Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

But if you want to read about German ineptitude and British brilliance in all regards, technical, intelligence, political, the works, read his book, Fighter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I was just setting up the CW in Lebensraum and I was thinking that the Osprey carrier fighter must get the award for the most useless air unit in the game. There are four Osprey fighters in the setup and, as with all WiF counters, there are minor variations in the combat factors between counters. Here is the worst one:

Air to Air: 0
Air to Sea : None
Tactical Bombing : None
Strategic Bombing : None
Range : 3

I guess if they are all that stand between your carrier and a couple of waves of Ju-87D Stuka divebombers (air to air factor of three) then they might hold the enemy off long enough for you to abandon ship in an orderly fashion, but don't count on it. It's actually quite sad for the CW that these fighters are still in the setup pool in mid-1941, but for this game I think I'll scrap them immediately.

In the WiF system Air-to-Air combat is a relative strength so a factor of zero doesn't mean that the unit is unarmed, merely that it fights less effectively than an aircraft with a strength of one (Arado Ar-68) or two (defensive fire from a Dornier Do-17M) or three (Gloster Gladiator) ... or thirteen (Me262 A-1c) or fourteen (Gotha Go229B).

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I was just setting up the CW in Lebensraum and I was thinking that the Osprey carrier fighter must get the award for the most useless air unit in the game. There are four Osprey fighters in the setup and, as with all WiF counters, there are minor variations in the combat factors between counters. Here is the worst one:

Air to Air: 0
Air to Sea : None
Tactical Bombing : None
Strategic Bombing : None
Range : 3

I guess if they are all that stand between your carrier and a couple of waves of Ju-87D Stuka divebombers (air to air factor of three) then they might hold the enemy off long enough for you to abandon ship in an orderly fashion, but don't count on it. It's actually quite sad for the CW that these fighters are still in the setup pool in mid-1941, but for this game I think I'll scrap them immediately.

In the WiF system Air-to-Air combat is a relative strength so a factor of zero doesn't mean that the unit is unarmed, merely that it fights less effectively than an aircraft with a strength of one (Arado Ar-68) or two (defensive fire from a Dornier Do-17M) or three (Gloster Gladiator) ... or thirteen (Me262 A-1c) or fourteen (Gotha Go229B).

Greyshaft, the game looks great and well worth the wait, however

The Hawker Osprey, with only 30 in service in training duties hardly rates 4 counters.

From http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Osprey.htm

The Hawker Osprey was a 2 seat biplane fighter. It was a naval reconaissance-fighter development of the Hart biplane bomber.

It went into service in the Fleet Air Arm at the same time as the Nimrod, in 1931. Both types were represented in the mixed flight of new aircraft carried in HMS Eagle for demonstration at the British Empire trade Exhibition, Buenos Aires, in March 1931. 112 were built.

By the start of the Second Woprld War only 30 surviving Osprey still served withthe Fleet Air Arm. All were used as trainers with 755, 758, 759 and 780 squadrons, except for K5750 which served at the Experimental Station Porton from 7 February 1942 in Chemical Warfare Trials.

The last Osprey to serve with the Fleet Air Arm was K5757 which was paid off on 27 April 1944.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The CW player has the option of scrapping these 4 units at the start of the war (because they are such an old design) - or he can leave them in the force pool and maybe draw them randomly when he builds carrier air units (or draw them as units to be placed on the map at setup). The choice is up to the player. Historically it appears the British decided to not build (or stop building) this type of aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The CW player has the option of scrapping these 4 units at the start of the war (because they are such an old design) - or he can leave them in the force pool and maybe draw them randomly when he builds carrier air units (or draw them as units to be placed on the map at setup). The choice is up to the player. Historically it appears the British decided to not build (or stop building) this type of aircraft.

And scrapping them is exactly what I did do.. as any sane Lebensraum player would do... unless they decided that they wanted to try a carrier campaign that built carriers and carrier planes at the expense of everything else.

That's the beauty of MWiF... you can choose an ahistorical strategy that doesn't make sense to anyone except yourself and follow it through to its logical conclusion... what would happen if I didn't scrap the Ospresys?

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
If playing with pilots, keep any zero-costing CVPs. You don't have to put them any closer to the map then the reserve pool and they come in handy for manipulating/maintaining aircraft gearing limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Undo... a handy feature

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The basic rule is: if your opponent made a decision, then you do not get to undo any moves prior to his decision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gresbeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The basic rule is: if your opponent made a decision, then you do not get to undo any moves prior to his decision.

And what if a moving unit spots an enemy that was in fog of war and couldn't be seen before? An undoing would seem unfair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gresbeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The basic rule is: if your opponent made a decision, then you do not get to undo any moves prior to his decision.

And what if a moving unit spots an enemy that was in fog of war and couldn't be seen before? An undoing would seem unfair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Bit disappointed with no Fog of war. I understand your reason...but still a bit disappointed.

I don't think it will affect my purchase decision, but I like surprises on the battlefield.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

You might be surprised at the surprises you can still face despite knowing where all of your opponent's forces are (I speak from bitter personal experience).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

And unless WiF has changed enormously since I played in the mid to late 80's when I was in college (egads I am old!) there is still plenty of uncertainty even with the units in view.

The Strategic objectives for certain, just because you know where the units are, you don't know for sure where your opponent placed his emphasis before the game starts, and hence there is alot of uncertainty in that.

Also in the scale of corps and 2 months of time, its debatable if FoW is even very appropriate for land forces. The Naval forces its a little harder to justify but I think the whole seazone approach helps mitigate that somewhat.

In short rememeber this is faithful adaptation of a board game. And getting more complex than 'Battleship' with Fog of War in a tabletop game is problematical.

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Bit disappointed with no Fog of war. I understand your reason...but still a bit disappointed.

I don't think it will affect my purchase decision, but I like surprises on the battlefield.

That would drastically change the game. I think it would be interesting in another version.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Bit disappointed with no Fog of war. I understand your reason...but still a bit disappointed.

I don't think it will affect my purchase decision, but I like surprises on the battlefield.

That would drastically change the game. I think it would be interesting in another version.

is fog of war represented in the actual board game - if not i suppose it makes sense - you would see all your players counters on the board

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Bit disappointed with no Fog of war. I understand your reason...but still a bit disappointed.

I don't think it will affect my purchase decision, but I like surprises on the battlefield.

That would drastically change the game. I think it would be interesting in another version.

is fog of war represented in the actual board game - if not i suppose it makes sense - you would see all your players counters on the board

WIF FE (the board game version of WIF) does not have fog of war. It is something introduced as an optionla rule in CWIF but, as I have said before, there are a lot of problems with figuring out how to implement it, much less what it really represents.

MWIF and WIF FE do not contain fog of war but that does not mean the game plays like chess. The order in which a player chooses to move his naval units and which air missions he chooses for his bombers (especially the multi-purpose bombers) is always unknown. The movement allowance for land units (especially armor and mechanized units) is so great that it if possible to shift a significant portion of your attack (or defensive) strength 500 miles in one impulse, and there are numerous impulses in a 2 month turn.

I could go on and mention another dozen ways in which you do not know what your opponent is going to do in WIF. I've always considered this a reasonable way to model fog of war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Thanks Greyshaft, I will look closely at it.

Is possible rename the counters?

Yes.

There are a few that cannot be renamed because of their special capabilities (e.g., Stilwell). Also, renaming units would have to be done for each new game, since determining which units are to be setup (and where) requires many units to not have their names changed. For example, all the capital ships are referenced by name for which ones set up where (and the same for HQ units).

A more elaborate system could be developed, but that falls into my category of WIF design kit - not part of MWIF product 1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Thanks Greyshaft, I will look closely at it.

Is possible rename the counters?

Yes.

There are a few that cannot be renamed because of their special capabilities (e.g., Stilwell). Also, renaming units would have to be done for each new game, since determining which units are to be setup (and where) requires many units to not have their names changed. For example, all the capital ships are referenced by name for which ones set up where (and the same for HQ units).

A more elaborate system could be developed, but that falls into my category of WIF design kit - not part of MWIF product 1.

Would it not be better to assign each Unit a Number or Code, and leave the name for display only?

Lee

// ****************************************************************************
// Second scenario
// ****************************************************************************
      scGuadalcanal:
      begin
        case MCIndex of
          mcCommonwealth:  // Guadalcanal
          begin
            AddGroupCountry(['South Africa'], ['[South Africa]', 'MI 1',
              'TE 1', '[United Kingdom]', 'CN 1', 'CN 1']);

            AddGroupCountry(['Italian Somaliland'], ['[United Kingdom]',
              'IN 1', 'CN 1']);

            AddGroupCountry(['Australia'], ['[Australia]', 'MO 1', 'IN 1',
              'MI 1', 'TE 1', '[United Kingdom]', 'CN 1', '[Commonwealth]',
              'OI 1']);

            AddGroupCountry(['Burma', 'India', 'Ceylon'],
              ['[India]', 'IN 1', 'MI 1', 'GA 1', 'TE 2',
              '[United Kingdom]', 'HQ Wavell', 'IN 1', 'AT 1',
              'CS Formidable', 'CS Illustrious', 'CS Indomitable',
              'CS Resolution', 'CS Revenge', 'CS Warspite', 'CS Ramillies',
              'CS Renown', 'CS Royal Sovereign', 'CS Hawkins', 'CS Birmingham',
              'CS Devonshire', 'CS Frobisher', 'CS Glasgow', 'CS Mauritius',
              'CL Ceres', 'CL Danae', 'CL Emerald', 'CL Caledon', 'CL Capetown',
              'CL Dragon', 'CL Enterprise', 'CL Phoebe', 'NT 1',
              'CN 1', 'CP 5/3',
              '[Australia]', 'CS Australia', 'CS Canberra', 'CL Adelaide',
              'CL Hobart',
              '[New Zealand]', 'CS Gambia', 'CL Achilles', 'CL Leander',
              '[Netherlands]', 'CS Sumatra', 'CL Jacob van Heemskerck',
                'CL Tromp',
              '[Commonwealth]', 'ASW 1', 'OI 1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tJulAug, 1942, False, ['[United Kingdom]',
              'F2 1', 'PI 1', 'CL Durban']);

            AddGroupProduction(tSepOct, 1942, False, ['[United Kingdom]',
              'CS Sussex', 'AM 1', 'SU 1']);
          end;

          mcJapan:         // Guadalcanal
          begin
            FormosaMilitiaOK := True;

            AddGroupCountry(['Japan'], ['IN 1', 'MI 2', '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'EN 1',
              'N2 1', 'PI 1', 'OI 8']);

            AddGroupCountry(['Siam'], ['[Siam]', 'MI 1']);

            AddGroupCountry(['Burma'], ['HQ Yamashita', 'IN 1', 'F2 1',
              'PI 1']);

            AddGroupSimple(lPacificAsia, ['HQ Yamamoto', 'IN 2', 'MA 2',
              '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'MA 1', 'F2 1/1', 'L3 1/1', 'N2 1/1',
              'N3 1/1', 'A3 1', 'PI 5', 'CS Akagi', 'CS Hiryu', 'CS Junyo',
              'CS Kaga', 'CS Ryujo', 'CS Shokaku', 'CS Soryu', 'CS Zuikaku',
              'CS Fuso', 'CS Hiei', 'CS Ise', 'CS Kongo', 'CS Nagato',
              'CS Yamato', 'CS Atago', 'CS Kako', 'CS Mogami', 'CS Myoko',
              'CS Tone', 'CS Hosho', 'CS Shoho', 'CS Taiyo', 'CS Unyo',
              'CS Zuiho', 'CS Haruna', 'CS Hyuga', 'CS Kirishima',
              'CS Mutsu', 'CS Yamashiro', 'CS Aoba', 'CS Ashigara',
              'CS Chikuma', 'CS Chokai', 'CS Furutaka', 'CS Haguro',
              'CS Idzumo', 'CS Kinugasa', 'CS Kumano', 'CS Maya',
              'CS Mikuma', 'CS Nachi', 'CS Suzuya', 'CS Takao', 'CL Katori',
              'CL Natori', 'CL Oi', 'CL Sendai', 'CL Tenryu', 'CL Yura',
              'CL Abukuma', 'CL Isuzu', 'CL Jintsu', 'CL Kashii', 'CL Kashima',
              'CL Kinu', 'CL Kiso', 'CL Kitakami', 'CL Kuma', 'CL Nagara',
              'CL Naka', 'CL Ping Hai', 'CL Tama', 'CL Tatsuta', 'CL Yubari',
              'ASW 1', 'NT 3', 'AM 1', 'SU 4', 'CN 24', 'CP 17/12']);  

            AddGroupRepairPool(['CS Asama']);

            AddGroupProduction(tJulAug, 1942, False, ['IN 1', 'F2 1', 'PI 1',
              'CS Hiyo', 'CS Musashi', 'CP 1/1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tSepOct, 1942, False, ['CL Agano', 'IN 1',
              'N3 1', 'PI 1', 'CP 1/1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tNovDec, 1942, False, ['IN 1', 'CS Chuyo',
              'CS Ryuho', 'CN 1', 'CP 1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tJanFeb, 1943, False, ['IN 1', 'CS Oyodo']);
          end;

          mcUnitedStates:  // Guadalcanal
          begin
            AddGroupSimple(lUSAEastCoast, ['L3 1', 'PI 1', 'CS Hornet',
              'CS Washington', 'CS North Carolina', 'CL Columbia']);

            AddGroupSimple(lUSAWestCoast, ['MO 1', 'IN 1', 'MA 1', '[Div]',
              'EN 1', 'CS Saratoga', 'CS Colorado', 'CS Louisville']);

            AddGroupSimple(lPacificAmerica, ['HQ MacArthur', '[Div]', 'AT 1',
              'MA 1', 'F2 2/1', 'L3 1',	'N3 1', 'PI 4', 'CP 6/4',
              'OI 2', 'CS Lexington', 'CS Yorktown', 'CS Chicago',
              'CS New Orleans', 'CS Portland', 'CS Salt Lake City',
              'CS San Francisco', 'CS Vincennes', 'CL Brooklyn', 'CL Omaha',
              'CL San Diego', 'CL Helena', 'CL Juneau', 'CL Marblehead',
              'CL Phoenix', 'CL Raleigh', 'CL Richmond', 'ASW 1', 'NT 1',
              'SU 1', 'CN 10']);

            AddGroupCity('Honolulu', EmptyStr, ['HQ Nimitz',
              'CP 2/1', 'CS Enterprise', 'CS Maryland', 'CS Mississippi',
              'CS Pennsylvania', 'CS Pensacola', 'CS Idaho', 'CS New Mexico',
              'CS Astoria', 'CS Chester', 'CS Indianapolis', 'CS Minneapolis',
              'CS Northampton', 'CL Atlanta', 'CL St. Louis', 'CL Boise',
              'CL Detroit', 'CL Honolulu', 'CL Nashville', 'CL San Juan',
              'NT 1', 'SU 1']);

            AddGroupRepairPool(['CS Tennessee', 'CS Nevada']);

            AddGroupProduction(tJulAug, 1942, False, ['IN 1', 'N2 1', 'PI 1',
              'CP 1/1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tSepOct, 1942, False, ['L3 1', 'PI 1', 'AM 1',
              'CL Denver', 'CL Montpellier', 'CP 1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tNovDec, 1942, False, ['CS Essex', 'CP 1/1']);

            AddGroupProduction(tJanFeb, 1943, False, ['CS Lexington II',
              'CL Birmingham', 'CL Santa Fe']);
          end;
        end;
      end;