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The Silent Service - 5/22/2002 1:29:06 PM   
vils

 

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Anyone have any luck with your subs?

I am sinking huge amount of tonnage, and i usually position them 2 hexes immediately SE and SW of Truk.

They hits lonely transports every turn, allthough they doesnt sink them all the time.

Speaking of that, a tanker hit by 4 torpedoes really SHOULD sink, but not in this game???

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Re: The Silent Service - 5/22/2002 1:38:48 PM   
Slaughtermeyer


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by vils
[B]
Speaking of that, a tanker hit by 4 torpedoes really SHOULD sink, but not in this game??? [/B][/QUOTE]

Not if they're dud American torpedoes that do not explode upon contact. I read about one instance where the detonator went off making a splash but the warhead did not explode.

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AS I've said on another thread.... - 5/22/2002 3:10:05 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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Sounds like there should be a USN Sub Doctrine ON/OFF toggle added like the one for IJN if there is not already one.

What is with the "Happy Time" enjoyed by the Silent Service in this game as posted in AARs? According to Clay Blair Jr. and JANAC, in all of 1942, 350 patrols were carried out by the USN sub force operating from Pearl Harbour, Australia, and the PI/Malay Barrier and only 180 ships were sunk for a total of 725,000 tons. "This figure was about equal to what thirty-eight German U-Boats in the Atlantic sank during the 2 months of February and March 1942."

Forty -five percent of these sinkings were accomplished by fifty-four patrols sent to the coast of Japan and the Luzon Straits off the northern Phillipines. Very little was accomplished during the blockade of Truk and patrols to the Solomons due to the constant chasing of Ultra contacts of fast moving, heavily escorted warships and patrolling highly defended points of concentration where adequate defenses could be readily brought to bear (TRUK).

Blame lies squarely on three things as Blair points out. Poor torpedo performance, poor skipper performance, and poor leadership at the highest levels of command within the submarine force resulting in a failure to unify strategy in the Pacific in 1942.

Poor torpedo performance negated the efforts of the few aggressive early USN sub drivers. Morale was adversely affected by spending an average of sixty days on patrol and risking the boat and lives of the crew on torpedoes which did not detonate or ran too deep, only to be admonished upon returning with no results by their myopic superiors (ie, Ralph Christie). This applied primarily to fleet boats armed with Mk 14s, not S-Boats armed with Mk 10s, but the mechanical failings of the S-Boats were enough to limit their performance. Not corrected until mid 1943.

Poor skipper performance. The older sub skippers with which the Silent Service started the war were a sad lot by the most part. Career oriented, they were prone to concerning themselves with anachronistic efforts such as spit and polish and maintaining spotless peacetime career standards, and were hampered by flawed pre war tactical assumptions like the effectiveness of the submerged sonar attack conducted well below periscope depth. The advanced age of prewar skippers also proved detrimental as the stresses inherant to the submarine force resulted in many being relieved for health reasons, causing a strain on the command structure and resulting in more time spent in port pending a change of command.

A unified offensive strategy aimed at the destruction of merchant shipping, instead of using subs "willy nilly" to defend against invasions (with massive ASW escort), on commando raids, for transport, supply, and evacuation missions, for chasing Ultras, minelaying missions etc.

Mogami pointed out that USN S-Boats have been behaving like a German wolfpack in his AAR. Given USN sub doctrine, that being with few exceptions US subs were given individual patrol areas (until trios of subs were sent out to try their hand at Doenitz's wolfpack tactics in 44/45) to reduce the chance of any friendly fire incidents between subs, the chances of coordinated attacks by US subs as witnessed by Mogami were less than nil.

Clay Blair concludes that the USN submarine offensive in 1942 was a failure. This is not even remotely reflected in these AARs. Once again, perhaps the game needs a USN 1942 Historical Sub Doctrine ON/OFF toggle, to complement the IJN one.

Just my $.02CDN.

:p

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Torp hits - 5/22/2002 3:31:49 PM   
vils

 

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I was referring to Torp hits causing critical damage..

Normally 2 direct hits was more than enough to write the transport off the board.

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Re: Torp hits - 5/22/2002 5:37:16 PM   
Supervisor

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by vils
[B]I was referring to Torp hits causing critical damage..

Normally 2 direct hits was more than enough to write the transport off the board. [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course, that is assuming that you actually hit it 2 times. FOW and all that. Your sub may have reported that it got 2 hits, but you might not have gotten more than 1 (or even none at all).

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- 5/22/2002 8:06:06 PM   
madflava13


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I can confirm that the subs are way over-reporting their hits... I've been nailing the Japs, or so it seems, around Lunga, but I have only confirmed 2 MSWs and 1 AP as sunk to this point, despite easily triple that in reported hits...

The reason the S-boats seem better than they should be is the Mk. 10 torp - it used a good contact exploder where the newer boats used the unreliable Mk. 14 with its Mk.6 Magnetic exploder. If an S boat gets a shot, it has a better chance of hitting...

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Re: Re: Torp hits - 5/22/2002 9:07:12 PM   
vils

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rowlf
[B]
Of course, that is assuming that you actually hit it 2 times. FOW and all that. Your sub may have reported that it got 2 hits, but you might not have gotten more than 1 (or even none at all). [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, according to game-engine, when a ship suffers Critical damage and blows a second time, you know that you have inflicted major of not fatal damage.

Take the Atlantic. A direct hit of 2 torpedoes (read NOT duds!) exploding took out most merchants. At least they became 'dead-in-water' even if they were not sinking until many hours later.

Why isn't the damage engine got 'dead in water' effects?

This we all know was a very common result from surface combat.

/Vils

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- 5/22/2002 10:10:00 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

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I'd point out that most of the "hyper aggressive" sub skippers are either still "On Patrol" or ended the war in a POW camp. Also, I think something like 75% of the tonnage sunk was by less than 25% of the submarines...people get fixated on the sexy heros, who, when all is said and done, lost their boat, lost their lives, and lost the lives of their crew.

Pre-war skippers for the most part were highly professional officers who followed doctrine, were usually older family men (with a vested interest in survival) who made their rank and earned command in some very tough competition between wars. "Spit and polish" for these guys was more than eyewash, you don't cram all those guys into a sardine can for 60 days and live like pigs, and "attention to detail" was quite often the margin of survival in the old class subs those guys cut their teeth on.

Don't forget pre-war doctrine, and that "unrestricted submarine warfare" was totally illegal by any standard. Some of the older guys didn't make the transition, and some of them weren't given a real opportunity to throw away an entire lifetime of training and experience before getting replaced by some young puppy more concerned with being a war hero than the survival of his boat and crew.

Early war, I certainly wouldn't have been going out and getting gay with a boatload of torpedoes that I knew had only about a 10% chance of working if I had any concerns about survival...suicide missions ain't in the contract.

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- 5/22/2002 10:16:51 PM   
madflava13


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I'd disagree that the "war heros" took unnecessary risks with their boats to gain fame. The only Skipper I think you could possibly make that argument for is Sam Dealey, the "Destroyer Killer", but the Harder was lost during a wolf pack attack on a convoy - nothing unusual or overly risky was done by him.

Red Ramage and Eugene Fluckey made two of the most daring and risky surface attacks of the war, and both lived to tell about it...

Just my two cents...

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Post #: 9
"Suicide missions ain't in the contract" - 5/23/2002 10:06:57 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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That's just my point. Given the fact that the USN submarine force was dogged by faulty torpedoes, doctrine, and unaggressive leadership, why the ahistorical results? How many ships have been dropped by the USN subs in a game? Someone, like U2, the sub master, should post it to let me know. I understand that there are lots of faulty reports, but are these reflected in the final tally?

I need something to do.:D

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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