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Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/9/2009 3:49:15 PM

Missouri Rebel

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I am a complete noob when it comes to these monster games but, I do have a very limited understanding of A3R/ Empire of the Rising Sun/ World at war. Is WiF a better system for those that know both?

In which areas does WiF excel? In what other areas does it lack compared to A3R?

One thing that I liked about A3R were the special rules regarding many of the neutral countries. Does WiF handle the various neutrals individually or there general rules regarding them?

Thanks in advance.

mo reb

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/9/2009 3:54:17 PM

Ron Belcher

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To a simple reply... MO_Reb... please ck out the MatrixGames site for WiF, respectively.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/296/details/World.In.Flames

(in reply to Missouri Rebel)

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/9/2009 3:56:53 PM

Ron Belcher

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From: Clovis, CA USA
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With that being said, this game while still in development is going to be one of the best boardgame to PC
transitions! I am at an awe with this venture. I would like to see it as a stepping stone for Advanced
Squad Leader to be ported on to the PC platform (yeah, I know.. don't hold my breath!). Here's to hopes
and prayer's none the less. =)

(in reply to Ron Belcher)

Post #: 3

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 4:14:27 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

I am a complete noob when it comes to these monster games but, I do have a very limited understanding of A3R/ Empire of the Rising Sun/ World at war. Is WiF a better system for those that know both?

In which areas does WiF excel? In what other areas does it lack compared to A3R?

One thing that I liked about A3R were the special rules regarding many of the neutral countries. Does WiF handle the various neutrals individually or there general rules regarding them?

Thanks in advance.

mo reb

Used to play 3rd Reich before we found WiF. never touched it since.

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Post #: 4

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 4:26:08 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tactician93612

With that being said, this game while still in development is going to be one of the best boardgame to PC
transitions! I am at an awe with this venture. I would like to see it as a stepping stone for Advanced
Squad Leader to be ported on to the PC platform (yeah, I know.. don't hold my breath!). Here's to hopes
and prayer's none the less. =)

You need to check out Panzer Command. While it's not at the point of Squad Leader it's pretty good and moving in that direction.

I'm not a good person to talk to about doing straight boardgame conversions though. I want to see the old board games COMPUTER IMPROVED!

There are lots of things that computers can do that a board game can't and IMO they need to be upgraded to take advantage of the computers abilities.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 4:32:03 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

I am a complete noob when it comes to these monster games but, I do have a very limited understanding of A3R/ Empire of the Rising Sun/ World at war. Is WiF a better system for those that know both?

Is college a better institution of higher learning that kindergarten?

There is that much difference between Advanced 3rd Reich and World in Flames. Only that the two of them are grand strategy games do they compare. Otherwise there is more of everything in WiF.

quote:

In which areas does WiF excel?

Name the area and Wif excels at it.

quote:

In what other areas does it lack compared to A3R?

It lacks nothing compared to A3R.

quote:

One thing that I liked about A3R were the special rules regarding many of the neutral countries. Does WiF handle the various neutrals individually or there general rules regarding them?

Thanks in advance.

mo reb

Neutrals are handled both generically and specifically. Some have their own forces others do not. WiF is multitudes better than A3R in all aspects.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 4:49:31 AM

dryline_tx

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Mo_Reb: Don't listen to the WiF fanbois! I like WiF and plan on buying the computer version but to say that it is universally greater than A3R is just plain WRONG in many respects. (Disclaimer: I'm not completely versed with A3R or World at War but played 3R very extensively - and A3R is a modest improvement IMO). Two of the areas where 3R excels is play balance and the armor exploitation rules - which are a thing of beauty if used correctly - especially on the Russian front. 3R is unmatched for representing the ebb and flow across the Steppe. Yes, people will endlessly rag on the 9 factor fleets and such...and there are some valid complaints...but it is still one of the best strategic games ever printed.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 6:22:44 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mconder

Mo_Reb: Don't listen to the WiF fanbois! I like WiF and plan on buying the computer version but to say that it is universally greater than A3R is just plain WRONG in many respects. (Disclaimer: I'm not completely versed with A3R or World at War but played 3R very extensively - and A3R is a modest improvement IMO). Two of the areas where 3R excels is play balance and the armor exploitation rules - which are a thing of beauty if used correctly - especially on the Russian front. 3R is unmatched for representing the ebb and flow across the Steppe. Yes, people will endlessly rag on the 9 factor fleets and such...and there are some valid complaints...but it is still one of the best strategic games ever printed.

Yeah, and the fact that you could attack Leningrad at 3:1 odds and lose your entire attacking force was great too. So was the representation of strategic bombing, the Pacific theater, naval combat at all levels,economic/resource allocation, building of units according to training and equipment schedules, varying combat values,...the list goes on. I played 3R A LOT. When WiF came out I've never opened the box again.

But then we all have our opinions. He asked for ours and I gave him mine. It's no more or less valid than yours.

The best yard stick between the two may be that I don't see a huge following of 3R players clamoring for 3R to be converted to the computer. Where is the computerized version of 3R?

That should tell you something.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/10/2009 6:24:11 AM >

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 2:54:11 PM

composer99

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If MWiF 1 is successful, Mad Russian, there will probably be an MWiF 2 - and a fair bit of idle and not-so-idle discussion on these fora has gone into how to take advantage of the power of computing to make changes to the game (beyond those enforced by the change to a universal single map scale). You may want to check some of those things out and come up with your own ideas on what could make WiF even better in its computer form.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 4:29:57 PM

brian brian

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WiF has an incredible ebb-and-flow across the Eastern Front at times. An extremely devastating Operation Bagration is quite possible in WiF as the Red Army rolls west, 20 hex-rows at once in Jul/Aug '44. Hope they invested in some MOTs to keep up.

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Post #: 10

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 5:13:59 PM

gravyhair

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To Mad Russian - the computerized version of 3R was out ten years ago. I played it do death with friends. It's still available.

But I agree that WiF is a better game overall. Avalanche's rework of 3R improved it dramatically, in my opinion, but WiF is better.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/10/2009 10:50:30 PM

Grotius

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quote:

Where is the computerized version of 3R?

What gravyhair said: It was published several years ago, much earlier than MWIF. I know -- I beta-tested it. It's a good game.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 2:06:07 AM

willycube

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I am confused by the last several posts, are you referring to Talon Softs 3rd Reich computer game? If you are we are at odds about the game. The graphics were alright the rules were the same as the board game but the AI stunk to high heaven, and when we all screamed at Talon Soft you know what their stupid answer was, oh well the computer game will help you learn the board game better, biggest waste of money I ever put out. If its another company you are referring to please advise me as to the company and where I can purchase 3rd Reich, thank you.

Willy

(in reply to Missouri Rebel)

Post #: 13

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 2:45:21 AM

Mike Dubost

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I have played a bit of WiF many years ago, but my experience with WiF: Final Edition is limited to solitare CWiF. I have only played A3R solitare, so my experiences may not be typical.

That being said, here are my impressions. I think that you wanted a bit more detail than "WiF is great", right? I personally prefer WiF, but there are some points that A3R did better, imho.

Nobody has made the points that I think are pluses for A3R: diplomacy and research.

WiF has nothing like the diplomatic tables, in the base game. If you add in Days of Decision (DoD) or Politics in Flames (PoiF), WiF at least equals A3R, but without them, politics are very limited. Both DoD and PoiF have been mentioned as possible follow-up releases, by the way. The great thing about these add-ons is that they include the rivalries between smaller powers. If you do something that Turkey likes, it annoys Greece as an example. This was one of the better feature of the A3R diplomatic tables.

The research is almost totally absent. The closest thing is building ahead. Each unit has an availabilty year, and you can build them early at increased cost.

This brings us to one of the points where WiF shines. Each unit has a different set of factors. No more 5 factor air units or (almost) every Panzer is a 4-6. There is significant varriation within a major power's force pool.

I am also a fan of gearing limits. You cannot have your factories build 1,000 planes in January and switch intstantly to making 1,000 tanks in March. Your capacity is dependent upon what you built last turn.

I also find that I like the oil-dependent units rule. It adds another layer of realism. You have to choose the destination for oil, your factories or your gas tanks.

(in reply to Missouri Rebel)

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 8:42:20 AM

Missouri Rebel

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Thanks for all the answers. I most certainly will be buying WiF as soon as it's released. I've been curious as to why WiF had a bigger following though and just wrote it off as it being more mainstream. If it is a system that works good and is intuitive, I might just have the game I have always been looking for.

As to a future for ASL on computer, that would really be the best. I got into that game a bit right when Hasbro was going under and bought every module for it (and duplicate copies still in shrink wrap) with the hopes of finding opponents within my group of friends. They quickly tired of the rule reading and quit their efforts after only a few infantry scenarios. Since then I have studied the rules in detail and have found that I really enjoy the system so I, for one, would greatly benefit from a computer adaptation of it.

But that is another day.

Mike touched on the things I did like about A3R. The diplomatic consequences of activities depended on the nation involved. Not just generic rules. I do remember the rules for research being very tough to understand however. Yet it is WiF that we are getting and I should start preparing myself for it.

BTW, I have copies of A3R and Empire of the Rising Sun in shrink wrap also. I might just have to sell my duplicates of these games one day. Not doing me any good really.

Thanks again,
Mo Reb

< Message edited by Missouri Rebel -- 4/11/2009 8:44:40 AM >

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 8:54:29 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mconder

Mo_Reb: Don't listen to the WiF fanbois! I like WiF and plan on buying the computer version but to say that it is universally greater than A3R is just plain WRONG in many respects. (Disclaimer: I'm not completely versed with A3R or World at War but played 3R very extensively - and A3R is a modest improvement IMO). Two of the areas where 3R excels is play balance and the armor exploitation rules - which are a thing of beauty if used correctly - especially on the Russian front. 3R is unmatched for representing the ebb and flow across the Steppe. Yes, people will endlessly rag on the 9 factor fleets and such...and there are some valid complaints...but it is still one of the best strategic games ever printed.

When you said "World at War", was that a typo? You were talking about World in Flames, or not?

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 9:02:09 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

Thanks for all the answers. I most certainly will be buying WiF as soon as it's released. I've been curious as to why WiF had a bigger following though and just wrote it off as it being more mainstream. If it is a system that works good and is intuitive, I might just have the game I have always been looking for.

WiF FE is released since 1996, you can buy it right now

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 10:10:28 AM

Missouri Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

When you said "World at War", was that a typo? You were talking about World in Flames, or not?

No. He means A World At War which is a game that incorporates more clearly the rules from A3R and EotRS into a full global campaign and expands on the original.

Boardgame Geek

GMT page

mo reb

Edit: Got me there Froonp (how do you pronounce that again?). I mean MWIF, not just another box collecting dust.

< Message edited by Missouri Rebel -- 4/11/2009 10:34:04 AM >

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 12:27:07 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel
No. He means A World At War which is a game that incorporates more clearly the rules from A3R and EotRS into a full global campaign and expands on the original.

Matrix is supposedly going to develop a computer version of Harper's A World at War at some point. Something I mentioned before the Matrix site crashed a few years back is that the guy who did the fabulous box art for WiF (Rodger MacGowan) also helped develop AWaW, both art and game mechanics.

As far as comparing the two games, some prefer the shorter play time of A3R, and by extension, AWaW, with seasonal turns, whereas I am among those who like the unpredictability of the impulse system of WiF.

< Message edited by coregames -- 4/11/2009 11:37:02 PM >

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 4:02:44 PM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel
No. He means A World At War which is a game that incorporates more clearly the rules from A3R and EotRS into a full global campaign and expands on the original.

Matrix is supposedly going to develop a computer version of Harper's A World at War at some point. Something I mentioned before the Matrix site crashed a few years back is that the guy who did the fabulous box art for WiF (Rodger MacGowan) also helped develop AWaW, both art and game mechanics.

As far as comparing the two games, some prefer the shorter play time of A3R, and by extension, AWaW, with monthly turns, whereas I am among those who like the unpredictability of the impulse system of WiF.

I thought I saw that this project was cancelled 2 or 3 years ago. I could be wrong.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 4:59:52 PM

yesman68

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Actually, Mad Russian, I have the computer version of 3R published in '96 by Avalon Hill and still enjoy playing it (in the absence of people to play A3R, the boardgame).

Am I to understand there is no armor exploitation in WiF?

I've never opted to buy WiF because I don't have room to set the thing up. There is such a thing as being to big.

Having said that, I will be purchasing CWiF. I'm a sucker for grand strategic scale games!!

Dan

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 8:20:17 PM

willycube

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I asked a simple question a few replys back about is there another computer version of 3rd Reich other than the horrible inept game that Talon soft put out? Pease advise somebody.

Willy

(in reply to Missouri Rebel)

Post #: 22

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 8:40:12 PM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I asked a simple question a few replys back about is there another computer version of 3rd Reich other than the horrible inept game that Talon soft put out? Pease advise somebody.

Willy

Avalon Hill came out with a computer version of 3R in the 90's (3RPC). Alas funding and/or resources for bug fixes was ended...way...to soon. I was one of the beta testers and was sad that a game I truely love died. Avalon Hill was sold a couple of years later. Since work had stopped on 3RPC it really didn't matter. That is life.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 9:06:49 PM

HansHafen

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Simple answer; Talonsoft never made a 3rd Reich computer game based on a boardgame. They published Against the Reich, but it was not based on a boardgame. It was an expansion of the EastFront series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalonSoft. http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025655.html

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 11:33:53 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I thought I saw that this project was cancelled 2 or 3 years ago. I could be wrong.

Given how the two products, MWiF and MaWaW, might step on eachother's toes a bit, that wouldn't surprise me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Avalon Hill was sold a couple of years later.

Interesting line of acquisition: AH > TSR > WoC > Hasbro.
Does Hasbro, GMT or Bruce Harper now own the A3R franchise? I just visited the GMT site and it's still up; Harper and GMT own AWAW at least, but does that include A3R and ERS?

< Message edited by coregames -- 4/11/2009 11:52:18 PM >

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 11:43:01 PM

willycube

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

Simple answer; Talonsoft never made a 3rd Reich computer game based on a boardgame. They published Against the Reich, but it was not based on a boardgame. It was an expansion of the EastFront series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalonSoft. http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025655.html

What are you talking about I own the game and it was exactly like the board game which I still have why would you say something like that geez!

Willy

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/11/2009 11:43:25 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yesman68
Am I to understand there is no armor exploitation in WiF?

When the attacker has the advantage in armor, he or she can choose the blitzkrieg combat table, in which case armor, mechanized and to a lesser degree, motorized units, can breakthrough one hex past the target hex if you roll high enough. Over the course of a long turn, repeated breakthroughs can isolate a lot of units, so I would say WiF offers plenty of armor exploitation.

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Post #: 27

RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/12/2009 2:58:09 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

quote:

ORIGINAL: yesman68
Am I to understand there is no armor exploitation in WiF?

When the attacker has the advantage in armor, he or she can choose the blitzkrieg combat table, in which case armor, mechanized and to a lesser degree, motorized units, can breakthrough one hex past the target hex if you roll high enough. Over the course of a long turn, repeated breakthroughs can isolate a lot of units, so I would say WiF offers plenty of armor exploitation.

All of that is correct. However, the scale of WIF is 90 KM per hex so you shouldn't think of armor exploitation as being at a 'tactical' level.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/12/2009 10:30:38 PM

gravyhair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

Simple answer; Talonsoft never made a 3rd Reich computer game based on a boardgame. They published Against the Reich, but it was not based on a boardgame. It was an expansion of the EastFront series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalonSoft. http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025655.html

HansHafen is confusing TalonSoft's "Against The Reich" expansion to the Campaign Series with the PC Third Reich, which is a whole different game. The latter is a direct port of the 3R boardgame, right down to hexes and counters. That's the one we're talking about.

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RE: Advanced Third Reich/ World at War - 4/12/2009 10:55:30 PM

Grotius

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Yes, Third Reich PC was published in 1996 by Avalon Hill. I guess I'm one of the few who liked it. I beta-tested it and played it even after the beta-test ended, which is unusual for me. Yes, the AI was weak, but I imposed house rules on myself to make the game more even -- something I do for every computer wargame. Another rap on the game is that it was *too* faithful to the boardgame, and didn't take advantage of the computer to streamline things. For me, that was a plus.

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