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Jungle Warfare - 5/24/2002 3:21:21 AM   
Rankojin

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/4/2002
From: USA, Maine
Status: offline 		I've been playing for awhile now, and I've seem to become much more effective in the Western theater of war. But on the Eastern front... ohhh boy.
My happy infantry units go for another walk into the jungle today. I feel a great surge of pity rise from my stomach for the poor machine gunners who lug their large 30 cal. and 50 cal. weapons through the dense forest. But soon my pity disappears as one of my recon teams up front spots a hidden Japanese infantry squad. Surely... there are more.... I bring in serveral units and set up a 30 cal. machine gun which beginngs to lay down blind fire on the area. No squad can see the enemy. So for a few minutes I use the a 30 cal. gun to hose the area with fire to try to surpress the unseen enemy. I move in with my first infantry squad of 10 men, not 50 yards from the enemy, the next thing I hear is gun fire, but not from my men. I see serveral men fall and retreat back. But still no enemy has been sighted. I send in another infantry unit of 8 men from another angle, the jungle quickly comes alive with fire, the squad loses two men and is surpressed badly, but we see the enemy now. I order my machine gunners to open fire, but they are currently reloading, I curse my earily foolhearty order to fire blindly. I send in my third infantry unit, and still they are reduced by nearly half.
If only... if only I would have used a new tactic I think to myself as I'm court marshalled.

So theirs my little spiel. I can seem to get close enough to the enemy to engage them without getting torn apart. With the jungle 100 yards is a get view, usally one can only see 50 yards ahead of you which practically makes you walk ontop of the enemy your are looking for. I use arty but with limited or no LOS it's horribly inaccurate, and doesn't seem to do much.

Jungle tactics are needed! Save my men (and their rather new commander... ...)!
Post #: 1
RECON, RECON & RECON - 5/24/2002 3:57:32 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		is your answer. Large 8 man units will be spotted in a heart beat. Smaller 4 or 2 man recon/scout units moving slowly are much harder for the enemy to spot.
Also, if you move the entire movement factor all at once...in my opinion...you tend to get noticed easier as well. Whether that is just my perception or a real factor built into the game engine I can't say....but it seems to work for me.

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Post #: 2
- 5/24/2002 5:29:38 AM   
hellcat

 

Posts: 805
Joined: 3/25/2002
From: uk
Status: offline 		agreed - recon is the answer, use snipers with their weapons turned off as they will spot and be unlikely to get spotted, 2 man squads are also vital... both these tactics are doing me proud in my jungle fight with Jess at the moment :)

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Post #: 3
- 5/24/2002 7:48:50 AM   
Truckeye

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 6/11/2001
From: Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		wouldnt you think those large japanese massed 12-13 man units would have been spotted sooner then??

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Post #: 4
- 5/24/2002 10:03:27 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline 		Rankojin -

As a relatively new player of Pacific scenarios, I too have learned the hard way about sending full squads of Marines moving about the jungle at full distances. I should know better because I've studied this theater and its battles for years. Like you, my units always seem to "run" into hidden IJA units and take multiple hits. Not good.

I quickly learned to have lots of recon, scout, and sniper units out front to spot the enemy. Move them relatively slowly to reduce the likelihood of being spotted and triggering an enemy reaction. Setting snipers out with weapons turned off is a great idea that I haven't used yet.

I also found that when my aircraft fly over the terain (inbound and outbound), they will often uncover hidden units that can then be attacked with arty or mortars.

Also, try to flank the enemy as much as possible and even better, try to surround them for maximum destruction or block their retreat. It's the same tactics we used in the old board game days. It still works!

I have also used my arty and mortars at times to lay down harrassing fires in likely areas of enemy concentration or assembly as well as in front of my lines. Sometimes you'll uncover hidden units. Just don't drop the rounds too close to your own lines. The troops won't like it. Good luck.

(in reply to Rankojin)
Post #: 5
- 5/24/2002 10:32:09 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Yes sir, small 2 or 3 man recon teams are the only way to go. And snipers of course if you have them. Always turn off their weapons as stated above.

Always save your mg fire for the times that the Japs are in plain sight. Any thing else is a waste of good ammo in the thick jungle.
And I am going to start a flurry here by stating that 60mm mortars can be your friend in the jungle fighting battles! Yes they will most likely never score a kill but that "suppression" factor you are looking for can come from lt. mortars. I know as I use them for such all the time. :D

Part of the myth of what "great jungle warfare" experts the Japanese were carried over into the SP series of games. That is why you can have 12 and 13 man Japanese infantry squads go unnoticed untill you step on them! :eek:

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Post #: 6
- 5/24/2002 10:51:52 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		You confused me when you said East Front
From now on say Pacific Theater


Recon works very well but another tactic is one I learned from wathcing too much of the history channel and taks with my grandfather (army enginer).

When ever you see real footage, its of the Americans putting a devastating amount of firepower into an area.

Ive fought some good jungle battles latly and ive found that a massive amount (Ive been counting 300-500 81mm-150mm shells in a 25 hex area)

Then I take scouts in the area to get a general idea of whats there.
Then I throw tanks in to asorb some of the fire and throw some rounds their way (they are inaccurate)
Then comes the important part
Enginers (I know im not spelling it right but its late) are godsends.
Get them close enough and then use mans best friend, something I like to call fire.
Send stream after strem of molten chemical goodness their way and they will take massive casulties and fall back.
Next move your tanks up to espose more of their postions.
The most important thing is that when you smell blood dont back down keep chasing them causing more casulties.
Your tanks and other teams will keep the rest of the enemy at bay and cause them to run too.
Japs are notorious for running "replanting" and firing again so keep after them until they are burnt stumps with the jungle.
Granted this takes lots of points but it works.

Last battle I played (it was massive)
I bought for myself (US marines) and IJA
I gave them caves, bunks, 2 batallions and plenty of artllary and armored cars.

They dug in well (7.1 AI is pretty **** good at defense) but I prevailed

I got a DV spending only 1.7 times the points they did (assult) They took a whopping 2700 casulties while I took 960
they lost 94% of their force.



Hope some of this helps

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Post #: 7
Re: Jungle Warfare - 5/24/2002 7:53:09 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rankojin
[B]So theirs my little spiel. I can seem to get close enough to the enemy to engage them without getting torn apart. With the jungle 100 yards is a get view, usally one can only see 50 yards ahead of you which practically makes you walk ontop of the enemy your are looking for. I use arty but with limited or no LOS it's horribly inaccurate, and doesn't seem to do much.

Jungle tactics are needed! Save my men (and their rather new commander... ...)! [/B][/QUOTE]

Jungle tactics are a little different, like many people before have said nothing is better then good recon troops.

Another tactic is paients. You always have better to hit percentages if you wait for the guys to come out of hiding. So when you get contact move up to where the enemy's local is and wait. If they come out then you have them. If they sit tight and fire at you, well now you have a much better chance to hit them with return fire and you tend to take less damage because you have had a turn to seek cover in the terrain you are in.
Second do not forget to use your artilary. It will suppress the infantry and if you use small caliber (would not recommend 50mm only a range of 10) artilary 60mm to 82mm they are very accruate even when firing blind. This way you can have your artillary blasts land only 2-3 hexs in front of you and then move forward and clear out your pockets of resistance that is left.

Good luck

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Post #: 8
- 5/25/2002 10:42:28 AM   
bigtroutz


Posts: 2417
Joined: 4/22/2001
From: Montana, USA
Status: offline 		heh, you doods are wussies....

1) lay down a nice rocket/mortar/arty barrage to suppress em,
(you mite also fire into em a few times with inf, if reqd)

2) run on top of them with a cute light tank/halftrack then hit the alt -O (overrun) and listen to em scream and die.

3) if no tank/apv is handy, flame em with engineers, then move an adjacent unit on top of em and hit alt-M (melee)

repeat as required.

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Post #: 9
Wow....wussies.... - 5/26/2002 2:21:04 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		have any of us ever been called a wussy on the forum before? :mad:
And then to be topped off with "doods"? What the hell is a dood anyway?:D
Granted I am not a jungle fighter by nature...I love my armor too much. But perhaps one of the gang can try "bigs" theory out? I just test-played Warriors "Blood for Breakfast" scenario...and that "run at them" approach would end up as one thing...a total disaster.
Maybe it's preference...but I'll stick with the scouts and recon units...an elephant plodding through the jungle is easier to find than a lurking tiger. ;)

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Post #: 10
Re: Wow....wussies.... - 5/28/2002 2:24:05 AM   
bigtroutz


Posts: 2417
Joined: 4/22/2001
From: Montana, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orzel Bialy
[B]have any of us ever been called a wussy on the forum before? :mad:
And then to be topped off with "doods"? What the hell is a dood anyway?:D
Granted I am not a jungle fighter by nature...I love my armor too much. But perhaps one of the gang can try "bigs" theory out? I just test-played Warriors "Blood for Breakfast" scenario...and that "run at them" approach would end up as one thing...a total disaster.
Maybe it's preference...but I'll stick with the scouts and recon units...an elephant plodding through the jungle is easier to find than a lurking tiger. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

hehe, well, OKAY, i drew a rise....my point was that you can move right up next to a unit supressed by mulitple arty hits with your tanks/apv/infantry without getting assaulted. then you have a good chance of eliminating the unit in its entirety with only 3 units of fire and some movement points (alt - O) [for noobs: run up ON TOP of an enemy inf unit with a shift-click, then over-run with a ALT-O but DONT do this unless the unit is retreating or 'better'] .... This is much better than multiple turns of attack / retreat / attack etc Move your Tank/AFV units in lines with at most 2 hexes between, and you will 'bump' every enemy unit.

its very rare for a scenario to give you as much arty as i generally buy, so i dont generally use this technique with them unless the scenario is generous.

there is a significant difference between "run at them" and barrage the heck outta them, then "run at them", that truly being a total disaster for the 1st and a speedy denoument for the 2nd.

To give this tactic the equipment it needs, mount a significant portion of your infantry (i prefer engineers with flamethrowers) on halftracks/AFV (especially those w/ 2-3 MGs), buy 6-12 light tanks with 2 man scouts/bazookas/snipers/ANZ flamethrower commandos on them, 4 or more M15 AA with a bazooka on each (for tanks/caves/etc), and buy as much arty rounds/unit as you can afford. Then barrage an area to your thrusts front, and move in to finish the dazed units off. I typically buy only 2 companies of inf (one = engineers), 1/3 of my core points and 95% of support points go into arty, the remainder into light tanks/flame tanks, apv, scouts, etc. My MINIMUM arty for this tactic is (6) 60mm, (6) 81mm mortars, 4-6+ 105 - 155+ mm arty or rockets. Move your armor with scouts/snipers 1st, then your AFVs.

when rockets become available, this is a real killer tactic, since 6-10 rockets units will allow you to employ it to the ENTIRE army front and move 6 or more hexes per turn. After 2-3 turns of this, the enemy AI will try to bombard your Army Hdqtrs and rockets, but it will rarely result in much damage. If you have US Marine truck rockets, however, you can move em. US Rockets will generate a tight ~6x6 blast pattern when used from <20-30 hexes but spread out considerably from larger distances. Almost every unit within the pattern will be 'retreating' or totally incapacitated, an easy over-run target.

Admittedly, this will spoil SP-WAWs pretty terrain, resulting in a moonscape(hehe), but its kinda cool to sweep thru the enemy with hardly a casualty.

PS: a dood is an IRC term of endearment

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Post #: 11
- 6/3/2002 1:48:31 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Before your main force have a screen of patrols. They should be 2 to six men in size, with SMGs, LMGs, grenades, and sniper rifles. Never move more than half of your allotted radius, you can miss or stumble on enemies. Patrols should be in supporting distance of each other. Behind the patrols comes your main force, moving at the speed of the slowest unit. If there are roads or trails, you may mount them in APCs but it's best if they are on foot, using APCs as fire support.

When a patrol reports a contact, it should pull back keeping the enemy in sight. Never fire the first shot. Let the enemy do that. You will get a better chance of a hit if you let the enemy uncover. Your supporting forces should move up slowly, caring for flanks and rear. Patrols in supporting distance should move slowly toward the contact, keeping a good look out for enemy. Patrols out of supporting distance should hold their positions and report.

If the contact is only an enemy patrol, it can be annihilated or driven off by the patrols. If it is of platoon strength or greater. Mortars and artillery should be called on it. Then it may be engaged by the supporting platoons from your main force. When it is destroyed or driven off, the patrols should return to their original paths, with the main force following.

Due to the habit of striking vehicles before indicated map points, air strikes are contraindicated.

troopie

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Pamwe Chete

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Post #: 12
Wow! - 6/4/2002 5:19:31 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		My oh my! The wise counsel of many! There is not much I could possibly add to such good advice from so many.

I'm thrilled to see the depth of understanding of tactics on the part of each one of you. I also enjoy the fact that you are so deeply involved in my favorite theater of war.

I can only underline the suggestions given. You cannot kill the enemy until you find him. Caution and patience are virtures here. Most of your heroes will be dead ones even at that!

Use all resources...artillery firepower, special weapons to whittle down the enemy. He will resist to the last. But he can be beaten.

As history supports, the Japanese were often foolhardy, at least in the war against the western allies after 1942 when conducting attacks. The suicide and human wave charges are graphic proof of that fact.

Defensively, however, they were probably the best soldiers of the war. With antiquated equipment and weapons, they still put up a deadly lethal defense that cost the lives of many thousands of Americans, British, Australian, Dutch and others.

The sad thing is that even with improved tactics by the Marines, Army and other nationalities, the casualty rates grew ominously on both sides.

So these kind of blood baths are to be expected in the jungle/island fighting of the Pacific.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 13
Re: Wow! - 6/4/2002 7:56:09 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill

So these kind of blood baths are to be expected in the jungle/island fighting of the Pacific.

Wild Bill [/B][/QUOTE]

And there you have it! I bow to the King! ;)

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Post #: 14
- 6/4/2002 12:01:21 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		And we love it, don't we, Rook! ;)

The Colonel

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 15
- 6/5/2002 9:51:09 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Ay Kunel, that we do, that we surely do! :D

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Post #: 16
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