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sea boxes - 3/31/2009 11:46:35 PM

willycube

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

I admit I am confused by sea boxes, where is the best information located for me to read up on concerning all the possibilities that can happen with sea boxes including die roll and how they effect each box. On page 2, post 50 under what kind of manual it shows a Japanese plane on Papua, in one aspect it flies one hex in the Coral Sea and then it goes into a box. What is the point of going one hex or two hexes or 5 hexes, I realize it has to do with moves left to go into certain sea boxes. What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went, I know it was an example and I am probably saying things wrong here but I trully dont understand this. On land a unit moves into another hex no problem, easy to understand, but ships and planes moving around the ocean confuse me with these boxes.

Willy

Post #: 1

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 12:04:27 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I admit I am confused by sea boxes, where is the best information located for me to read up on concerning all the possibilities that can happen with sea boxes including die roll and how they effect each box. On page 2, post 50 under what kind of manual it shows a Japanese plane on Papua, in one aspect it flies one hex in the Coral Sea and then it goes into a box. What is the point of going one hex or two hexes or 5 hexes, I realize it has to do with moves left to go into certain sea boxes. What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went, I know it was an example and I am probably saying things wrong here but I trully dont understand this. On land a unit moves into another hex no problem, easy to understand, but ships and planes moving around the ocean confuse me with these boxes.

Willy

Maybe this will help. These pages are taken from the Picture & Text tutorials.

Paragraphs 4 and 5 from tutorial 3 page 9 and paragraphs 3 and 4 from tutorial 5 page 1.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 2

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 1:35:46 AM

Sewerlobster

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube
I admit I am confused by sea boxes, where is the best information located for me to read up on concerning all the possibilities that can happen with sea boxes including die roll and how they effect each box. On page 2, post 50 under what kind of manual it shows a Japanese plane on Papua, in one aspect it flies one hex in the Coral Sea and then it goes into a box. What is the point of going one hex or two hexes or 5 hexes, I realize it has to do with moves left to go into certain sea boxes. What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went, I know it was an example and I am probably saying things wrong here but I trully dont understand this. On land a unit moves into another hex no problem, easy to understand, but ships and planes moving around the ocean confuse me with these boxes.
Willy

In regards to your question about the Japanese plane: air units must first fly to any sea hex in the area and then can "climb" the sea boxes. Therefore an air unit based in a coastal hex is better positioned to conduct naval missions while inland air units are more likely to have insufficient mp to reach the 4 box.
Remember the sea box represents the amount of time during the turn that the naval and air units spend in the sea area cruising around looking for the enemy. So ship with 4 mp can leave port and cross a vast ocean in a turn but be at risk because it's in the 0 box or leave port and patrol a nearby sea area effectively by being in the 3 box or leave port and patrol a distant sea area poorly by say being in the 1 box. Air units can not for example be based in the Western US and be expected to actually patrol anything but the neighboring sea areas.

_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 3

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 2:56:04 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube
I admit I am confused by sea boxes, where is the best information located for me to read up on concerning all the possibilities that can happen with sea boxes including die roll and how they effect each box. On page 2, post 50 under what kind of manual it shows a Japanese plane on Papua, in one aspect it flies one hex in the Coral Sea and then it goes into a box. What is the point of going one hex or two hexes or 5 hexes, I realize it has to do with moves left to go into certain sea boxes. What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went, I know it was an example and I am probably saying things wrong here but I trully dont understand this. On land a unit moves into another hex no problem, easy to understand, but ships and planes moving around the ocean confuse me with these boxes.
Willy

In regards to your question about the Japanese plane: air units must first fly to any sea hex in the area and then can "climb" the sea boxes. Therefore an air unit based in a coastal hex is better positioned to conduct naval missions while inland air units are more likely to have insufficient mp to reach the 4 box.
Remember the sea box represents the amount of time during the turn that the naval and air units spend in the sea area cruising around looking for the enemy. So ship with 4 mp can leave port and cross a vast ocean in a turn but be at risk because it's in the 0 box or leave port and patrol a nearby sea area effectively by being in the 3 box or leave port and patrol a distant sea area poorly by say being in the 1 box. Air units can not for example be based in the Western US and be expected to actually patrol anything but the neighboring sea areas.

Here is the section from Rules as Coded concerning this.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)

Post #: 4

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 3:37:20 AM

willycube

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

Thank you gentlemen for a quick response, so Sewerstar are you saying the higher box the better? Steve this is the chart I was referring to, wouldn't it be better for the Japanese on Papua to go that one hex so he could go to a 4 box or go to the first hex of a new sea area and go into the highest hex he can with whatever moves he has left?

Willy

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 5

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 3:41:46 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Thank you gentlemen for a quick response, so Sewerstar are you saying the higher box the better? Steve this is the chart I was referring to, wouldn't it be better for the Japanese on Papua to go that one hex so he could go to a 4 box or go to the first hex of a new sea area and go into the highest hex he can with whatever moves he has left?

Willy

Sometimes you want to keep your units together in the same sea box section. When they are in separate boxes your opponent might roll better dice than you and be able to choose which sea box sections to include in the combat. Note that he can't choose individual units, but he can pick and choose any sea box sections he wants to.

For example, the US might want to place supporting air and naval units in the 0 box of the Coral Sea to guarantee that the convoy there doesn't have to fight alone.

EDIT: There are a zillion of these little trade-off decisions in WIF.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 4/1/2009 3:42:42 AM >

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 6

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 7:01:57 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went...

The physical location of the sea boxes on the map does not have any bearing on the distance those boxes are from any of the hex dots within�a particular�sea zone.

Looking at the screen shot of the map in post #4, lets say I have an air unit based on Henderson Field (the minor port on�Guadalcanal), and that it has a range value of 6. If I were to fly a naval air mission with it into "The Solomons" sea zone, I would need to expend 2 movement points to reach�the closest�sea-hex dot in that sea zone.

It doesn't matter too much if I decide to fly the air unit to the dot due east of Guadalcanal (the hex with the majority of the word "field" in it), or the hex dot NW of Guadalcanal (the hex with�the words "The Slot" and "Vella Lavella Baa Baa Baah" in it). Either way, 2MP's are expended, and the air unit can only be placed in the 0, 1, or 2 sea box (my choice among those). Those sea boxes are merely "holding areas", game-system-wise, and are equidistant from any hex dot in that sea zone.

O/T: I don't recall if air units conducting the "move to sea" portion of a Naval Air mission can be intercepted before they get to a sea box. I don't think so.

< Message edited by mlees -- 4/1/2009 7:07:24 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 7

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 8:01:19 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

What I dont understand is why that one hex away was picked when it seems that everything is controlled by the sea boxes which can be several hexes from where that plane went...

The physical location of the sea boxes on the map does not have any bearing on the distance those boxes are from any of the hex dots within�a particular�sea zone.

Looking at the screen shot of the map in post #4, lets say I have an air unit based on Henderson Field (the minor port on�Guadalcanal), and that it has a range value of 6. If I were to fly a naval air mission with it into "The Solomons" sea zone, I would need to expend 2 movement points to reach�the closest�sea-hex dot in that sea zone.

It doesn't matter too much if I decide to fly the air unit to the dot due east of Guadalcanal (the hex with the majority of the word "field" in it), or the hex dot NW of Guadalcanal (the hex with�the words "The Slot" and "Vella Lavella Baa Baa Baah" in it). Either way, 2MP's are expended, and the air unit can only be placed in the 0, 1, or 2 sea box (my choice among those). Those sea boxes are merely "holding areas", game-system-wise, and are equidistant from any hex dot in that sea zone.

O/T: I don't recall if air units conducting the "move to sea" portion of a Naval Air mission can be intercepted before they get to a sea box. I don't think so.

No, they can not be intercepted.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 8

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 8:44:40 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
O/T: I don't recall if air units conducting the "move to sea" portion of a Naval Air mission can be intercepted before they get to a sea box. I don't think so.

No, they can not be intercepted.

The FAQ says that they can, over land :

*****************************************
Q14.2-2> A long-ranged NAV starts in England and crosses occupied France, Germany and Italy to conduct a Naval Air Mission in the Med. Can Italian & German�s FTR near the flight path make an En-route aircraft interception of the NAV before it gets to the first hexdot of the Med Sea Area ?

Ans> Yes, provided you are playing option 51. Date 30/01/1997
*****************************************

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 9

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 9:32:19 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
O/T: I don't recall if air units conducting the "move to sea" portion of a Naval Air mission can be intercepted before they get to a sea box. I don't think so.

No, they can not be intercepted.

The FAQ says that they can, over land :

*****************************************
Q14.2-2> A long-ranged NAV starts in England and crosses occupied France, Germany and Italy to conduct a Naval Air Mission in the Med. Can Italian & German�s FTR near the flight path make an En-route aircraft interception of the NAV before it gets to the first hexdot of the Med Sea Area ?

Ans> Yes, provided you are playing option 51. Date 30/01/1997
*****************************************

Ok, thanks. For some reason, I thought that option only applied to air-to-ground missions. (Ground support, strategic bombing.)

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 10

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 10:36:52 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Yes, me too, especially as naval air missions don't have objective hexes, and Option 51 talks about Objective hexes.
But Harry replied "yes" to the question.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 11

RE: sea boxes - 4/1/2009 10:45:35 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Yes, me too, especially as naval air missions don't have objective hexes, and Option 51 talks about Objective hexes.
But Harry replied "yes" to the question.

I haven't written the code for En-route interception yet, so those rules are not fresh in my mind.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 12

RE: sea boxes - 4/2/2009 1:37:55 AM

Sewerlobster

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube
Thank you gentlemen for a quick response, so Sewerstar are you saying the higher box the better? Steve this is the chart I was referring to, wouldn't it be better for the Japanese on Papua to go that one hex so he could go to a 4 box or go to the first hex of a new sea area and go into the highest hex he can with whatever moves he has left?
Willy

For straight up combat, yes -- sort of. Imagine a sea area where both sides have convoys in the zero box and surface and air units in all the boxes. The first step of naval combat is the search roll. Since both sides have air units in the 4 box in all likelyhood there will be at least one round of combat. In this extreme example you might think you're in for a big time battle but all kind of things could happen.
Briefly:

First both sides roll horrendous search rolls and there is no combat; the sea area is huge, the ships are tiny and they move they just didn't find each other in a way that results in game scale combat. Screw that, it's not a fun example.
Second maybe only one side (The Axis) rolls a horrendous number and the other side rolls just good enough so that only its 4 box units may fight; these Allied units pick one or more Axis boxes to fight -- since there are air units in the allied box and the axis are surprised the allies can pick whether this is a surface or naval air combat and one round is fought - let's say the allies choose a naval air attack against just the axis 0 box. After the combat is resolved all the surviving units go back to there respective sea box. Either side may now abort -- screw that too, no fun. Now there is a second search roll and this time the axis get the best roll possible allowing their 1,2,3 and 4 boxes to fight while the the allies get only the 4 box qualified -- as both sides have air units, it's a naval air battle. Fight the round, put the survivors back in their boxes and see if anyone goes home. If not roll for another search and keep fighting until one side or the other is gone from the box or until both sides fail to find the enemy.

_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 13