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Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 3:32:23 PM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

I've been loosely following the development of WiF for a few years now, wondering if it ever actually would make it to the PC (in saying that, I don't want to take away from the staggeringly epic job it must be). I've been a long time fan of WW2 games but all the games I've owned have left me with one criticism of them, namely being, it just wasn't "epic" enough.

By this I mean, we're talking about the most horrendous, all-encompassing war in all of human history. I'm the sort of gamer who thinks that should probably take more than a couple of hours to play out from start to finish.

Anyone remember SSI's old games for the Apple? Operation Market Garden for example? I'm hoping WiF will be like that, but expanded to include the whole world...lol.

So, my questions (if anyone is interesting in replying to a new member... hehe)

1. I'm a very experienced war gamer (20+ years), but no experience with WiF - will this be a problem?

2. Will WiF be as epic as some of you make it sound? I'm looking for a WW2 game that would take a HUGE length of time to play the entire war out on, not something (a la Strategic Command, Europe At War etc etc etc) that can be done in a few hours. Seriously, if it took me a year to play out a single '39-'45 game, I'd be happy as.

3. Will it be realistic enough that the Axis powers will be ultimately doomed (as they were), but moddable enough for me to craft a scenario to make for "a fair fight" where the Axis powers could actually win? (As much as anything else, a sheer manpower problem).

4. Will the AI be able to stand up to this challenge, if the game is as complex as it sounds? (finding human opponents isn't really an option for me)

5. Will the game model macro-choices as well as micro ones? By this I mean, not merely combat on a scale of "do I send these tank units this way or that way" (which I want), but also "do I contest the Atlantic with a huge sub building program, or give it up and divert more resources to the East?".

6. Will Air and Naval power figure as prominently as they should? I find this is often an overlooked area of the current range of "lighter" WW2 hex based games, particularly with regards to the strategic bombing campaigns employed against Germany and Japan.

7. Is the July 09 timeline looking firm?

8. Are people confident that too much micro-management can be avoided in a game of such scale?

Suffice to say, that after years (decades) spent wondering about "when will I get a truly all-encompassing, hex-based, WW2 game" if WiF is going to be what I hope it will be, then it's publisher/producer will get one unit purchase out of me that would (and I probably shouldn't say this...lol) completely ignore whatever pricetag they chose to put on it.

Post #: 1

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 3:44:13 PM

Edfactor

Posts: 106
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Well it's a computer game so that will take care of alot of rules problems. Learning should be as easy or easier then the board game.

Its sure is epic, it covers the whole world except for the arctic areas.

In WiF it's not quite realistic enough - Germanys production seems a bit high, or maybe the US is too low. But its an excelent game.

AI, i cant comment on except its the thing i most want from the game.

Combat is Corp level - so there is no tactical level

There are plenty of naval and air units, airpower is the key to successful ground and naval operations.

I cant comment on the timetable, I like Blizzards theory on the release date of games. It will be ready when its ready.

I don't think there will be too much micro-management

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 2

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 3:52:56 PM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

One thing I was a little surprised to learn was the length of each turn being 2 months, meaning 39-45 would be covered in something like 36 turns? Are there multiple impulse turns within each "turn" as it were?

PS: I'll also of course, be looking further into the forums as I now track this game much more closely.

(in reply to Edfactor)

Post #: 3

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 4:03:13 PM

gravyhair

Posts: 164
Joined: 3/15/2003
Status: offline

Yes, there are multiple impulses during a turn, and the number of impulses is variable. This is one of the most exciting "gameplay" aspects of WiF. You're never quite sure when the turn is going to end, so you are always trying to maximize the use of your forces versus the capabilities of your forces. A nice engine in this regard.

_____________________________

Wise Men Still Seek Him

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 4

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 5:48:56 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

One thing I was a little surprised to learn was the length of each turn being 2 months, meaning 39-45 would be covered in something like 36 turns? Are there multiple impulse turns within each "turn" as it were?

PS: I'll also of course, be looking further into the forums as I now track this game much more closely.

Each turn is divided into several impulses. In each impulse one side moves and attacks. You can't be sure of how many impulses there is in any given turn. The nicer the weather is in Europe the more impulses there is in a turn. In a summer turn you can expect to move and attack around 5 times. The more impulses there has already been in the turn the more likely it is that it is the last impulse of the turn.

You build units and you can conquer countries once each turn. You get reinforcements once each turn as well.

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 5

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 6:43:01 PM

willycube

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

I sure Hope it is the game you wanted it to be Hawkeye for if it is anything like you want then we will all be very very happy, I have been attracted to war games all my life, also when I was 20 years old I joined the 101st airborne for excitment [dumb dumb dumb] and to serve my country [good good good]. When first person multiplayer shooter cod2 came along I wanted to play it to get the feeling what it must have been like to jump into occupied France in the middle of the night when you were between the ages of 18 to 25, I jumped into the night but nobody was shooting at me so not nearly the same thing. But alas we have people as young as 7 or 8 years old who can do somersaults aim fire reload move side ways avoid bullets and shoot you in the same motion, very realistic HUH! So please Steve and Matrix and all the great programers here save me from these horrible little creatures that play cod2. The key for me will how the AI reacts to the game play, it has to be a monumental job for the programers, in chess you have 64 squares to work with so thats why some chess games are almost unbeatable, these gentlemen here have to deal with thousands of hexes and many more situations than in a chess game, I like solo play because I want to play when I want, not be sitting around waiting for a friend to be ready, someday someone will discover how to make the computer think like a good game player, anything is possible look what has happened in the last 10 years with graphics and AI improvement, so I hope you get the game you want because if you do all the very fine posters here will be very happy.

Willy

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 6

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 6:55:49 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline

I am not involved in this project, just a mere fan, here some quick answers, others may correct me if I am wrong. My answers are more about WiF the board game, but MWiF is based on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

So, my questions (if anyone is interesting in replying to a new member... hehe)

1. I'm a very experienced war gamer (20+ years), but no experience with WiF - will this be a problem?

You are a veteran so you should be fine.

quote:

2. Will WiF be as epic as some of you make it sound? I'm looking for a WW2 game that would take a HUGE length of time to play the entire war out on, not something (a la Strategic Command, Europe At War etc etc etc) that can be done in a few hours. Seriously, if it took me a year to play out a single '39-'45 game, I'd be happy as.

No it's not something like Strategic Command or Gary Gitby's. We played a campaign 4 maps, both Pacific & European theaters took 2 years.

quote:

3. Will it be realistic enough that the Axis powers will be ultimately doomed (as they were), but moddable enough for me to craft a scenario to make for "a fair fight" where the Axis powers could actually win? (As much as anything else, a sheer manpower problem).

Axis can win or loose.

quote:

5. Will the game model macro-choices as well as micro ones? By this I mean, not merely combat on a scale of "do I send these tank units this way or that way" (which I want), but also "do I contest the Atlantic with a huge sub building program, or give it up and divert more resources to the East?".

You can do a strategy who focus on a lot of submarines construction and can also do a strategy "Japan first" by sending more units in the Pacific theater rather than Europe, escecially when playing USA.

quote:

6. Will Air and Naval power figure as prominently as they should? I find this is often an overlooked area of the current range of "lighter" WW2 hex based games, particularly with regards to the strategic bombing campaigns employed against Germany and Japan.

Air power is more than adequately represented, escecially with the PiF, Planes in Flames addon. A Strategic bombing campaign is really feasible for Western Allies, doable on the early years of war for Axis. Naval powers are important also, you have convoys, subs, carriers, battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, transports, amphibious transports.

quote:

7. Is the July 09 timeline looking firm?

Look at the thread "When?".

< Message edited by micheljq -- 4/20/2009 7:00:14 PM >

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 7

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/20/2009 7:19:54 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

I've been loosely following the development of WiF for a few years now, wondering if it ever actually would make it to the PC (in saying that, I don't want to take away from the staggeringly epic job it must be). I've been a long time fan of WW2 games but all the games I've owned have left me with one criticism of them, namely being, it just wasn't "epic" enough.

By this I mean, we're talking about the most horrendous, all-encompassing war in all of human history. I'm the sort of gamer who thinks that should probably take more than a couple of hours to play out from start to finish.

Anyone remember SSI's old games for the Apple? Operation Market Garden for example? I'm hoping WiF will be like that, but expanded to include the whole world...lol.

So, my questions (if anyone is interesting in replying to a new member... hehe)

1. I'm a very experienced war gamer (20+ years), but no experience with WiF - will this be a problem?

2. Will WiF be as epic as some of you make it sound? I'm looking for a WW2 game that would take a HUGE length of time to play the entire war out on, not something (a la Strategic Command, Europe At War etc etc etc) that can be done in a few hours. Seriously, if it took me a year to play out a single '39-'45 game, I'd be happy as.

3. Will it be realistic enough that the Axis powers will be ultimately doomed (as they were), but moddable enough for me to craft a scenario to make for "a fair fight" where the Axis powers could actually win? (As much as anything else, a sheer manpower problem).

4. Will the AI be able to stand up to this challenge, if the game is as complex as it sounds? (finding human opponents isn't really an option for me)

5. Will the game model macro-choices as well as micro ones? By this I mean, not merely combat on a scale of "do I send these tank units this way or that way" (which I want), but also "do I contest the Atlantic with a huge sub building program, or give it up and divert more resources to the East?".

6. Will Air and Naval power figure as prominently as they should? I find this is often an overlooked area of the current range of "lighter" WW2 hex based games, particularly with regards to the strategic bombing campaigns employed against Germany and Japan.

7. Is the July 09 timeline looking firm?

8. Are people confident that too much micro-management can be avoided in a game of such scale?

Suffice to say, that after years (decades) spent wondering about "when will I get a truly all-encompassing, hex-based, WW2 game" if WiF is going to be what I hope it will be, then it's publisher/producer will get one unit purchase out of me that would (and I probably shouldn't say this...lol) completely ignore whatever pricetag they chose to put on it.

I'll let others answer your questions specifically, but here is something I wrote before I even signed a contract with Matrix to do the development. This was so I could "get my thoughts straight" as to what the AI Oopponent needed to do. Since I reread it every month or so, I thought it might provide you with a reasonable perspective on WIF.
===
I. Background
1.1 MWIF Objectives
World in Flames is a game of conquest where the winner is determined based on victory hexes held at the end of the game. Indeed, the game ends early if one side controls a sufficient number of victory hexes. Since control of a hex is only achieved by having land units either traverse the hex or occupy the country�s capital, land units determine who wins.

1.2 Land Units
There are dozens of types of land units and they can be corps or division size. In order for land units to attack outside of their home country, they need to be able to trace a supply line back to a supply source, either in their home country or an occupied country. To do that, they need to be near a headquarters unit which can trace supply back to a primary or secondary supply source using rail lines. Because the only way to take enemy held victory cities and enemy capitals is by attacking in foreign lands, these lines of communication are crucial for making progress.

1.3 Naval Units
If the enemy is overseas, then supply/communication lines need to extend overseas. This is done by having convoys in contiguous sea areas stretching from the overseas location to the home supply source. To keep overseas units in supply, there must be at least one convoy per sea area, thereby forming a convoy pipeline. The convoys are extremely vulnerable to attack, so naval units are used to defend friendly and attack enemy convoy pipelines. If all supply lines could be land based, then the naval units would have very little value. This is why historically Germany and the USSR fought such a prolonged and bloody conflict with virtually no naval units involved.

1.4 Air Units
Air units enable a player to provide additional striking power at the point of attack. This can be done when attacking or defending, on land and at sea. Air units also have a limited ability to transport land units and supply. One unique role they perform is to attack enemy production through strategic bombing. In general though, air units are augmentations to land and naval forces, which respectively perform the primary tasks of taking territory and providing supply.

1.5 Transportation Lines
In addition to the rail lines and convoy pipelines providing supply, these same 2 transportation lines are used to transport resources to factories and reinforcements to the frontlines. The mechanism is so similar to those for maintaining supply, that for most purposes they can be thought of as the same. What has to be kept in mind is that the importance of the rail lines and convoy pipelines is multiple: (1) to provide supply, (2) to send reinforcements to the frontlines, and (3) to send resources to factories.

1.6 Production
Once resources have been delivered to a factory, production points are produced. Depending on the intensity of the war effort, production points are converted into a number of build points. Build points are used to create new land, naval, and air units. They can also be used for repairing naval units, generating supply depots, and creating new factories. Being unable to generate a substantial number of build points each turn means that a country is unable to replace losses to its army, navy, air force, and merchant marine, and eventually it is doomed to defeat.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 8

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 3:03:56 AM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

Thank you all for your replies, quite detailed they were too which I especially appreciate. In particular thanks Steve for giving me an insight to the design considerations behind the game.

This is sounding more and more like the truly epic, strategic game I've been looking forward to for so many years, one that will really reward clever strategies thought out and planned for in advance.

I'd imagine the biggest hurdle will be building a challenging AI, and I hope this goes well.

I'll keep going through the forums to hopefully try and avoid asking any more duplicated questions (as I'm sure some of mine were), and eagerly await the release of this long-sought-after "true WW2" game.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 9

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 4:33:37 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

This is sounding more and more like the truly epic, strategic game

This is the one.

quote:

I've been looking forward to for so many years, one that will really reward clever strategies thought out and planned for in advance.

It will do all that.

quote:

I'd imagine the biggest hurdle will be building a challenging AI, and I hope this goes well.

The AI part of the game will be tough but the way to play World in Flames is against human players. There is nothing like that experience in grand strategy wargaming.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 10

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 6:02:15 AM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The AI part of the game will be tough but the way to play World in Flames is against human players. There is nothing like that experience in grand strategy wargaming.

Good Hunting.

MR

Unfortunately for me, my own erratic time-schedule, and lack of friends in the near area who share my love of wargaming means that I've never played more than a handful of games against human opponents, and almost certainly won't ever get to play this particular game against one either.

I can only imagine, a little enviously, how much more interesting it would be play a game of this sans PC, with all the maps and counters laid out, and individual players for each major nation in the world.

Hopefully the AI can provide at least a reasonable opponent, even if it never really approximates the real thing (setting difficulty settings against me slightly is one way I've found to compensate (crudely) for limited AI).

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 11

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 6:36:24 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The AI part of the game will be tough but the way to play World in Flames is against human players. There is nothing like that experience in grand strategy wargaming.

Good Hunting.

MR

Unfortunately for me, my own erratic time-schedule, and lack of friends in the near area who share my love of wargaming means that I've never played more than a handful of games against human opponents, and almost certainly won't ever get to play this particular game against one either.

I can only imagine, a little enviously, how much more interesting it would be play a game of this sans PC, with all the maps and counters laid out, and individual players for each major nation in the world.

Hopefully the AI can provide at least a reasonable opponent, even if it never really approximates the real thing (setting difficulty settings against me slightly is one way I've found to compensate (crudely) for limited AI).

If the game is playable as PBEM or even netplay, there should be no trouble finding opponents. An erratic time schedule would likely mean doing games PBEM and that facility is going to be in the game.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 12

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 6:52:53 AM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

If the game is playable as PBEM or even netplay, there should be no trouble finding opponents. An erratic time schedule would likely mean doing games PBEM and that facility is going to be in the game.

I normally don't go for PBEM, but for a game of this calibre, it's something I'd seriously consider.

I wonder, if MPBEM will be available? (ie/ 6 people in a single game progressing via Email).

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 13

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 9:53:16 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OzHawkeye

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

If the game is playable as PBEM or even netplay, there should be no trouble finding opponents. An erratic time schedule would likely mean doing games PBEM and that facility is going to be in the game.

I normally don't go for PBEM, but for a game of this calibre, it's something I'd seriously consider.

I wonder, if MPBEM will be available? (ie/ 6 people in a single game progressing via Email).

For the first release, only two players for PBEM will be possible (one Axis, one Allied).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to OzHawkeye2)

Post #: 14

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/21/2009 3:32:51 PM

OzHawkeye2

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/13/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For the first release, only two players for PBEM will be possible (one Axis, one Allied).

The expected, and entirely understandable answer. MP-PBEM would drag a game out to something like the real time the actual war took I guess with 6 players involved. It would be such a rarely used option that it wouldn't make sense for an initial release anyway I'd think, or indeed any release perhaps.

Neither its absence nor its inclusion would amend my buying decision, which of course will be (i) the first moment this game becomes available and (ii) frankly regardless of the pricetag attached to it (ok, maybe getting into the latest Harpoons four-figure pricetag might give me pause...lol)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 15

RE: Is this the game I hope it is? - 4/24/2009 8:49:58 PM

obermeister

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline

Playing once every two weeks, with a group of mixed experience, it's taken us four months to get to May/June 1940. Trust me, this game is epic! As one of my buddies put it, most wargames pick air, naval, or land to do a detailed simulation of, and then abstract the rest. This game uses a significantly different set of game mechanics used to model each. Even minor countries get a specific set of units, unlike other game, say third reich, that give you "generics" for them. With the addition of the unit add-ons like cruisers in flames, you have ever surface warship CL and bigger with its own counter. You'll find that you'll need a spreadsheet to manage your gearing ratios and build points as well, at least I use one.

I imagine MWiF will be faster than the cardboard variety, since even experienced players in our game will argue about rules (which are written in a conversational style and in Australian English and so therefore are an endless source of argument at our table as to their exact meaning). You can't really argue with the computer.