tank is still powerfull, but it is balanced to not be too powerful.

The dev team is not 'nerfing' Japan, they are making the entire game more in line with historical parameters and boundaries. So aircraft that sucked in real life, suck in AE. Ships that sucked in real life, suck in AE. The potential and capacity of the Japanease industry is being modelled more similar to what it actually was, and would be capable of. As has been shown in many WitP AAR's, it was possible, and not difficult for the Japanease player to outproduce the US in 1944. I dont need to tell you how much of a fantasy that is.

Unlike RTS and FPS games, winning in WitP is about doing better than your historical counterpart. Considering you can make Japanease ASW TF's on day one of the game, you are already doing better




I Agree Fully with you,

But if you study history, you will see that there is probably 20-30 or more Advantages not given to Japan who they should have. And the same applays for the Allies.

The "great" WITP evan presented the KATE with HALF its actual Combat Range, how can one Possibly do that as a mistake ??? It is not a mistake, it is defiantly not a mistake! But as TheELF now have saied, he will correct that in AE.


Regardless, were is the RADAR's who should be on those Emmelyes, and the RADARS who should be on several of the Jap "base" forces. ... Not to mantion that the AAA system for the Late War JAP carriers does not work, the 162 x2 Rocket systems in WITP (who is the AA system) simply is not modeled, it "sayes" its there, but they dont fire because they are not simulated. So basikly, all Jap Late War Carriers comes without AA Fire.


What I'm saying is, if you are going to make this historical, you need to make it historic, not only historical for one side and semi-historical for the other.


What about the enormous Political Pressure on their Commanders to not loose troops, ? Compared to the Japanese who did not care much about own losses, and who had little concern for human life.

Not to mention the Chemical wepons and its combat effect in China... or that Singapore Surrendered without a fight... those things are not in WITP, but was advantages for Japan...

What i'm saying when saying Balance is not Game Balance, but Balance in Historical representation.
That Both sides are "actually" reperesented accurately.

I understand that the main market for the game is in the US and all of that, but still I think it should be Historical to both sides... so the "balance" is that both are historical... if you see my point ?













< Message edited by Japan -- 2/23/2009 9:24:18 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 196
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:17:44 PM   
Japan


Posts: 754
Joined: 10/26/2007
From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well the experience levels of allied at start forces has been lowered significantly. Some of the guys in Malaya start with 20 experience (SSVF Bde for 1). A Lot of allied units dont have the option of changing commands. Virtually all the air units that start in the PI for example. Some of the bad commanders are VERY expensive in PPs to change. Dramatic reduction in numbers of troops, air units, and shipping. You can still do an allied Sir Robin, but not nearly as effectively as stock and you wont build up the rear area bases as quick. The allies only have a handful of ships that can make the Capetown to Perth run because of fuel constraints. Theres lots of issues.









OK Sir, Thank alot for your replay Yamato.

< Message edited by Japan -- 2/23/2009 9:20:02 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 197
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:18:38 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Japan has the biggest advantage there is. An infallible knowledge of allied "at start" locations and exact strengths.

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Post #: 198
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:19:53 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Ok, errr, so you are offering me your wife?



No, shes spoken for. The food is available though

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Post #: 199
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:22:35 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Japan has the biggest advantage there is. An infallible knowledge of allied "at start" locations and exact strengths.


And the Allies SigInt (atleast in stock) is nothing compared to what it was.

Every effort is being made to make AE as historical as possible, but since it is a game, it has its limitations. You cant base an entire war on one or two events. Such as the use of chemical weapons, or the results from Midway, or Manila being declared an open city.

After the game releases, and you have 50 threads in the forums about how Japan is overpowered, and another 50 about how the Allies are overpowered, you know the dev team did a good job

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 200
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:26:05 PM   
Japan


Posts: 754
Joined: 10/26/2007
From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline 		Well I hope in AE the JAP Late War Carriers  will have  AA wepons.   

In WITP the Rockets dont work, as they are only "displayed" on the ship but does not fire...

I Hope the Kate will not have half its actual combat range, and that the Judy will not carry half its combat load, that the Jap fanatic Betty pilots can be forced into mission regardless of odds (as happand historicaly), and that the Japs recive assistanse from the German Mosun Boats and Raiders, and That Japan will get a Industry bonus when capturing POW's... (as they got IRL, especialy in the field when Constructing Forts, Airfields, Ports and Rail).. I hope Demacrocys will declare some Citys for "Open Citys" as was done historicaly, and that those (some) China Commanders could get bribed to not attack and harras Jap units from time to time (as was done historicaly)... And of course, that Political Pressure on Allied Commanders is simulated more realisticly, Ie. If Jap invade Alaska, Washington will hardly ignore it!



Im fine with the Allies getting its things, but so should Japan.





< Message edited by Japan -- 2/23/2009 9:51:11 PM >

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Post #: 201
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 9:55:39 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline 		I keep thinking that ideally there would be some sort of  game option one could choose at the start along the lines of " Japanese Army and Navy do not cooperate all that well " . Sort of like the sub doctrines we get to pick. I am kidding some what, but it does seem that the two branches got in each others way very often, even more so than their  Allied counterparts. I am convinced that that lack of cooperation/trust had a lot to do with Japan's not accomplishing as much as they  perhaps could have in the first year or so of the war.

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Post #: 202
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 10:55:58 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Although I often play Japanese myself, Japan, man, I had a hell damn of a laugh.

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Post #: 203
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 11:00:16 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well to make a true game on the war you need to have a separate player for every major command (and maybe III corps a separate command ) 1 for over all IJN 1 for overall IJA, 1 for Tojo, 1 for overall air, 1 for navy, ect with different victory conditions for each. Like Dougout Dougs would be to see how many units he can get attached directly to SW Pac for example. 3rd fleet commander gets double points for enemy carriers and 3 times if he disobeys his orders and leave a landing force to fight off BBs on its own. Ect. Programming the VC would be a bitch and it might take a few decades to play, but ---

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Post #: 204
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 11:03:21 PM   
Japan


Posts: 754
Joined: 10/26/2007
From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well to make a true game on the war you need to have a separate player for every major command (and maybe III corps a separate command ) 1 for over all IJN 1 for overall IJA, 1 for Tojo, 1 for overall air, 1 for navy, ect with different victory conditions for each. Like Dougout Dougs would be to see how many units he can get attached directly to SW Pac for example. 3rd fleet commander gets double points for enemy carriers and 3 times if he disobeys his orders and leave a landing force to fight off BBs on its own. Ect. Programming the VC would be a bitch and it might take a few decades to play, but ---




Nice, it would been an exiting game.

Imagine if you would have a group of 50 players on each side, all using 8 hours a day from a big opperation central, and the enamy team could have their own opperation central on the other side of the globe... 50 players vs 50 players... hihi it would be fun ! (And we have 6 hour working days, so i think 8 Hour gaming a day would been possible hihi )

_____________________________

AAR VIDEO
THE FIRST YEAR + THE SECOND YEAR
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2133035&mpage=1&key=&

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 205
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 11:15:48 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Japan has the biggest advantage there is. An infallible knowledge of allied "at start" locations and exact strengths.


With this info...and the Japanese army and navy not fighting each other...a players "point results" should be better than what Yamamoto was able to accomplish..
Having an expectation of Japan winning this campagn easily should never hold much credance unless based on points alone..

For a nation the size of California...that should be enough..


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Post #: 206
RE: Round two - DING YH v TS - 2/23/2009 11:25:06 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Matrix should get into providing the hardware and software to host such a game.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 207
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