RE: Rifle Squad Differences?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: Rifle Squad Differences?

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/30/2009 6:41:46 AM

Veer

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quote:

I've never understood why TOAW was designed this way. In fact, I don't see why it couldn't be changed now. Rather than the 'squad' as the base unit, we could just have different flavors of individual riflemen and MG teams. Naturally, all the other numbers in the database would need to get multiplied -- but so what? It just doesn't sound very hard.

Hi Colin, long time no hear.

I agree, the above would have been a much better way to model inf since all other unit types are individual anyway. The stats of each squad would also have to be multiplied downward and the stats of each other unit in the db adjusted accordingly. Would throw pretty much every scenario out of wack, which is why the perfect time to do it would have been with the release of TOAW III.

ah well, looks like we'll have to wait for TOAW IV....

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Post #: 151

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/30/2009 11:45:14 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veer

I agree, the above would have been a much better way to model inf since all other unit types are individual anyway. The stats of each squad would also have to be multiplied downward and the stats of each other unit in the db adjusted accordingly. Would throw pretty much every scenario out of wack, which is why the perfect time to do it would have been with the release of TOAW III.

As far as continuity goes, there's no reason why you couldn't have squads AND individual infantry weapons. Then existing scenarios would be unchanged, just with all the values scaled up.

Not that I think it's necessarily a hot idea. It will just encourage people to count rifles "Well, the colonel's batman has a rifle, so I'll add him too..."

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Post #: 152

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/30/2009 3:54:15 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
It will just encourage people to count rifles . . .

Stated as though this doesn�t already happen on a daily basis.

If people want to count rifles and rivets, go ahead and let them have their fun. After all, that�s what it's is all about.

Regards, RhinoBones

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Post #: 153

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/30/2009 4:01:43 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Stated as though this doesn�t already happen on a daily basis.

Your posts happen, too. However, I still feel it is important not to do anything to encourage them.

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Post #: 154

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/30/2009 4:29:55 PM

rhinobones

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Them? Who exactly are the "Them"? Are you not one of the "Them"?

As a military historian, I would think that individual rifles would be of great interest to you. Why would you want to limit the fun of others to count rifles?

Do you not count rivets? Wouldn�t take much of a search to find debates where you provided input to the number of individual weapons and rivits assigned to protect the shores in 1940.

Regards, RhinoBones

< Message edited by rhinobones -- 5/31/2009 12:05:45 AM >

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Post #: 155

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 5/31/2009 12:35:59 AM

Veer

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quote:

As far as continuity goes, there's no reason why you couldn't have squads AND individual infantry weapons. Then existing scenarios would be unchanged, just with all the values scaled up.

Interesting, so is there a reason why it can't be done thataway? Either via BioEd or a matrix-update patch?

I'm thinking if it was fairly simple to do it would be done already.

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Post #: 156

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 6/1/2009 11:15:15 PM

rhinobones

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Like the idea, but wonder whether it is practical due to the mathematics. By this I mean that the current AP for rifle squads� starts at such a low number assigning APs to individuals requires getting into fractional numbers. The more primitive the weapon, the smaller the fraction. If someone wanted to BioEd a database for individual soldiers, think that they would need to start a basic rifleman around 20AP and scale everything from there on.

What would the comparative AP of a 1940�s tank or a 210mm HE round be if a semi automatic rifle started at 20? Maybe this is why Norm elected to use squads rather than individual soldiers.

Regards, RhinoBones

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Post #: 157

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 7/26/2009 12:40:24 AM

Panzer War

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I think it could be possible with obvious tweaking and testing, as well focusing on a smaller time period than from 19th century on would help. I would see the basic rifle man with a bolt action rifle with a 1 ap and a defense strength of 4-10. Not sure if you would want the 1,000s of units for a regiment and up though. ive done some tinkering with fire teams instead of squads for modern scenarios given the usual smaller unit scales of them.
been a while since I messed with toaw or bioed but IIRC each unit fires 3 times a round in combat. so this would mean that a tank could only kill 3 soldiers every round! I see this more as the problem and that their would need to be adjustments to this for it to work.

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Post #: 158

RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 7/26/2009 6:03:47 PM

vahauser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Like the idea, but wonder whether it is practical due to the mathematics. By this I mean that the current AP for rifle squads� starts at such a low number assigning APs to individuals requires getting into fractional numbers. The more primitive the weapon, the smaller the fraction. If someone wanted to BioEd a database for individual soldiers, think that they would need to start a basic rifleman around 20AP and scale everything from there on.

What would the comparative AP of a 1940�s tank or a 210mm HE round be if a semi automatic rifle started at 20? Maybe this is why Norm elected to use squads rather than individual soldiers.

Regards, RhinoBones

Colonel Dupuy wrote a book about this called Numbers, Predictions, and War. In that book, Dupuy quantifies a large number of weapons. So, if you used Dupuy's book, then you could answer the question: If a rifle is X, then what is a 210mm HE round?

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