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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 8:10:52 PM   
thegreatwent


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quote:

one lawyer or poet per family.



Poetry is like farting, "you can stand your own but hate others" (unknown)


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 8:27:48 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Yep, like road rage people feel free to be jerks.


The 1st time I moved to Jacksonville Florida , they had a number of incidents with a "freeway shooter", someone that instead of exibiting road rage, would simply pull out a hand gun and pop the offender. Despite all the horror and evilness of the acts, it did produce one positive side affect. Suddenly all the drivers became very polite. "No please, go ahead", "no after you". No cutting off in traffic, no lone digits of anger, just amazingly good manners. They eventually caught the shooter and things went to hell again, as per normal. It gave me a lot of "food for thought".

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Post #: 92
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 9:22:33 PM   
RevRick


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From: Thomasville, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Yep, like road rage people feel free to be jerks.


The 1st time I moved to Jacksonville Florida , they had a number of incidents with a "freeway shooter", someone that instead of exibiting road rage, would simply pull out a hand gun and pop the offender. Despite all the horror and evilness of the acts, it did produce one positive side affect. Suddenly all the drivers became very polite. "No please, go ahead", "no after you". No cutting off in traffic, no lone digits of anger, just amazingly good manners. They eventually caught the shooter and things went to hell again, as per normal. It gave me a lot of "food for thought".


Dragging out crusty old Curmudgeon hat...

I think it was Heinlein who wrote something to the effect: An armed society is, by nature, a polite society.

Putting curmudgeon hat back in closet.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 9:23:48 PM   
Anthropoid


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Seems to work pretty well in Switzerland!

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 9:23:54 PM   
Terminus


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That has never been true before, and it certainly isn't today.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 9:27:57 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That has never been true before, and it certainly isn't today.


Actually I've seen stats that suggest it is true today, though wouldn't speculate about before. Counties and municipalities in the U.S. where gun ownership for homeowners is basically required (else they smack you with higher insurance or something). The numbers I've seen indicate that such counties/municipalities have significantly lower home breakin rates, as well as lower rates of violent crime and gun homicides. It is of course confounded by many factors, such as these communities being generally suburban upper middle-class neighborhoods that are remote from impoverished neighborhoods, but IIRC comparisons with demographically similar social groups that do not have the home-gun ownership requirements still reveals the same difference = lower crime ("more polite?") in the "armed" societies.

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The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 9:47:11 PM   
Terminus


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And for every statistic you post to support that misguided view, I can point you to 10 idiots who trip on the feeling of power that carrying a firearm around gives them, and lord it over the unarmed people around them. Wake up and smell the cordite.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 10:53:02 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And for every statistic you post to support that misguided view, I can point you to 10 idiots who trip on the feeling of power that carrying a firearm around gives them, and lord it over the unarmed people around them. Wake up and smell the cordite.


Perhaps that's true in an unarmed socialist paradise, but it kinda goes away in a place where everyone else has a firearm too, and some of those people are better shots and have bigger guns than yours. I've never seen anyone lord it over others that he has a gun. In most places I've lived , people would just assume that you don't know if you have one.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 11:04:01 PM   
Terminus


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What "unarmed socialist paradise" is that? Hmmm? A dig at Denmark, maybe? There's far, far, far too many guns on the streets of this country already. It's become a badge of honour among idiots to carry them when they go out at night.

Oh, and if "everyone" has guns, and "everyone" is so "polite" in America, why is there even one shooting death per year in your country? Why hasn't it become a peaceful Heaven on Earth?

Nobody but the police and military should own firearms.

I'll sign off now, before I type something I'll regret.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 11:21:00 PM   
JWE

 

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Talking about different countries reminds me of what the old man said:

Heaven is where:
The lovers are Italian
The cooks are French
The mechanics are German
The police are English and
It's run by the Swiss

Hell is where:
The lovers are Swiss
The cooks are English
The mechanics are French
The police are German, and
It's run by the Italians

So everybody has some good things and some not so good things.

< Message edited by JWE -- 5/24/2009 2:23:55 AM >


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/23/2009 11:21:40 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What "unarmed socialist paradise" is that? Hmmm? A dig at Denmark, maybe? There's far, far, far too many guns on the streets of this country already. It's become a badge of honour among idiots to carry them when they go out at night.

Oh, and if "everyone" has guns, and "everyone" is so "polite" in America, why is there even one shooting death per year in your country? Why hasn't it become a peaceful Heaven on Earth?

Nobody but the police and military should own firearms.

I'll sign off now, before I type something I'll regret.


No dig at Denmark specifically, more like Europe in general. The biggest problem , is that most of our bigger cities, such as NYC,Boston and Washington DC have had gun bans for many years. NYC banned guns in the 1920's. Guess where most of the shootings occur? Shooting don't often occur in smaller towns, despite Hollywoods attempts to portray otherwise.

I wasn't trying to make this a political thread, I was simply making an observation about an experince I once had. Forgive me for using my own experinces as a reference, but they are the only ones that I have. I'm not trying to convert you, or anyone else T. I'm very familar with your views, as I know that you are with mine. I'd like to think that we are both adults and can agree to disgree.


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/24/2009 2:26:56 AM   
vettim89


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To get this thread back on track:

WWII was a war imbued with and by racism. As far as the PTO goes, both sides racist attitudes toward each other could be directly implicated in the causes of the war. From the American side (as largely it was FDR's foreign policy that led to WWII), the Japanese were looked down upon as a bespecled race of little people who would easily be defeated. They discounted the Japanese success in China and Manchuria because they were fighting other Asians. Perhaps if FDR understood the real potential of the Japanese military he may have tried a more cautious approach in the pre-war diplomacy. The Japanese of course viewed themselves as a superior race. Even those in Japan that knew of the industrial might of the USA still believed Japan could win the war through their superior fighting spirit. These attitudes not only caused the war but affected its conduct. The US used weapons and techniques that were unique to the PTO. Has it ever struck anyone that the only forces the US made widespread use of Napalm against were Asian armies?

The USA was a deeply racist nation from its outset. The kidnapping, transport and enslavment of Africans and the genocide of the Native American population ocured in a nation founded on the premise that all MEN are created equal. What they really meant was that all educated caucasian men were created equal. I know people outside of the USA look at these things and wonder how we can reconcile this with our founding principles. The truth is we can't. We don't deny it, we just avoid it. At least we are doing better in popular culture as 50 years ago Hollywood routinely produced movies depicting Native Americans as blood thirsty savages and the US Calvary as the saviours of man kind.

WWII was the beginning of the Civil Rights movement. Unfortunately racist attitudes pervaded most of the American culture at the time but the achievements of units made up of what we now call African-Americans started the change. At the war's beginning, non-caucasians were considered stupid and untrainable. They were put in service units because it was beleived that they couldn't do anything else. To a certain extent I think that black/negro/african-american casualties were considered to be less important than caucasian. Shame on us.

Lastly, Truman does not get enough credit for intergrating the Armed Forces. Perhaps it was those white men that returned from the service where they trained and fought beside men of color than began the changes in attitude in this country. The Civil Rights ACt of 1965 is the landmark piece of legislation in the effort to bring true equality to the USA. Truman could never have gotten that bill through Congress, but congress could not stop the intergration fo the Armed Forces. Truman and later Eisenhower were truly men of moral courage to go against the deeply ingrained but wrong racist attitudes that pervaded the country at the time

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/24/2009 3:17:51 AM   
PeteG662


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So does anyone get to attend this ceremony as it appears to be in a somewhat restricted area?

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/24/2009 6:26:44 AM   
thegreatwent


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quote:

Nobody but the police and military should own firearms.


I enjoy my antique firearms Ironically it was in Europe that I started my collection. But I don't think they are very much the firearms you were thinking of restricting. So far as I know nobody has used a black powder weapon in a drive by At least this century I must add

< Message edited by thegreatwent -- 5/24/2009 6:51:49 AM >


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/24/2009 9:00:23 AM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

quote:

Nobody but the police and military should own firearms.


I enjoy my antique firearms Ironically it was in Europe that I started my collection. But I don't think they are very much the firearms you were thinking of restricting. So far as I know nobody has used a black powder weapon in a drive by At least this century I must add

ok
NO GUN POLICY ARGUMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/24/2009 5:13:37 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

quote:

Nobody but the police and military should own firearms.


I enjoy my antique firearms Ironically it was in Europe that I started my collection. But I don't think they are very much the firearms you were thinking of restricting. So far as I know nobody has used a black powder weapon in a drive by At least this century I must add

ok
NO GUN POLICY ARGUMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!




BOBO? Are you feeling alright? Sounds like you need to go out and shoot something.

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Post #: 106
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/25/2009 3:18:56 AM   
whippleofd

 

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Service members were doing the best job they could. Many died doing what they were ordered.

Some of you will find any excuse to take a thread in a direction that is unwarranted.

<on rant>
While you're out doing whatever you are doing tomorrow I hope you don't think, "Boy I really zinged that guy in that online conversation". I do hope you do think, "Deadly 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster remembered. Maybe for just one day this year I'll stop by the VA hospital and change some sheets, mop a floor or take out the trash."

And to think I spent 20 years of my life to protect some of Y'all's freedoms and this is how you use them.
A few of you are simply SNAFU'd and would do well to get over yourself, your not as important as you think you are.
<off rant>

Whipple

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1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
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Post #: 107
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/25/2009 3:01:56 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipple

Service members were doing the best job they could. Many died doing what they were ordered.

Some of you will find any excuse to take a thread in a direction that is unwarranted.

<on rant>
While you're out doing whatever you are doing tomorrow I hope you don't think, "Boy I really zinged that guy in that online conversation". I do hope you do think, "Deadly 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster remembered. Maybe for just one day this year I'll stop by the VA hospital and change some sheets, mop a floor or take out the trash."

And to think I spent 20 years of my life to protect some of Y'all's freedoms and this is how you use them.
A few of you are simply SNAFU'd and would do well to get over yourself, your not as important as you think you are.
<off rant>

Whipple


Sorry for offending you Whipple. That was not my intent. And I see your point.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/26/2009 7:31:13 AM   
IronWarrior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

BTW, as far as I'm aware, "black" is how the black community in America refers to themselves these days, while "colored" is very much a word of the past. Before the war, it was "negro". Things move on.

As long as nobody starts using the very ugly six-letter word beginning with "n" and ending with "r", then screaming about racism sounds very hollow. "Racism" itself is another very ugly word that's used far too much.


Stephen Colbert: "Shouldn't we pay no attention to color? For instance I don't see people's color... like people tell me-"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "You don't see my color? I'm black."

Stephen Colbert: "Excuse me?"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "I'm black."

Stephen Colbert: "I'll take your word for it...I don't... I'm color blind when I talk to other American citizens- or people from Washington D.C."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "You white?"

Stephen Colbert: "People tell me I'm white, but I don't percieve myself as a white person, or you as a black woman.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "How do you percieve yourself?"

Stephen Colbert: "As an American."

"I also have alot of trouble figuring out if someone's gay. I have terrible 'gaydar'. You're not gay are you?"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "No. No."

Stephen Colbert: "Me neither."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "But you shouldn't ask anybody."

Stephen Colbert: "Why not? that's the only way I can tell... I've been burned too many times by coming on to the ladies and find out it's a 'no-go' from the start."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "Well, frankly..."

Stephen Colbert: "Do I come off as gay? 'Cause sometimes people call me 'bookish' and I think that's code."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "You really think people think that?"

Stephen Colbert: "No, I mean people very often will call me like 'slender' or 'willowy' and I think that's code-"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "But never gay?."

Stephen Colbert: "No- they've yelled that too."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "What do you yell back?"

Stephen Colbert: "I'm not... that's what I yell. I mean I'm usually crying, but..."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "Isn't that terrible to stereotype people based on-"

Stephen Colbert: "It is, If I may change the subject-"

"You helped write the Federal Sexual Harassment guidelines during the Carter administration, correct?"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "Indeed!"

Stephen Colbert: "Then why are you undressing me with your eyes congresswoman?"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "You flatter yourself sir!"

Stephen Colbert: "You raped me with your eyes just then."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "What makes you think that I find you attractive at all?"

Stephen Colbert: "I don't know if you're finding me attractive-"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "I didn't find you gay..."

Stephen Colbert: "Well what's the other option?"

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "The other option is to look at you and see a... plain vanilla man whose asking me questions."

Stephen Colbert: "I thought I was 'French' vanilla... congresswoman?."

Eleanor Holmes Norton: "You don't see me arguing with that."

Stephen Colbert: "Thank you for taking time away from not voting to talk to me."






< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 5/26/2009 7:37:40 AM >


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/26/2009 12:54:28 PM   
m10bob


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Native Americans?............................Hmm......

During the American Revolution...one of my relatives, George Rogers Clark captured Fort Vincennes from the British and thereby gained the "Northwest Territory" for the Continental Congress. The Congress was bankrupt, so they gave a lot of land west of the Appalachions to veterans.
William Arnold Clark was in George Rogers Clarks' army, (and was one of his cousins).He was my great-grandfather, 5 times removed..
His son,(same name) was a member of Captain Tom Scott's Indiana Mounted Riflemen, and his unit fought at the battle of Tippecanoe against Native Americans (Miami, mostly)..This is considered by many as the first land battle of the War of 1812..

William's son Arnold, married a Piankeshaw,(member of the Miamis), and her father fought against her now dad-in-law at Tippecanoe..
This would be no stranger than if I had married a German girl..

So, the off-spring of Arnold Clark and Sofia Torman(Anglo name given to her)were 50% "native-American"..
This was still on the so-called prairie where nobody asked questions about race, but with the red man being moved west,(by force), the government gave the Miami's the option of going west(leaving Indiana), or assimilating and (magically) becoming white, and giving up all rights to consider themselves "native American"..

My family remained, (what better credentials to call themselves native Hoosiers, both indiginous, and whites who had captured Indiana for the nation?)

So, Robert Henderson Clark begat my grandfather, and by the time my dad came along, he never knew he was part "native-American"......
While my grandfather was still a dark reddish-brown skin, with jet black hair and a very prominant nose, and dark brown eyes, we never questioned why I was more "nordic", with blonde hair, blue eyes..
I still have the high forehead and prominent curved nose.
As an investigator with some time on my hands after DEROS, I started looking up my family tree and learned all these details, (and a lot more).
Few of us, (especially in America), can claim to be "pure" of any race in particular


< Message edited by m10bob -- 5/26/2009 12:56:21 PM >


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Post #: 110
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/26/2009 4:24:46 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Native Americans?............................Hmm......

During the American Revolution...one of my relatives, George Rogers Clark captured Fort Vincennes from the British and thereby gained the "Northwest Territory" for the Continental Congress. The Congress was bankrupt, so they gave a lot of land west of the Appalachions to veterans.
William Arnold Clark was in George Rogers Clarks' army, (and was one of his cousins).He was my great-grandfather, 5 times removed..
His son,(same name) was a member of Captain Tom Scott's Indiana Mounted Riflemen, and his unit fought at the battle of Tippecanoe against Native Americans (Miami, mostly)..This is considered by many as the first land battle of the War of 1812..

William's son Arnold, married a Piankeshaw,(member of the Miamis), and her father fought against her now dad-in-law at Tippecanoe..
This would be no stranger than if I had married a German girl..

So, the off-spring of Arnold Clark and Sofia Torman(Anglo name given to her)were 50% "native-American"..
This was still on the so-called prairie where nobody asked questions about race, but with the red man being moved west,(by force), the government gave the Miami's the option of going west(leaving Indiana), or assimilating and (magically) becoming white, and giving up all rights to consider themselves "native American"..

My family remained, (what better credentials to call themselves native Hoosiers, both indiginous, and whites who had captured Indiana for the nation?)

So, Robert Henderson Clark begat my grandfather, and by the time my dad came along, he never knew he was part "native-American"......
While my grandfather was still a dark reddish-brown skin, with jet black hair and a very prominant nose, and dark brown eyes, we never questioned why I was more "nordic", with blonde hair, blue eyes..
I still have the high forehead and prominent curved nose.
As an investigator with some time on my hands after DEROS, I started looking up my family tree and learned all these details, (and a lot more).
Few of us, (especially in America), can claim to be "pure" of any race in particular



My Uncle Paul did a bunch of geneaology stuff years ago. Seems we had a great-granny (Jeddy May[sp?] Owens) who was on the Dawson (or is it Dawes?) Roster, the list of Cherokee who were made to walk the Trail of Tears.

Course my Mom knew this stuff, having grown up with a half-Cherokee prostitute mother who died of alcoholism, though personally I never did blame her; what do you expect the half-assimilated, "half-breed" descendants of a once-proud refugee culture to be like after all? Noble and well-balanced?

So that is the relatively disadvantaged context into which I emerged. Never counted but I'd guess easily half my maternal relatives are either in prison or dead, mostly from suicide. But if you ask anyone I'm "white" and embody all the "advantage" that that label implies. No doubt that large fractions of Americans fit into a similar comparison.

Amazing how efforts to 'erase' bias and stereotype can actually emboss it a standardized Federal code.

Heh . . . and there he is, good 'ole Andrew Jackson staring up at me from the $20 notes in my wallet . . . yeah, "justice" can take a very long time to unfold.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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