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One BIG reservation I have - 2/10/2009 11:07:44 PM   
Lanconic

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline 		The effectiveness of FLAK.

If it has (x) effect in the Battle of Britain,
It should have the SAME damn effect in the Bombing of the Reich.

I loath the way the original designers (not Gary, but Talonsoft)
Used FLAK as a simple play balance kludge.

The same way where you max out the flak on some airfield in Germany
and almost all raid you shoot up.

But some sixteen(16) plane raid of Spitfires shows up, somehow the FLAK simply doesnt shoot
at them and they totally ream the planes on the field.

Spitfires dont even carry enough ordinance to do that.

It is a kludge, and it was a LIE.
Post #: 1
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/11/2009 12:31:25 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I am not sure how to try to answer any of that

AA has much better range now, then before

low level Flak can do a number, but more so, if you fly large raids to the same target (IE a 3 FG sweep, the 2nd and 3rd FG are gonna get hit by more alert gunners

I have pulled some of the old Flak traps out, from my reading, most of the flak trap type targets, didn't have flak at them, now what the player or AI is going to do with there AA after the game starts, I can't say

a 16 plane squadron is not going to "major" damage to a airfield on a sweep, it may do heavy losses to something caught in the landing pattern, but the AI does try to slip planes though, so, overall, not as heavy as before

if you break your statements down some more, I may be able to better anwser them




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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/11/2009 2:39:25 PM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

If it has (x) effect in the Battle of Britain,
It should have the SAME damn effect in the Bombing of the Reich.


?? why and what guns should have the same effect ??

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/13/2009 7:46:07 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Just my opinion...

But it makes sense to me that the effects of Flak during BOB in fall of 1940 should not be the same as that in the fall of 1943 even if it were the same armed forces being compared. In BOB we are looking at the Allied AA and in BTR we are looking at the Axis AA 3 years later. Not to mention that the way the Allies were attacking the Axis in 43 was quite different from how the Axis was attacking England in 40.

Whether it is accurately displayed in this game?... uh.... If the Axis flak in 43 is tougher than that of the Allies in 40 then I believe it has been done accurately. The degree to which that has be displayed accurately may be debatable...


I dont have BOB, I only have BTR and I like flying the Allies. My experience is the Flak can be pretty tough on occasion and I accept this as a part of the game that makes it interesting and much more exciting trying to defeat the Axis.

IMHO if it were a cake walk I would have lost my intrigue with this game long ago.

Later,
KayBay

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It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

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Post #: 4
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/13/2009 10:10:51 PM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		Accuracy of AA/Flak varies loosley by year, so the German Flak gunners are better than the Home-Guard guys with an old bofors gun. 

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/14/2009 4:54:11 PM   
Morgan60


Posts: 27
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		There is also the issue of quantity and quality. If I recall correctly in Alfred Prices book "The Hardest Day" he mentions the anti air defences of Kenley as a couple of Bofors and half a dozen WW1 vintage Lewis Guns. Hardly the most impressive amount of Flak and Kenley an important (if not critical) Sector Station.

By 1942-1943 when the strategic bombing offensive really began to roll the Germans had plenty of time to organize efective defences of all sorts. 88's, 105's and numerous 37mm and 20mm guns is markedly superior to macchine gun calibre AA.

Reading the memiors of Bomber Command and 8th AF aircrews all seem to mention German Flak with almost a shudder of horror.

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/21/2009 4:40:29 PM   
Lanconic

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline 		I will give two examples: One Squadron on the ground NOT flying or being prepared to fly.

Airfield Biggin Hill - 400 JU-88 bomb the airfield. About 12k feet. Weather Clear.
Got two planes on the ground knocked out the airfield for ONE day. Lost 22 JU-88

Some airfield in Holland. Flak maxxed out. 16 planes on the ground.
Bomb with 200 B-17 at 12k feet. knock down ONE B-17 lost 10 FW-190
Airfield knocked out for 4 days.

Ok now same airfields....no bombers......

Biggin Hill is hit by EB-210? The best unit the Germans have for strafing.
I lose three off EB-210 and destroy ONE Spitfire. EB - 210 is shot up badly and not usable for a week. Biggin Hill suffered minor damage.

Airfield in Holland Hit by 16 Spitfire VI? They kill three FW-190 and lose NONE.
They damaged ALL the FW-190. The Spits could not fly again for two days because of the fatigue. Not damage.

OK typical game, same airfield in Holland.

I have four Geshwader FW-190 on the ground waiting to intercept the bombers.
ONE Spitfire VI comes in a 5k feet the flack ignores it.
They destroy 18 planes. They reduce ALL the planes to zero rediness
AND they kill the pilots to boot that were assigned to the destroyed planes.
They suffered NO losses. That is in 1944 btw.

I call bullshit on these results. They blatantly favor the allies.
Flak is flak. The Germans were NOT 'nicer' to allied planes.
Nor were the Spits the best strafing platforms ever made until the A-10

Its a delibret kludge. Designed to NOT inflict serious losses on the Brits.
And TO inflict serious losses on the Germans.

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/21/2009 5:15:09 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		interesting, but I got to say, I never seen any results like that in BTR, and I was suppost to be one of the better Allied players way back when

BoB, I can agree, straffing and bombing AFs was a issue and both patches tried to improve on the results (as far as knocking down planes on the ground)

your EB-210, was not the best Straffing Outfit in the LW, they were a unit used to prove the idea of a fighterbomber

I have four Geshwader FW-190 on the ground waiting to intercept the bombers.
Bad idea, never mass on one field
ONE Spitfire VI comes in a 5k feet the flack ignores it.
what kind of Flak ? that is over top of light Flak, and below min range of Heavy flak, so if only MGs and 88s, a plane could fly in, if 20mm or 37mm there, I would say it wouldn't/shouldn't happen, but still they are die rolls, anything "can" happen with a die roll
They destroy 18 planes. They reduce ALL the planes to zero rediness
one Spit V (?) did not kill 18 planes on the ground (do you mean one Squadron ?) and even one Squadron of Spits, that is pretty good shooting, even more so if you are saying they damaged 126 more besides the kills, again, I would have to say, never happened
AND they kill the pilots to boot that were assigned to the destroyed planes.
that I can agree with, old game, the pilot was assigned to the plane, if the planed was lost, the pilot had to see how he came out, WIA, KIA, or got lucky
They suffered NO losses. That is in 1944 btw.
with out knowing the Flak at the base, can't say anything about if they should or shouldn't of been damaged or shot down, but with in the code, one squadron got a chance to get in and get out, before the defences wake up to full readyness, it the 2nd or 3rd ones to come in, that get hammered

really, not trying to be smart, but with out more details I do not really know what you seen, but can only go by what I have seen, and again, I was also one of the top straffer player on the old forum, so have seen more then my fair shair of straffing results

now not sure what you are asking, but I think you are saying the Germen Flak is set up to not damage Allied planes, based on my testers are complaining about, I don't think you will have to worry too much about that, if it was, it is not now



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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/21/2009 10:14:01 PM   
Lanconic

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline 		Oh I assure you Hard Sarge that the results if anything are understated.
I am the same player who edited the Lancaster formations to B-29 stats.
To prove that even w/o any opposition, you could not fly enough missions to bomb all the targets
because of fatigue.

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Post #: 9
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/22/2009 7:06:02 PM   
bigmilt

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 8/17/2004
Status: offline 		Obviously you have a problem with the game...no one is forcing you to buy it.
As with fatique - I don't care what type of plane you are flying - combat flying drains you.
So flying a b17 or a b29 or a lancaster doesn't make a difference. Flying a combat mission
is the same - I would say that low level is alot more draining than a high level job but fatique will
build up. Remember this is not the gulf war where we pushed guys for 90 days but the big
one wwii where it's years of flying.

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Post #: 10
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/22/2009 8:52:17 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Oh I assure you Hard Sarge that the results if anything are understated.
I am the same player who edited the Lancaster formations to B-29 stats.
To prove that even w/o any opposition, you could not fly enough missions to bomb all the targets
because of fatigue.


???? I had never a problem with extreme usage of bombers in the game (just ask Von Shagmeister how I use the Bomber Command)
I would even go as far as to say that the fatigue is not a big factor in BTR as it should be.

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/22/2009 10:17:32 PM   
Lanconic

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bigmilt

Obviously you have a problem with the game...no one is forcing you to buy it.
As with fatique - I don't care what type of plane you are flying - combat flying drains you.
So flying a b17 or a b29 or a lancaster doesn't make a difference. Flying a combat mission
is the same - I would say that low level is alot more draining than a high level job but fatique will
build up. Remember this is not the gulf war where we pushed guys for 90 days but the big
one wwii where it's years of flying.


I have not seen the game in its current form.
It would be more fair to say, I HAD a problem with the game.

I converted the Lancaster to B-29s so that they could fly during the day AND, at high altitude to avoid most FLAK.

and most interceptors.

Thus in theory, the sole source of fatigue would be......flying the mission itself.

You could not sustain a continual bombardment. More than 50% of the returned planes were down for fatigue, not losses.

This plus weather at times meant you got 4 good days a month.
Cant do much w that.

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/25/2009 2:01:33 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

...

Thus in theory, the sole source of fatigue would be......flying the mission itself.

You could not sustain a continual bombardment. More than 50% of the returned planes were down for fatigue, not losses.

This plus weather at times meant you got 4 good days a month.
Cant do much w that.



I thought I read, in the manual, that fatigue was added for each hour of flying? As it should be.

The part about the weather, heck that is why I "like?" this game.

TS

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Post #: 13
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/25/2009 2:07:25 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


... but I think you are saying the Germen Flak is set up to not damage Allied planes, based on my testers are complaining about, ...




Having just flown a series of Allied fighter sweeps into the Toul area...

You can add my vote with your tester!

Keep makin' it Hard, Sarge?

TS

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Post #: 14
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/26/2009 6:25:03 PM   
jjjanos

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Wheaton, MD
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ONE Spitfire VI comes in a 5k feet the flack ignores it.

what kind of Flak ? that is over top of light Flak, and below min range of Heavy flak, so if only MGs and 88s, a plane could fly in, if 20mm or 37mm there, I would say it wouldn't/shouldn't happen, but still they are die rolls, anything "can" happen with a die roll


The Spitfire straffed the airfield at an altitude of 5K? That's almost 1 mile high. He destroyed 18 targets at that distance? Sign this guy up for the Olympic shooting team because with aim like that he's a crack marksman!

Sorry, but if this story is true, I've got to say that there's a SNAFU somewhere. The plane is going to hit the deck to straff.

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Post #: 15
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/26/2009 8:05:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		in game, you set flight alt, when at target, unit will then go to raid alt, so a sweep, will drop to the deck, a Divebomber will dive to the target, him saying 5 K alt, just means that is the Alt that the Spits flew to the target at

Level bombers will with in reason, fly to the target at assigned Alt and bomb from that Alt


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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/27/2009 8:12:54 AM   
Dobey455

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		If I may be allowede to wander off topic ever so slightly....

In the new version of the game will fighter bombers be able to strafe? I'd rather sweep airfields with typhoons and Mosquito FB's which are better armed and armoured than the spits.

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Post #: 17
RE: One BIG reservation I have - 2/27/2009 12:42:21 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		yes, FB can sweep

Tiffies make good sweepers, Mossies are  worth too much to really take many chances with them in my mind at least (but I have dones some good damage with them on sweeps)


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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 3/1/2009 10:56:25 PM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		HS;

What about the night fighters?

In the old game, the two 100 Sqdn's Mossie FB were able to sweep -- read as STRAFE ANYTHING, ANYWHERE -- during full moon periods. These can be changed to Typh or Temps; but in my style of play, these models are in short supply until late in the war.

I always thought that the P-61's carrying bombs should be able to do the same thing.

In truth, this was about the only thing I found these two units useful for.

TS

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RE: One BIG reservation I have - 3/4/2009 4:43:22 PM   
jjjanos

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Wheaton, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

in game, you set flight alt, when at target, unit will then go to raid alt, so a sweep, will drop to the deck, a Divebomber will dive to the target, him saying 5 K alt, just means that is the Alt that the Spits flew to the target at

Level bombers will with in reason, fly to the target at assigned Alt and bomb from that Alt



Exactly. A single spit doesn't have enough payload to destroy that many A/C with bombs. It had to be a strafe. Thus, he dropped down from 5K and into the range of the light guns.

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