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Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 12:28:12 AM   
Anthropoid


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One of the things that surprises me about this game is the low density of troops per map. Not saying that I think it is unrealistic; I don't really know about such things for certain. But it did surprise me. I would've thought there would have been more troops per square kilometer than what is presented in the game.

It looks to me like most maps are in the 400 x 900 m ballpark, right?

At first it seemed like a lot of space for only 3 platoons (one small company right?), but then I did the math to think of it in feet and miles (I am a scientist and can certainly do metric just fine, but feet/miles is just more intuitive.

400 x 900 meters is about 1312.4 x 2952.8 feet or 3,875,008 square feet. That is 0.14 square miles, or about 88 acres.

It seems like most of these 3 platoon sets of "lead elements" work out be between 50 and 70 soldiers. Using 65 soldiers per "lead element" that comes to about 467 soldiers per square mile.

When I think of it in terms of 467/square mile then it seems like a fairly dense number of soldiers, but when I look at the maps it seems sparse.

Are these highly realistic numbers or are they slightly fudged for game play purposes?

What was the rationale to always set the number in the lead element to three platoons? Why not have some random factors that allow an extra few squads or even platoons in some battles, or else restrict it to fewer in some instances?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3
Post #: 1
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 1:54:28 AM   
Andrew Williams


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There is probably too many soldiers in CC battles compared to historical density.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 2
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 2:48:03 AM   
Anthropoid


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Interesting. So are the areas shown in the strategic map sections meant to be more or less fully conveyed in the battle maps? Or are the battle maps sort of the "central" active areas of each strategic map section?

I'm guessing the former since the roads and buildings and forests you can see on the strategic maps sections more or less correspond to the battle maps.

Reason I ask is, I find it very interesting to compare different games, and I often wonder which ones are striking a more realistic balance in scaling units to geography. The game I've played the most over the years is Civ, but I've grown very tired of it. One of the primary reasons being its utter lack of anything like realistic scaling.

I tend to believe that you guys are closer to reality than many games which seem to have even higher densities represented, in large part because of what I can now appreciate a bit more from playing your game: with modern weapons, a single gun or squad or even one soldier can cause a whole lot of enemy soldiers a lot of problems for a long way out in front of its zone of control. Given that, and the way artillery works, it would not make much sense to crowd lots of troops into a small space, something which I think a lot of games do.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 3
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 2:59:23 AM   
Andrew Williams


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Most of the maps were drawn using overhead photos as a guide.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 4
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 3:02:28 AM   
Andrew Williams


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Many other sims have ten Tanks shooting at each other from 10 - 20 metres, you watch as their health slowly drops.


rubbish

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Post #: 5
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 3:36:02 AM   
Southernland


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Yeah a lot of the original cc4 maps were considerably smaller than ours.  When taking into account the setup deployment zones there wasn't a hell of a lot of space left.  I've always believed where CC excells is as a game of manourvere, if your map only allows a shooting gallery you're loosing one of the vital aspects of close combat

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 6
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 11:53:06 AM   
Anthropoid


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I really find this whole topic very fascinating: how many soldiers per geographic area, or per enemy solider, or civilian in an area you are invading "does it take" to win. As I said previously, one of the realizations that this game with its brilliant LOS and range and cover simulation affords is that 'more is not necessarily better.' In fact, I first encountered this concept in TOAWIII which uses the more traditional hex-chit style, but represents the cost of excessive density by simply increasing the vulnerbility of units in a hex to enemy fire the more you stack in there. I have to admit I was a bit skeptical of that until playing this game, but now it TOTALLY makes sense: all else being equal (range, cover, accuracy, number of enemies, formation) if you increase your density of troops in a given area, you will increase their vulnerability of fire so that even frontal fire becomes more like enfilading fire!

So I got to looking this morning and found this pretty neat analysis of troop densities vis a vis the question of "was there 'not enough' troops deployed in Iraq to begin with?"

He looks at five different successful U.S./Ango conflicts over the last 100 years: Phillipines, Post-War Germany, British Malayan counter-Communist, Post-War Japan, and Bosnia/Kosovo.

With respect to PH he says

quote:


As can be seen from table 2, US soldiers were spread thin throughout the archipelago, averaging slightly more than one soldier for every two square miles of territory, and 1 soldier for a little over 100 Filipino


But notes that the overall density in the archipelago was highly heterogeneous

quote:

northern Luzon area, where the troop density averaged more than 1.5 soldiers per two square miles and about 10 soldiers per 1000 residents.


Not enough time to pour over this in detail, but thought you guys might like it.

In conclusion on PH he says

quote:

While operating with minimal indigenous support over a period of less than three years, American forces subdued insurrection in the Philippines
by employing an area troop density of 0.59 soldiers per square mile throughout the archipelago and a population troop density of 9.8 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants. In the sections of Luzon where insurgent activity was most intense, US forces were more concentrated, and the troop density ratio for the area equated to 0.83 soldiers per square mile and a population to troop density ratio of 12.5 soldiers per 1000 Northern
Luzon inhabitants.


For post war Germany he doesn't really mention geographic density in his conclusion (and not enough time to scour it for that info)

quote:

Initial occupation planning estimates for one year following the German
surrender projected a force of 21.28 soldiers per 1000 German inhabitants.
The large army-type occupation plan was never fully implemented due to the adoption and implementation of the smaller, police-type occupation
plan. At its maximum, the total force size of the police-type occupation
was projected to be 203,000, or a ratio of 10.68 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants, roughly half the size of the army-type occupation. At the heart of the police-type occupation was the US Constabulary, whose projected strength of 38,000 was based on a rough estimate of 1 soldier-policeman per 450 German residents, a ratio that would deploy 2.2 troopers per 1000 residents.


For post-war Japan . . .

quote:

When considering the population of Japan, the occupation there was the largest ever executed by the military forces of the United States and the largest such operation analyzed in this work. However, despite the large Japanese population, the troop density was proportionally the lowest of any of the operations examined.


For British counter-Communist insurgency operations in Malaya

quote:

The British operated in Malaya with extensive indigenous support and executed counterinsurgency operations for 12 years, defeating the communist insurgency while granting Malaya independence. The period from 1952-54 was the most decisive for British operations in Malaya. It was at this time that a unified, systematic approach to counterinsurgency operations broke the back of the insurgency.
For military forces, at the maximum, the British employed an area troop density of 0.59 soldiers per square mile throughout the country and a population troop density of 6.18 soldiers for every 1000 Malayan inhabitants
(or 1 soldier per every 161.9 inhabitants). While the insurgency existed nationwide, most counterinsurgency operations were conducted in remote, underpopulated areas, and, over time, indigenous forces became available to provide local security for the populated areas.


And the Balkans he concludes

quote:

Balkans Conclusion
The two peacekeeping missions in the Balkans share certain characteristics.
The concept of multinational place-keeper organizations where a unit has responsibility for a specific, geographical area of responsibility
and through which a series of units rotate over time was developed in Bosnia and applied on a smaller scale in Kosovo. In both cases, indigenous
support was practically nonexistent at the beginning of the mission, requiring the deployment of large forces in proportion to the population and area. In Bosnia NATO deployed a maximum area troop density of three soldiers per square mile, while in the more compact Kosovo, there were 10 soldiers per square mile. Clearly, however, the deployment size of the force was determined based primarily on demographics rather than geography. The force deployed to Bosnia at its maximum had a population troop density of 15 soldiers for every 1000 inhabitants (or 1 soldier for every
67 inhabitants). The ratio in Kosovo, with a population density almost two and a half times higher than that of Bosnia, was 21.13 soldiers per 1000 residents (or 48 residents per soldier). Table 6 displays the density statistics for the Balkans’ deployments.


< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 4/23/2009 2:02:30 PM >


_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Southernland)
Post #: 7
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 12:24:36 PM   
Anthropoid


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So that deals with occupation/counter-insurgency forces primarily--as opposed to the specific combat forces in CC--but to summarize briefly (and without having printed this out and really carefully gone over it . . . some of his table row and column labels seem to be wrong?)

Conflict Soldier/Mile^2 Soldier/1000 Inhabitants
PH------------0.83-------------------12.5
PW Germ----6.56--------------------2.2
PW Jap-------2.48--------------------4.92
Bri Malay-----0.59-------------------6.18
Bosnia--------3------------------------15
Kosovo--------10---------------------21.13

As compared to my estimate of soldiers represented in CC WaR in an actual combat situation
CCWaR-------467-------------------???

So yeah, based on this somewhat incomparable analysis of occupation/counter-insurgency forces it does look like the troop densities in the game are actually a bit high! Amazing how counter-intuitive that is!

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 4/23/2009 12:27:52 PM >


_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 8
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 1:01:55 PM   
Q.M


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Sorry man.  I just enjoy playing the entire series, but how good is it to see someone else so enthusiastic about the game?  Good for you Anthropoid.  You got the bug.
I still get excited starting a game after all these 12 years!
More exciting is what anyone can envisage as to what the future could hold for the advancement of the game is!


Edit: Spelling

< Message edited by Q.M -- 4/23/2009 1:02:22 PM >

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 9
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 10:59:56 PM   
Senior Drill


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Anthropoid, the facts and figures you are quoting do not mean that combat actions are fought at those densities, let alone are garrisons meeted out like that. The warfighting principle of concentration means you put hundreds of soldiers into certain areas and deny others.

A case in point is the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest. Through the campaign, over 200,000 German (80,000) and American (120,000) forces fought in a forest that is less than 50 square miles in area. That would be a density of 4,000 soldiers per square mile! But even that figure is misleading because there were times that patches of the area here or there were not occupied by anything other than very scared boars and birds. The 200,000 figure itself is misleading. Modern day distributions would say that only 1 in 10 were infantrymen, but that may not have been the case there. WWII ratios may have been as high as 3 in 10 for front line units with the rest being tankers, artillery, supply, transportation, medical and whatnots. I don't know, nor do I care. The battle had a darn sight more men per acre than your figures would suggest, many of them PBI's.

The Normandy Invasion is another example that shows that density figures are meaningless in the short term. The airborne drops on the Cotentin Peninsula on the night of December 6th developed a very thin density if looked at in terms of the entire area. But, indeed, concetrations were co-located and further concentrations of combat forces were made to make attacks not just in squad and platoon level strengths, but in company and battalion level strengths by the end of the third day.

Try working out the density of US troops in the state of Texas. Pretty lean. Then conduct an action againt the 4th Infantry Division and see what kind density you get in your area of operations.

Quit being a bean counter. Put your calculator back in your rucksack, pick up your mouse and get back into the fight!

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Q.M)
Post #: 10
RE: Question about Scale - 4/23/2009 11:29:39 PM   
Anthropoid


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Thanks Senior Drill! Yeah, I kinda figured that the actual combat densities were not very strongly related to these gross national /annual kinds of models. Anyway fascinating stuff, and beans are FUN to count!

So on the drive to work today, I was using my tripometer to sort of get a sense for the size of one of these maps (400 x 900 meters is about 1312.4 x 2952.8 feet or almost 0.2 x 0.5 miles on my tripometer).

On my drive in, I have about 3 miles or rural road, then I'm in kinda semi-urban (small town) city blocks for about 7 or 8 blocks. I was kinda surprised to realize that many of the blocks I cross are about 0.2 miles long.

When I look at these maps I think of them intuitively as being considerably larger than ~one long city block tall and two long city blocks wide, but it seems that is roughly what it is.

So how many games are there in this CC series after all? Are all of them as good as this one?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Senior Drill)
Post #: 11
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 12:23:23 AM   
Tejszd

 

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The original Atomic games for the public were:
CC1: Close Combat
CC2: A Bridge Too Far
CC3: The Russian Front
CC4: Battle of the Bulge
CC5: Invasion Normandy

The original Atomic games for the military:
CCM: Close Combat Marines
CCMAT: Close Combat Marines Anti Terrorism (was this Atomic & Simtek or just Simtek?)

Matrix has re-released:
CC3 as Close Combat Cross of Iron – a new campaign and graphics with minor code changes
CCM as Close Combat Modern Tactics – new graphics with minor code changes. Single battles only, but good for multiplayer including more than H2H
CC4 as Close Combat Wacht am Rhein – substantial enhancements and fixes over the original

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 4/24/2009 12:24:26 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 1:32:17 AM   
Senior Drill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Thanks Senior Drill! Yeah, I kinda figured that the actual combat densities were not very strongly related to these gross national /annual kinds of models. Anyway fascinating stuff, and beans are FUN to count!


That's reassuring! LOL!

quote:

So on the drive to work today, I was using my tripometer to sort of get a sense for the size of one of these maps (400 x 900 meters is about 1312.4 x 2952.8 feet or almost 0.2 x 0.5 miles on my tripometer).

On my drive in, I have about 3 miles or rural road, then I'm in kinda semi-urban (small town) city blocks for about 7 or 8 blocks. I was kinda surprised to realize that many of the blocks I cross are about 0.2 miles long.

When I look at these maps I think of them intuitively as being considerably larger than ~one long city block tall and two long city blocks wide, but it seems that is roughly what it is.


You do seem fascinated by numbers. Now the challenge: On that next drive look for possible AT positions, MG positions, masked areas for infantry movement. Where are the positions on your advance that have long LOS, where would smoke mask a road crossing? Remember to watch the road as you drive.

quote:

So how many games are there in this CC series after all? Are all of them as good as this one?


Are all of them as good? A very loaded question, mate. Probably as many opinions on that as there are owners/players. Many hold that CC2 was the best because of the AI, but it lacks many of the features of units available in later versions. Some like the point based campaign system of CC3, others the strategic movement in CC4 and CC5. The debate has kept many other forums than this one alive for years.

In all there are:

Close Combat - Sometimes refered to as CC1. A great game that looked blockish and clunky by 1998. Still played by diehards, difficult (but possible) to enable in XP. Don't know if Vista compatable, but might be with emulation apps. Few know of it today and fewer still play it.

Close Combat Two - A Bridge Too Far. Some swear that it is the classic CC with the best AI. Harsh graphics but a wealth of campaign possibilities with many strategy options.

Close Combat Three - The Russian Front. Larger maps on a linear 1941 to 1945 campaign with a point based requisition system. Some say this was the best. Many mods were created for this game.

Close Combat Four - Battle of the Bulge. Some larger maps. The requisition system replaced with a force pool and adds a strategic movement layer to shift battle groups within the focus of the campaign. Lack of the ability of modify battle groups left CC4 lacking in most player's opinion, but there are still some diehards that think it the best. Barely modded due to CC5's debut mearly 10 months later.

Close Combat Five - Normandy Invasion. Expanded from CC4 with more options. More modded than CC3 with many more, larger maps. Some say this is the best.

Close Combat Road to Baghdad - A crippled bastard redhead stepchild of Close Combat Marines v3 (see below). Not worthy of the name.

Close Combat Cross of Iron - Rerelease of CC3 by Matrix Games with many bug fixes and incorporating some previous CC3 mods.

Close Combat Wacht Am Rhein - Rerelease of CC4 with many CC5 features added in.

Military Simulations not made available to the public (with one exception):

Close Combat Marines versions 2, 3, 3.1, 4, 5 and 6. Propriatary to the USMC. version 3.1 was distrubuted in the Marine Corps Gazette in 2004 (long out of print and back issues). Version 1 (not adopted) introduced 3 x 3 players on 1 km maps with 1 km x 4 km special maps. V.2 , v.3 and v.3.1 fixed some bugs, but not all. V.4 was to make it NMCI compliant, no data changes. V.5 (not adopted) to bring in CCRAF features. V.6 interactive Call for Fires and Close Air Support via a player acting as a Fire Support server capable of distributing close air support and off board artillery and mortars to 9 concurrent games. Shag your grid right or you will drop ord on someone else's map.

Close Combat Royal Air Force Regiment. Expanded CCM v4 to 10 players for use by the RAF Regiment - only. Changes incorporated into CCM v5 and v6.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 13
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 1:35:53 AM   
Senior Drill


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@Tejszd:

Re CCMAT: It was rolled up with CCMJTAC to become CCM6.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Senior Drill)
Post #: 14
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 2:27:15 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Senior Drill
On that next drive look for possible AT positions, MG positions, masked areas for infantry movement. Where are the positions on your advance that have long LOS, where would smoke mask a road crossing? Remember to watch the road as you drive.


Myself and friends are into hiking and I look for such things all the time!

Most people don't look at anything.

One time, wearing my customary red checked bushwalking shirt, going up a heavily timbered ridge with no track, I stepped off the spine of the ridge and moved to the left maybe 4 meters and say down for a break.

The 5 people following, walked straight past and never saw me!

I have have tested a few people on this with a mixture of success.

From time to time on my way home after work, the only light being the ambient light from street lights, head lights and houses, i stand under the 'shade' of a tree. People walk past and never see me.

-











(in reply to Senior Drill)
Post #: 15
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 2:33:02 AM   
Senior Drill


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Joe, my friend, perhaps you are simply not worthy of notice.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 16
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 3:20:42 AM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

From time to time on my way home after work, the only light being the ambient light from street lights, head lights and houses, i stand under the 'shade' of a tree. People walk past and never see me.


He may not be worthy of notice... but he sure is scary.

(in reply to Senior Drill)
Post #: 17
RE: Question about Scale - 4/24/2009 3:39:17 AM   
Q.M


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

quote:

From time to time on my way home after work, the only light being the ambient light from street lights, head lights and houses, i stand under the 'shade' of a tree. People walk past and never see me.


He may not be worthy of notice... but he sure is scary.




Amen brother...amen. Someone plot his address on a GPS and send me the co-ords, I need to put this area on the Out Of Bounds list....

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 18
RE: Question about Scale - 4/29/2009 10:54:46 PM   
Anthropoid


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Thanks Senior Drill. I don't seem to have been getting the Subscription notices from this thread.

So basically, if i can summarize: CC 1 is unlikely to be playable, and CC 2 is pretty old.

Cross of Iron is a re-releaase of 3, Wacht Am Rhein is a re-release of 4, and the Longest Day is largely new.

It sounds like the best prospective list to get first off would be WaR, Cross of Iron, and Longest Day for me; thanks!

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Q.M)
Post #: 19
RE: Question about Scale - 4/29/2009 11:09:38 PM   
Andrew Williams


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Longest Day is to CC5 what Wacht am Rhein is to CC4

More features are added to tLD  incl. windowed mode and Night effects... but these will soon be available for WaR as well.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 20
RE: Question about Scale - 5/5/2009 2:25:21 PM   
Llyranor


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Will CC CoI be updated with the gameplay additions/improvements from WaR/tLD as well?

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 21
RE: Question about Scale - 5/5/2009 9:17:16 PM   
Andrew Williams


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CoI is built on a different platform than WaR and tLD.

At this stage there are no plans to upgrade those enhanced gameplay features into CoI.


But, that's not the end of the story.

(in reply to Llyranor)
Post #: 22
RE: Question about Scale - 5/5/2009 11:21:39 PM   
panzerlehr62


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"More features are added to tLD incl. windowed mode and Night effects... but these will soon be available for WaR as well."


That sounds good. I think you guys might also consider another feature of TLD, smaller BGs for the allies on the starting maps for the GC, specially the bottom 2 which contain all thous shermans, making it almost impossible for the Germans to get any type of break out. Map LOS seems a lot better in TLD also, I think the WaR maps got to carried away with elevation.

Hopefully all this will benifit the TBTF remake....

Gz...





(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 23
RE: Question about Scale - 5/5/2009 11:44:06 PM   
Andrew Williams


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yes, onward and upward.

(in reply to panzerlehr62)
Post #: 24
RE: Question about Scale - 5/10/2009 10:37:48 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

... but these will soon be available for WaR as well


How?

Another patch?

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 25
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