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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets >> Defend Krasnograd?

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Defend Krasnograd? - 5/18/2009 1:43:56 PM

Avatar47

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Wanted to ask others what they thought of a particular opener for the Germans. I've noticed in my last 4 email games that my opponents (ie Mario, CarlMyers) have repeatedly declined to contest Krasnograd/Lanaya/Pereshchepino, and move forces there to defend against the southern Kharkov thrust. Wise or not?

My opinion: not. As much as those forces could be used to the north, defending Krasnograd/Lanaya is too critical. Even a (significant) delay helps, delaying Soviet reinforcements which could be used in a variety of places, especially around Izyum. I've never not defended Krasnograd (and haven't seen it captured from me yet either :D). I find it is absolutely necessary to divert Bobkin and 6th Army resources away from Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov, where their units can be more easily targeted by counter-attacks. As well, even if Krasno were to fall, then imo it is still necessary to continue protecting Lanaya (or vice versa) until Wiking comes into play. It's a hell of a lot easier for Wiking to push north if there are defenders remaining there.

All this, and I didn't mention the point loss from not holding Krasno/Lanaya, which builds up to hundreds and hundreds later in the game. I place considerably more importance on holding objectives than a lot of my opponents do. My opps usually choose the short-term obj of destroying units while I usually prefer taking objectives, seeing them more as a long-term investment.

Opinions?

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/18/2009 2:42:46 PM

Talos Run5

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Not really active on Matrix, but very active over on the Run5 site. Bit for what its worth, agree with some of the strategy but not all of it after an entertaining game with mario inthe tournament.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/18/2009 3:53:06 PM

Avatar47

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Should post this on Run5 shouldn't I? I registered too late for the tourney, I'm still on reserve, but me thinks no one will drop out at this point...

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/19/2009 12:12:01 PM

Talos Run5

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On a slightly different note would you be interested in a game?

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 6:00:02 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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I successfully defended both Krasnograd and Kharkov in my last two email games as Germany. I found out the problem with defending both cities is it pretty much guarantees your opponent will quit the game early. I guess giving up Krasnograd for free helps to keep your opponent in the game. I've never finished a PBEM game with Kharkov or the DB series.

Historically, the Germans defended both so it's unrealistic, and fairly cowardly, to abandon a huge section of the frontline and just let the Soviets come pouring into rear areas unopposed. There would a summons back to Berlin which you probably should not comply with. Better odds on volunteering for the Gulag.

< Message edited by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -- 5/20/2009 6:09:23 AM >

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 8:53:39 AM

Avatar47

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As I hear you're one of the best players Talos, I do accept your challenge! I have one ongoing game against CarlMyers, we just started an all-variants game.

SS Haupt: I see it the same way. Feel that giving up Krasno is gamey, soviets should have to fight every step of the way to capture it!

As far as email games go, I also have never actually finished a complete game. My 1st email game I gave up turn 3, after which I learned very quickly and haven't lost since. My opps have so far consistently surrendered between turns 7-11. Haven't seen a turn 12 yet :D.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 9:28:04 AM

Talos Run5

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Email sent via the matrix site, let me know if nothing turns up.

I have not made up my mind about Krasno, i can see advantages both ways and still have not come to a conclusion which is better. You don't need Krosnograd to win as the Soviets in fact it is probable a VP location i would avoid trying to capture early on.

< Message edited by Talos Run5 -- 5/20/2009 9:29:59 AM >

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 9:57:34 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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In the historical battle, the Soviets were pushing hard northwards towards the south side of Kharkov and could not make much headway. However, Krasnograd was a secondary objective and the attack west made steady progress and made it to the city with some fighting in it. If you look at the operational map of the fighting in this southeastern area, the Germans maintained a solid frontline all the way south of Borki down to the area east of Pereshchepino and then eastwards. The Germans never did pull out all their units to hide somewhere like in Kharkov city. Basically the set-up at the start of the game shows the German line in the southeast as it was historically and the Soviets pushed hard straight west towards Krasnograd on a narrow front during the battle. There was no retreat by the Germans except on that very narrow part of the line bending back towards Krasnograd and doing another fighting retreat northwards towards Borki. The Soviets were frustrated that they could not push north as fast as they had planned so Krasnograd became more attractive as a target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

SS Haupt: I see it the same way. Feel that giving up Krasno is gamey, soviets should have to fight every step of the way to capture it!

I like this thinking very much! Do you play both sides?

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 2:52:05 PM

Avatar47

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I play both sides quite well as a matter of fact! Knowing both sides well is a great advantage, for you know the strengths/weaknesses of each side. When playing as the germans, I can see 'mistakes' in every Soviet opening, which I'll use to my advantage. Since there is no perfect opening, there are always mistakes to capitalize on.

Looking forward to starting a game vs Talos. Also wouldn't mind seeing some more AAR's, from veterans. Maybe Talos and I should be examples..... :D

Adding to the discussion, apart from Krasno being super valuable, Lanaya is almost more important for its reinforcements. I can't imagine why a german player would willingly give up these 2 objs without a fight. Those 3 divisions are huge early game. The longer the german can delay the soviets getting them, the better.

I have to admit though, I don't put up much of a fight for Chuguyev. Although I don't give it away per se, I don't mind losing it a few turns, that reinforcement division at Belgorod is really really nice (at the cost of an expanded 38th Army AO)

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 4:06:35 PM

Talos Run5

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I think I already commented on the run5 site that Lanaya in my mind is the prime VP location for the Soviets because of the extra reinforcements. As regarding AAR's, I already have two going for the Rommel Master of Battle final so will not be in the process of doing anymore at the moment, they restrict my gaming time too much.

< Message edited by Talos Run5 -- 5/20/2009 4:07:35 PM >

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 8:23:44 PM

mariovalleemtl

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quote:

I successfully defended both Krasnograd and Kharkov in my last two email games as Germany. I found out the problem with defending both cities is it pretty much guarantees your opponent will quit the game early

LOL ! How many PBEM did you do with good players SS ? Again a good players you will loose one of those city. Again a very good player, you may loose both. I have play more the 50 PBEM games so far and I have win most of my games has a Russian when my opponent try to do what you said.

Personally, I send South just a fews small units at the beginning. I put 4 units hedgehog in Krasnograd itself and hope they stay there for long. Most of the time they did. I keep ALL my big units near Kharkov till the front are secure there (About 5 turns). After that, I send the two Panzer Div. to re-take Krasnograd. Usually it work well .

I play this scenario to many time. If I folow my plan, games after games, I win most of the time. But it become boring to do alway the same. So I try to change, I try different tactic. And then I loose. It is like that evey time when you play a single battle. You try many situation and at one point, voila; you find the best way.

BTW, a other big secret in this game is the art of multi attack on a single hex. I haved see 4, 5, and 6 attack over the same stack in the same turn. The German must do that to cross the river near Izyum and the Russian in his way to Kharkov. With a bit of luck, this tactic is devastating. If you play the German and you send to many troups to defend Krasnograd, I will do that tactic from the East and front the South of Kharkov and I assure you that Von Paulus will find himself in a reeducation camp earlier then he thought.

Can't wait for a new game from SSG.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/20/2009 8:46:44 PM

Avatar47

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quote:

I put 4 units hedgehog in Krasnograd itself and hope they stay there for long. Most of the time they did. I keep ALL my big units near Kharkov till the front are secure there (About 5 turns). After that, I send the two Panzer Div. to re-take Krasnograd. Usually it work well .

You mean 4 units hedgehogged in Lanaya, not Krasno :o). Actually that was a cool tactic that I saw from you Mario, putting 3-4 strong units in Lanaya to make it impervious to attack. I also like the tactic of sending the panzers down when they've completed their Kharkov mission. Only problem is that this tactic is a little obvious. After I see an opp who keeps BOTH panzer divs near kharkov, then I know what I can and cannot down south of Kharkov. If the german player sends 1 panzer div down south, then I'm not too sure about what I can or cannot do. Yes, Kharkov is more open to attack with this strat, but overall I see more advantages splitting the panzers up. Matter of taste I guess too!

< Message edited by Avatar47 -- 5/20/2009 8:47:07 PM >

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/21/2009 1:42:01 PM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

quote:

I put 4 units hedgehog in Krasnograd itself and hope they stay there for long. Most of the time they did. I keep ALL my big units near Kharkov till the front are secure there (About 5 turns). After that, I send the two Panzer Div. to re-take Krasnograd. Usually it work well .

You mean 4 units hedgehogged in Lanaya, not Krasno :o). Actually that was a cool tactic that I saw from you Mario, putting 3-4 strong units in Lanaya to make it impervious to attack. I also like the tactic of sending the panzers down when they've completed their Kharkov mission. Only problem is that this tactic is a little obvious. After I see an opp who keeps BOTH panzer divs near kharkov, then I know what I can and cannot down south of Kharkov. If the german player sends 1 panzer div down south, then I'm not too sure about what I can or cannot do. Yes, Kharkov is more open to attack with this strat, but overall I see more advantages splitting the panzers up. Matter of taste I guess too!

This is good thinking. The uncertainty made by packing a punch in two places is better than one big punch in only one area. Are the Panzers kept near Krasnograd safe? If you keep them back and hidden in a fortified hex it is probably okay.

As for the gamey pattern of sending everything to the south of Kharkov, it seems to be caused by one player doing it which forces the other to also send everything to Kharkov to even up the odds. I think a more dynamic game of fighting at Krasnograd, Pereschepino and Kharkov makes for a more fun game with even odds for both sides. In my game now we are scrapping at all 3 locations at the same time. The wild fighting is fun. Having given up on Kharkov, he is struggling very hard to get into both Krasnograd and that big city in the southwest. He's using rotating stacks of infantry and tanks to smash my hogs. There is horse meat all over the roads from the ongoing Stuka bombing, artillery and Romanian riflemen trying to hold on in Dnepropetrovsk. Pereschepino is changing hands as I have 2 divisions working on cutting the rampaging Russians' supply lines.

EDIT: I made a mistake. I mean Pereschepino not Lanaya so I fixed the name. Lanaya is still safe inside my Krasnograd defensive works.

< Message edited by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -- 5/21/2009 2:45:52 PM >

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/21/2009 5:46:03 PM

mariovalleemtl

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Yes , Lanaya. Dam name

About we organize a little tournament ''sur invitation'' with only expert PBEM players ?

Carl ,Lewis , Alex, Jos ,etc. For the glory and also to find the best strategy.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/21/2009 7:19:35 PM

Talos Run5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

quote:

I put 4 units hedgehog in Krasnograd itself and hope they stay there for long. Most of the time they did. I keep ALL my big units near Kharkov till the front are secure there (About 5 turns). After that, I send the two Panzer Div. to re-take Krasnograd. Usually it work well .

You mean 4 units hedgehogged in Lanaya, not Krasno :o). Actually that was a cool tactic that I saw from you Mario, putting 3-4 strong units in Lanaya to make it impervious to attack. I also like the tactic of sending the panzers down when they've completed their Kharkov mission. Only problem is that this tactic is a little obvious. After I see an opp who keeps BOTH panzer divs near kharkov, then I know what I can and cannot down south of Kharkov. If the german player sends 1 panzer div down south, then I'm not too sure about what I can or cannot do. Yes, Kharkov is more open to attack with this strat, but overall I see more advantages splitting the panzers up. Matter of taste I guess too!

This will work most of the time for Lanaya (there is the odd occasion where it will not), though i think their is away of improving on what Mario does here, will have to see if its any good in our game. Re the employment of the panzer divisions, i believe they are stronger when they working together than if they are working separately, but it does depend on the situation.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/21/2009 7:36:01 PM

Carl Myers

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quote:

Opinions?

A deep defense of Kransograd with a Panzer division has an obvious counter that makes it a losing strategy for the German player.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/22/2009 5:16:29 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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I understand that Kragsnograd can be taken by the Soviets no matter the German commitment to defending it if the Soviets so decide. My posts earlier are just to say that a battle fought over several areas is likely to be more fun and historical than a single struggle south of Kharkov. Just my taste anyways.

Avatar47, how are you doing in the battles where the German player only defends Kharkov with everything?

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/22/2009 8:56:20 PM

mariovalleemtl

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quote:

a battle fought over several areas is likely to be more fun and historical than a single struggle south of Kharkov. Just my taste anyways

That's true SS. But it is also fun to win some games.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/24/2009 11:51:42 PM

Avatar47

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Playing as the Soviets, I can say that if the german player uses both panzer divs at Kharkov, then I have a more or less free hand in other areas and can move my pieces accordingly. If he uses 1, then I'm forced to think twice about my moves everywhere on the board.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/25/2009 6:42:50 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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How do you make the Wiking division come up? I never saw hide nor hair of it except in my very first game against the AI AAR game it appeared. Is there is an alert hex for it? I'm gonna stomp on that hex if I find it.

Mario Vallee, you said you played over 50 games already.... golly that's a lot! Like how many turns a day do you crank out? I wanna play 50 games too but my turns take a long time. I usually have my turn loaded on my computer and like come and go several times in a day before my turn gets sent off to the victim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

Playing as the Soviets, I can say that if the german player uses both panzer divs at Kharkov, then I have a more or less free hand in other areas and can move my pieces accordingly. If he uses 1, then I'm forced to think twice about my moves everywhere on the board.

This is cool. I got a problem with my AOs in my last game so I can't do that. The AOs restrict my access to the area east of Kharkov making 2 divisions unable to fight there so I need more stuff brought up from the south to block it off so I can't do my big Krasnograd defensive plan. My Kharkov defense needs a lot of troops cause I do so much counterattacking every turn so I need troops to fight with the tanks and more for the hogs. I'm still gonna defend Kraz this game but not use Panzers there until later sometime or depending on what my opponent does. But he's loading up bigstyle on Kras right now so I'm real tempted to go scrap down there. I think I've become an overrun junkie.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/25/2009 7:38:33 PM

Avatar47

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Lol, overrun junkie. Aren't we all??

quote:

My Kharkov defense needs a lot of troops cause I do so much counterattacking every turn so I need troops to fight with the tanks and more for the hogs.

Problem I see with that defense, is that as the Soviet player, I would simply stop attacking Kharkov, and use my available air strikes (and possibly interdiction) elsewhere. If I notice the german player is in the mood for an aggressive Kharkov defence, then I will play more cautious and take baby steps towards my objectives. If I notice the german player having a passive defence, I will be considerably more aggressive, all in the hopes of making him aggressive. Why? Because it's a lot easier to defend the territory east of Kharkov then around Krasno! I'd rather fight the panzers any day around Kharkov then around Krasno, which would be defended by weak cavalry among others.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/25/2009 8:21:14 PM

Avatar47

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Btw SS, are you talking about how to get the Wiking SS panzer div? Soviets need to take Krasnograd, then you get to place them 2 turns later and use them the turn after.

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RE: Defend Krasnograd? - 5/26/2009 12:26:09 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

Lol, overrun junkie. Aren't we all??

quote:

My Kharkov defense needs a lot of troops cause I do so much counterattacking every turn so I need troops to fight with the tanks and more for the hogs.

Problem I see with that defense, is that as the Soviet player, I would simply stop attacking Kharkov, and use my available air strikes (and possibly interdiction) elsewhere. If I notice the german player is in the mood for an aggressive Kharkov defence, then I will play more cautious and take baby steps towards my objectives. If I notice the german player having a passive defence, I will be considerably more aggressive, all in the hopes of making him aggressive. Why? Because it's a lot easier to defend the territory east of Kharkov then around Krasno! I'd rather fight the panzers any day around Kharkov then around Krasno, which would be defended by weak cavalry among others.

The Panzers and mechanized infantry in Kharkov can reach Kraz easily with one wild swoop down the western roads. I had one game where the Soviets left a fixing force of cavalry and infantry in front of Kraz, ten regiments I think or maybe more, which was supposed to tie-up my larger defensive force in a useless position while he aggressively attacked Kharkov with stacks of tanks and stuff. I just swooped all the Panzers and mechanized inf down from Kharkov, brought up Romanian infantry from the south, and the Kraz defenders sallied out in a triple pincer attack to wipe-out the fixing force completely in one turn while I took only 3 steps of damage total in the fighting. The killing was fun and it showed the massive power of the Panzers when supported by the multinational infantry force.

< Message edited by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -- 5/26/2009 12:28:02 AM >

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