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RE: Tora, Tora, Tora!

 
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RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 9:45:07 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

so now we can say a big 'thanks for nothing' to all the whingers, who not only prevented this AAR from progressing (because tree got sidetracked re-running turn one 20 times) but also for delaying the release while all the dev team ran around responding to the panic merchants who were screaming "its broken, its broken". Now.... enough whinging. play the AAR. Release the game. Enough said!!



If the game gives a 60% chance that the Japanese will do better than they did historically,
it is, arguably, broken. ( Of course the fact that the game assumes that all the Kates carried either 800kg bombs or torpedoes when, in fact about a third carried smaller bombs, one should expect the Japanese to do better.) The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over.



Geez..........


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Post #: 241
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 10:57:26 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

so now we can say a big 'thanks for nothing' to all the whingers, who not only prevented this AAR from progressing (because tree got sidetracked re-running turn one 20 times) but also for delaying the release while all the dev team ran around responding to the panic merchants who were screaming "its broken, its broken". Now.... enough whinging. play the AAR. Release the game. Enough said!!



If the game gives a 60% chance that the Japanese will do better than they did historically,
it is, arguably, broken. ( Of course the fact that the game assumes that all the Kates carried either 800kg bombs or torpedoes when, in fact about a third carried smaller bombs, one should expect the Japanese to do better.) The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over.









Attachment (1)

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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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Post #: 242
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 10:59:00 AM   
51st Highland Div


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/23/2005
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Status: offline
I think there a bit of a narrow minded view going on here in regards to one day out of several hundreds in the Pacific War.You can sink as many Battleships etc as you want still aint going to stop the US juggernaut advancing west towards Tokyo..

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Post #: 243
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 11:08:00 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Which is why this whole discussion is so academic. The game is 1643 days long. Whether or not one more US BB goes down or 20 more IJN aircraft are destroyed is utterly, UTTERLY without relevance.

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Post #: 244
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 11:50:35 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		It miffs me and I'm not even involved in the game!

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Post #: 245
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 11:52:49 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

It miffs me and I'm not even involved in the game!

Me too.........now where's my Hoe..............

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Post #: 246
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 12:10:42 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

so now we can say a big 'thanks for nothing' to all the whingers, who not only prevented this AAR from progressing (because tree got sidetracked re-running turn one 20 times) but also for delaying the release while all the dev team ran around responding to the panic merchants who were screaming "its broken, its broken". Now.... enough whinging. play the AAR. Release the game. Enough said!!



If the game gives a 60% chance that the Japanese will do better than they did historically,
it is, arguably, broken. ( Of course the fact that the game assumes that all the Kates carried either 800kg bombs or torpedoes when, in fact about a third carried smaller bombs, one should expect the Japanese to do better.) The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over.




There are certain events which might provoke one to start having ones' wife go out each morning...to start the car.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 5/22/2009 12:15:36 PM >

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Post #: 247
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 1:30:14 PM   
drw61


Posts: 894
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		I think that Splinterhead was just trying to get a reaction.  Just ignore him, he'll go away.

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Post #: 248
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 1:35:50 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead

If the game gives a 60% chance that the Japanese will do better than they did historically,
it is, arguably, broken. ( Of course the fact that the game assumes that all the Kates carried either 800kg bombs or torpedoes when, in fact about a third carried smaller bombs, one should expect the Japanese to do better.) The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over.


Congratulations, you've become the first recipient of my green button...


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Post #: 249
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 1:52:11 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Pitchforks and torches at the exits. Help yourselves...



Sorry, due to unexpectedly high demand and limited supply, we can only provide torches for every fourth villager or farmer. There are enough pitchforks for approximately half of the expected mob, the rest must use rakes and the odd hoe.




Doesnt that in effect mean that Shrek will win 100% of the time?
Its broken! HOW RUDE!
I blame Termi and will instigate a petition to get him fired! Blame the danes! Every thing is rotten the in the state of Denmark!

Kind regards,

Rasmus

P.S


< Message edited by Walloc -- 5/22/2009 1:54:26 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 250
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 2:01:50 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Guys, people on this forum are allowed to disagree without being ganged up on. I agree that concern over this is overblown and without context, but I respect that others may feel differently. Just agree to disagree.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 251
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 2:03:57 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead

...The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over.



Perhaps you are just pulling everyones chain a little. Thus the greatness of playing against the AI becomes apparent.
If the AI sinks my entire fleet at PH all I have to do is restart. AI never complains about it. Next time they will most likely not score so well.
Please get back to and continue this AAR....



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Amphibious Assault at Kota Bharu
TF 85 troops securing a beachhead at Kota Bharu, 51,75
whew! I still feel better.

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Post #: 252
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:03:03 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Pitchforks and torches at the exits. Help yourselves...



Sorry, due to unexpectedly high demand and limited supply, we can only provide torches for every fourth villager or farmer. There are enough pitchforks for approximately half of the expected mob, the rest must use rakes and the odd hoe.




This is due to hardcoding of the slots that contain devices "Pitchfork" and "torch"

So sorry.

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Post #: 253
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:09:06 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		First person to see all their BBs go down in pearl (with one attack) deserves a T-shirt.

BTW - I hate to say it, but all the Japs on 12.7 could have had navigational problems and no ships got sunk. Or a dozen or so torps and bombs hit there target that didn't historically, and that ordinanace hit magazines etc. causing 4x the damage that had actually occurred.

And McAullife's last words could have been, "Aw, Nuts!" before a bomb was dropped on his HQ and the 101st were overrun.

I think they call it the fortunes of war.

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Post #: 254
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:16:40 PM   
Splinterhead


Posts: 335
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Lenoir City, TN
Status: offline 		For those of you who are a little slow, an explanation of my point:

Sentence 1:

"If the game gives a 60% chance that the Japanese will do better than they did historically, it is, arguably, broken. "

This was written in reply to Flying Tigers dismissal of those who take an opposing view from his as "whingers" (whiners). Using a general insult rather than a reasoned argument is a good way to insure that somebody will continue to "waste" your time. If one considers the historical results as median then losing 0 to 4 BBs should be within the normal limits, in my opinion.

Which brings us to sentence 2:

" ( Of course the fact that the game assumes that all the Kates carried either 800kg bombs or torpedoes when, in fact about a third carried smaller bombs, one should expect the Japanese to do better.)"

This was put in to point out that if the game consistantly gave historic results, it might actually be a bigger problem since due to design limitations the Kates actually are about 50% more powerful than historically. (Yes, this means sentence one was actually meant to annoy Flying Tiger and not to be taken completely seriously).

Sentence 3:"The only rational solution is to scrap the current, horribly botched mess and start over. "

I'm honestly suprised that anybody, especially so many of you, didn't get it.

I would like to apologize to any of the developers who may have taken this remark seriously. It was not my intention to denigrate your years of work. You have shown a dedication and knowledge I don't pretend to have.

As for the rest of you who were offended, especially the green button boy, .





(in reply to rhohltjr)
Post #: 255
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:30:44 PM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline 		The problem is that everyone just wants AE.... And since we can't have AE (yet), all we have to do is pathetically sit around the forum and over-analyze every morsel of information the devs give us, and have nothing better to do than go into a frenzy over every post.

The solution is easy - just give us AE! (Then the real whining can begin )


(in reply to Splinterhead)
Post #: 256
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:31:16 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead
Kates actually are about 50% more powerful than historically.


To reduce Kate "power" in the game just modify something like their torpedo device values (as an example) this can be changed easily in the editor. Increase the dud rate to 80 - that will defang them immensely! In AE we have not modified these value from stock - but modders are free to do so as they always have been.






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Post #: 257
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:47:58 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		I remember the 1.0 release of WITP, in that version you could get almost anything in the inital PH attack, this was toned down in later patches, so much so, that you would be hard pressed to sink more than 1 or 2 BB's.

I don't understand why it's 60% and not 50% better than history but, 10% more is not that much of a difference.  Someone will create a Dec 8th scenario with historical results after AE is released.




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Post #: 258
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:51:40 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		yup.


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Post #: 259
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 3:52:47 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It could still be an official, post-release scenario.

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Post #: 260
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 4:44:00 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Ya'll want to get off my porch with this AFB Pearl Harbor on and on thingie. Think there might be 1 more available thread in Matrix's arsenal for it

On a side note, just got off another 13 hour day and was sitting down to work on my turn when I noticed a PM from Tree telling me to go back to the older version of AE, so installing that now and will have to re-run the combat. Hope my PT still scores against that Goliath.

Edit: But on the plus side, I now have my AE code memorized

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 5/22/2009 4:45:28 PM >

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Post #: 261
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 5:09:33 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Surface combats went as before. Air combats were different. The minesweepers at Pearl went unattacked, but I sank 2 sweepers that I didnt in the PI. Only 1 of the PGs went down, the other was damaged adn on fire and only 1 of the 2 AKs were sunk by Bettys.

Dont mess with Jap PTs




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 262
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 6:21:02 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

I remember the 1.0 release of WITP, in that version you could get almost anything in the inital PH attack, this was toned down in later patches, so much so, that you would be hard pressed to sink more than 1 or 2 BB's.

I don't understand why it's 60% and not 50% better than history but, 10% more is not that much of a difference.  Someone will create a Dec 8th scenario with historical results after AE is released.



pad. One of the large "bones of contention" in the AE "discussion" on PH results is one-sidedness. The possible damage results on the Allied side run the gamit from 0% of historical sinkings to 300% of historical sinkings. But Japanese A/C losses run from 10% of historical to 25% of historical. So while Allied losses can be three times what they were in reality, Japanese losses can NEVER even reach 1/3rd of the historical ones. And that just ain't right!

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 263
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 7:00:56 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Ill take cheese with this thread and little more AAR if possible (seems like its in short supply).

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Post #: 264
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 7:14:02 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Wouldn't the actual median be something more like 4.5 sunk.  Looking at it from a WitP float damage point of view we have:

Oklahoma - 100% float
Arizona - 100% float
West Virginia - 99% float (sunk but raised)
California - 99% float (sunk but raised)
Nevada - hard to say, but considering she was bed enough off to be grounded, at least 50%
Maryland, Tennessee, Pennsylvania - pretty low float, call it 2% total to make my math work.

So going from 4.5 ships sunk to 5, or even 6, isn't a huge leap.  Certainly not 300%.  Obviously part of the "problem" is that sunk ships at Pearl Harbor cannot be raised later in the game.  And it is probably not worth adding in some sort of work-around (e.g. making it harder to get to 100% float damage for the PH attack) just for that one day's attacks, especially if it potentially affects other attacks where the same circumstances don't apply.  We don't want BBs "in Port" at Iwo Jima "settling in the mud" to be raised later, for example.

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Post #: 265
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 7:19:14 PM   
OldCoot

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline 		Please send the PH on and on thinge back to the kitchen and send me a helping of AAR as soon as the cook serves it up.

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Post #: 266
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 7:50:44 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Any updates coming up YH?

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Post #: 267
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 8:07:55 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
Are you sure we have another month of this nonsense to endure before we can get our grubby paws on the game?

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Post #: 268
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 11:14:47 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Why did you have to go back to an earlier version of AE? Inquiring minds want to know... 

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fair winds,
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Post #: 269
RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! - 5/22/2009 11:25:20 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well i would be laughing if the thing that happend to Terminator: Salvation Game happens to AE Any way i remeber one game of WITP when i got like 5 BB's sunk in Pearl after one attack

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Post #: 270
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