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AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 4:00:43 AM

Snydly

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After participating and viewing the Simple Survey thread, I have noticed quite a few players saying they will never play another Human in this game.

My experience with the Board game is extensive from about 1985 to 1995. This game I always played against People and that is when things are truly the most dynamic and full filling. I feel that those who will not challenge another person with this game will truly lose out on two things: the frustration of adapting to poor dice rolls, and having to adapt your defense and offense to an opponents move(Invasion, Offensive Chip, etc.). Planning the best offensive and seeing it fail is truly a humbling event. Just be aware that we have all experienced this ... and we all will continue to experience this. Remember its just a game, but playing another person will bring much more wild results than anything a computer opponent can ever pull off on another person.

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person and then experience a poor AI system or lack lustre one, they will only ever know the game as a historical replay. They will never experience the true nuttiness that Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito inflicted on this world. The unknown is to be savored and adapted to.

Good Luck in your game play.

Post #: 1

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 5:22:08 AM

sapper_astro

Posts: 300
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Snydly

After participating and viewing the Simple Survey thread, I have noticed quite a few players saying they will never play another Human in this game.

My experience with the Board game is extensive from about 1985 to 1995. This game I always played against People and that is when things are truly the most dynamic and full filling. I feel that those who will not challenge another person with this game will truly lose out on two things: the frustration of adapting to poor dice rolls, and having to adapt your defense and offense to an opponents move(Invasion, Offensive Chip, etc.). Planning the best offensive and seeing it fail is truly a humbling event. Just be aware that we have all experienced this ... and we all will continue to experience this. Remember its just a game, but playing another person will bring much more wild results than anything a computer opponent can ever pull off on another person.

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person and then experience a poor AI system or lack lustre one, they will only ever know the game as a historical replay. They will never experience the true nuttiness that Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito inflicted on this world. The unknown is to be savored and adapted to.

Good Luck in your game play.

Snydly, I remember when the balloon originally went up on this game back on the ADG website. I said I would want a half decent AI as I will not have the time to setup games with people very often. I, too, have played the game for many years.

It almost seems like the anti AI crew are becoming worried. I am unsure as to the reason why. The PBEM, net play, etc option is already a for sure part of the game. Adding an AI is an excellent move, the better the AI, the more it will be an advantage. As you say, if the AI is rubbish, it will turn players off. Don't give it a horrid AI then!

Another advantage to a decent AI; Players that begin with it may well turn to playing against other humans. If you do not have an AI, then none of these players will ever play another human. It will be a small circle of WiF players that eventually get snuffed out, instead of an increasing number that started off with the AI and moved up from there. You and I both know it is a somewhat complex strategy game, especially with all the addons over the years.

I put forward that the AI is imperative for WiF. If the AI is successful, then it will only do good things for the franchise. Make sure it is successful. If they only want to play the AI, I do not see how this effects the people who wish to play it another way. If they miss out on something, or perhaps are not interested (lets face it, some of the rules wars with anally retentive morons was never fun, and often dragged on for hours), why is this a concern? The fact that a number of them certainly will try the other ways is what is important surely?

< Message edited by sapper_astro -- 5/26/2009 5:24:34 AM >

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 2

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 6:03:36 AM

csharpmao

Posts: 83
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Hello,

In the Simple Survey thread, I said I would play most of the time versus the AI.
It is not because I prefer to play against a machine, it is a question of time.
When playing with someone else, you must agree to play on a regular basis.
PBEM is a little better, but I think some opponent will not appreciate if I don't play during two weeks.
AI will never complain, even if I don't play during two month, and then play each day during a week.

Of course, I think it more challenging to play versus real people, but I think I'll play only a small part of the game by email, and probably never with NetPlay.

(in reply to sapper_astro)

Post #: 3

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 1:14:20 PM

Harold Haralson

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/24/2004
Status: offline

No or poor AI = no sale for me. I have a copy of the original
ADG program.

I have concerns about some of the modifications that
have been made. I am probably going to wait and see
what the reviews are by other players before I purchase.

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 4

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 4:10:51 PM

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Very good thread gentlemen, I have never played WIF and I am looking forward to the games release. The only board games I used to play were 3rd Reich and Squad Leader which I enjoyed for a while when my son lived at home. I have played many computer war games [WW2 only} some with terrible AI's { AH's 3rd Reich is one of many] Strategic command series has a decent AI namely the newest game in the Pacific theater. But as in all AI's if you find a chink in the armor that the AI cannot handle most players who hate to lose will always exploit it. [thats me] Other players will avoid doing so at a cost of maybe losing the game. For example in Strategic command when the AI led allies invade France, the first wave of the invasion is usually well done but if the Germans drive the allies out of France then the AI falls to pieces sending one unit here and one unit there trying to invade which have no chance of landing or staying in France. This is to me a problem of the AI which has never been solved and may never be. I believe in my heart and soul that the AI will make or break this game, if the AI is decent then so be it, I will play against the computer. Playing solo [against the AI] will IMO open up this game to everyone who plays computer war games who dont have the time for pbem, for hot seat games because no one nearby plays these games, for e-mail etc.[time consuming] or they have always played an AI opponet. I believe some of the above posts are correct that playing against a human opponet whether he or she is good or just competent is a great way to play because you are up against a player who is capable of changing a game plan that didnt work before and also a player improves game by game. Again my final opinion [humble as it is] the AI will make or break this game!

Willy

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 5

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 4:41:37 PM

Mike Parker

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From: Houston TX
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As Willy said I think the issue will be if this game is to have sales it needs to appeal to the gamer that will play all or a vast majority against the AI. Some folks will buy it specifically as a platform to pbem and/or netplay. But any broad appeal will have to come from the folks what will play against the computer.

I will sure give a shot to netplay, pbem I am unsure of, I will wait and see but WiF seems kinda cumbersom to play that way. But I will mostly play against the AI, because as someone says, the AI is not going to wish for my ruination if I take two weeks off, and its not going to have a sick 4 yr old when I want to play on the thursday evening!

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 6

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 5:48:07 PM

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I get tired of you Mike saying what I want to say better than I say it

I think thats what it will come down to, selling this game to the general war gaming players not just to WIF experienced players, not only so Matrix will back this game for years to come because of the number of sales, but because this game is so dynamic that the general public [like me] who have never played a great war game before like this will enjoy this one for many years to come. And to those who like PBEM they will have an infinite more number of players who would be willing to play PBEM with them than there are now.

Willy

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 7

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 8:32:26 PM

Mike Parker

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I thought you said it well Willy, I just wanted to give my 2 cents too!

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 8

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 11:32:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I thought you said it well Willy, I just wanted to give my 2 cents too!

Appreciate it Mike I need your 2 cents, hopefully Matrix hears it and creates a superb AI if possible, I think a decent AI would be quite nice also. If it gets around the gaming world that the finest war game ever conceived is also a computer game with very good graphics, a decent AI, and a interface second to none in the gaming world, and a caring helpful and intuitive programer such as Steve standing with us, this game will take the war gaming people by storm, I feel once this game takes off, we who prefer the AI in games can then concentrate on possibly learning the value of PBEM and playing against human opponents, I believe that newbies such as myself can learn to play a decent game against the AI, then we might be willing to take on other players, there is not a doubt in my mind that a good WIF board game player would rather take on another good WIF player on the computer then to play against someone who has no idea what the game is about or has very little understanding about tactics. I feel you can only improve your game in any forum by playing someone better than you are, and I think the AI could go a long way to help in that area.

Willy

< Message edited by bo -- 5/26/2009 11:38:23 PM >

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 9

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/26/2009 11:49:59 PM

macgregor

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Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/27/2009 12:01:54 AM >

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 10

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 12:33:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

I am assuming Macgregor you are referring to me [very vocal] and as being I did not see a smiley I will answer you, did you actually read the post or just pull out something that annoys you like a few do and dont even try to understand the post or the feelings behind it, [for the sake of an AI] whew I hope the general population does not feel the way you do. Who said anything about waiting ten years thats bull, I will accept any AI that comes out with this game and hope in the future it will be improved if it needs improving, and I doubt that Matrix is counting on you and the hard core WIF gamers for their fortune making in this game, they need everyone Pbem and AI lovers together, WIF and newbies. I for one hope your game wont be delayed not even one day and I do hope you enjoy your game on the 27th of July. You do not usually get into a confrontation with anyone so I guess I hit a raw nerve and for that I appoligize, if anything I have noticed in the last few weeks it is that tension seems to be rising, both from the players who post here and also from Steve who sometimes gives short answers or answers that are tinged with hey I doing the best I can to bring this game to completion.

Willy

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 11

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 1:49:21 AM

macgregor

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It's not that I have any ill-will toward you Willy, and I do not fault you for your desire to have a challenging AI. There is I won't deny, some frustration at waiting for...I'm going to say 10 years(though in fairness, I believe only 6 under Matrix) at least amid this ever-expanding target demographic for wif product #1. I think pbem and a challenging AI are all wonderful ideas that should indeed be added to wif. My limited intellect tells me that Matrix is prioritizing the most work intensive, challenging.....new innovations to the game while leaving the basic necessities to the actual wif player; which is netplay to dead last, sometimes leaving me wondering if it'll even be ready for wif product #1. Though I suppose I can't blame you for asking.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 12

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 3:09:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

It's not that I have any ill-will toward you Willy, and I do not fault you for your desire to have a challenging AI. There is I won't deny, some frustration at waiting for...I'm going to say 10 years(though in fairness, I believe only 6 under Matrix) at least amid this ever-expanding target demographic for wif product #1. I think pbem and a challenging AI are all wonderful ideas that should indeed be added to wif. My limited intellect tells me that Matrix is prioritizing the most work intensive, challenging.....new innovations to the game while leaving the basic necessities to the actual wif player; which is netplay to dead last, sometimes leaving me wondering if it'll even be ready for wif product #1. Though I suppose I can't blame you for asking.

My problem Macgregor is I have never played netplay or PBEM, never in any game, so I guess I rely too much on a good AI, I do hope that netplay is not last in the minds of Matrix, I feel the major problem that Steve has in doing this game is the accurate recreation of this terrific board game to the liking of everyone who will play this game is the knowledge of experience players how this game looks and plays. When a company such as Matrix makes up a game other than a board game they can make all the units historically correct and the maps very accurate, but they can make up any rule as they see fit whether it be movement of air, naval and land or combat tables. Steve does not have that luxury to do that he has to make it almost exactly as the board game [or exactly] rules, maps, and movement, and the slightest mistake will be noted by good WIF boardgamers. Sorry for being longwinded Mac because I know you know all these things. I need to talk about these things because as you know I have no idea what some of the boardgamers are talking about so I rarely comment on game mechanics, so I just generalize about things I want to know about.

Willy

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 13

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 7:59:46 AM

Greywolf

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I second the need for a good AI.

There is a lot of way to play WiF on netplay, PBEM already. What will make and break MWiF will be the AIO (and the AIA for me, so you see I will be patient). Every�minute spent one the AI do far more for the success of the game than every hour spent on graphics or checking if�the program�apply correctly the thousands of rules...

If the AI is bad then the game will be a failure because it will fail to sell to nearly half of the targeted audience. If the AI is good it will be a success because everyone will be happy and the reports will be very nice.

Conceiving a valid and challenging AIO at the strategical level is something that never have been done successfully before. Every other games of this scope I own and play rely heavily on AI cheat, scripts and standard behaviour. Buff the defense on the area the AI US will invade and you will never see it try on anywhere in Europe... Reinforce Singapour and you will sink all the Japanese Navy as they cruise by in small packet ignoring the fact they are repetedly crushed by hundreds of land based bombers...

But if they are successfull on what they have planned on the AI in this game, and I hope they are because I became a great fan of their project. Then this will be a premiere and this could produce a lot of buzz that will help the game sell well, even simply because people will want to try on this AI and see for themselves.

And for the Real Player part, I think a lot of people dont play PBEM/Net because they dont know specific people to play with and are afraid to fall on moron or quiters. WiF is a long game, finishing one wont be fast. So better play with a nice opponent that dont complain, is always avaliable regardless of the time of the day, for as long as you need him, dont quit, dont do suicide attack because he is pissed off or dont play like a fool because he is bored. Finding people to play WiF with isn't so easy, finding people you interact well with, have same level of play and same seriousness about history is even harder (not to speak of agreeing on a set of option to use).

< Message edited by Greywolf -- 5/27/2009 8:02:50 AM >

_____________________________

Lt. Col. Ivan 'Greywolf' Kerensky

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 14

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 12:39:50 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person

Why should anyone be concerned at all about how another player wants to play the game? I find it amusing that there are well-entrenched groups with such pro-AI or anti-AI feelings, or advocate PBEM versus TCP/IP as "the" way to play, or that only certain scenarios and specific game options are worthy of discussion. Not just for WiF but other games too. Matrix has the right idea in providing games that are flexible enough to satisfy most all players.

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 15

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 1:40:11 PM

Mad Russian

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Steve has done legendary work on this project. Thanks for that.

In terms of AI or not........well, you don't need one if you are playing other people. You need at least a competent one if you can't/aren't playing other people. This game without at least a competent AI will definitely hurt sales and ultimately if there is a new and improved version of the game rather than a straight conversion.

I would like to see both done so that the game can gain the kind of support and following from the community that the board game had. The reason 90% of us are even here is because the boardgame was so good.

I'm not concerned if the game is a little delayed. I've waited more than a decade already. Of course I'm as anxious as anybody to get my hands on the computer version but I want it to be as close to the experience as I got playing the original as possible.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 16

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 5:51:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Steve has done legendary work on this project. Thanks for that.

In terms of AI or not........well, you don't need one if you are playing other people. You need at least a competent one if you can't/aren't playing other people. This game without at least a competent AI will definitely hurt sales and ultimately if there is a new and improved version of the game rather than a straight conversion.

I would like to see both done so that the game can gain the kind of support and following from the community that the board game had. The reason 90% of us are even here is because the boardgame was so good.

I'm not concerned if the game is a little delayed. I've waited more than a decade already. Of course I'm as anxious as anybody to get my hands on the computer version but I want it to be as close to the experience as I got playing the original as possible.�

Good Hunting.

MR

Hi MR how are you? I agree with you 100% on your post. Not to change the thread but how will net play work? I know we are not sure about MWIF because its not out even though it has been covered by Steve in post replies, but how about other games that you have played on net play or PBEM. I would imagine that some friends you have played the board game with have either moved away or got married which makes it harder to get a game going in someones home. [just guessing] This might bring back old friends no matter where they live, I understand hot seat just from common sense, but can you give me an example how you would play a friend in another town or city. eg: after one move or more do you send the whole map to the other player, could you please explain the difference between PBEM and net play. Not to take up your time but I am really interested in learning something other than the AI. [nothing against the AI]

Willy

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 17

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/27/2009 6:15:04 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
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From: Appleton, Wisconsin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

I've played at least a dozen WiF games the past 4 years using Vassal, all via PBEM. Met a lot of WiF players all over the world in the process. My Vassal games all proceeded at a faster pace then the local, face-to-face games I've played. I'm sure MWiF will greatly improve the PBEM method, but it's not like any of us with a computer haven't been able to play WiF since Ken Griffiths completed the first WiF mod some 5 years ago? There has also been a dedicated group playing PBEM with Cyberboard. If it wasn't for the AI, what would be the point of spending all this time to make a game hundreds of us are already playing on our computers?

_____________________________

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Post #: 18

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 2:49:11 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I've played at least a dozen WiF games the past 4 years using Vassal, all via PBEM. Met a lot of WiF players all over the world in the process. My Vassal games all proceeded at a faster pace then the local, face-to-face games I've played. I'm sure MWiF will greatly improve the PBEM method, but it's not like any of us with a computer haven't been able to play WiF since Ken Griffiths completed the first WiF mod some 5 years ago? There has also been a dedicated group playing PBEM with Cyberboard. If it wasn't for the AI, what would be the point of spending all this time to make a game hundreds of us are already playing on our computers?

The difference is that all the board game play aids (Vassal, Cyberboard, Zun Tsu, Aide de Camp, etc.) rely on the players to perform all the actions they would in real FTF gaming. They are simply a virtual version of the real game. So if a player goofs a move by moving his units as if it were Fair weather, when in fact it is Rain, or counts the interception range of a plane wrong, or does his production or oiling wrong - then it is up to his opponent to spot all that and ask for redress. The closer these are to meeting over the table, the more likely things can get fixed before everyone gets frustrated. If you use Cyberboard or AdC and exchange moves by email, then goofs can frustrate the game experience to the point where people might rather not play. Plus with the Sequence of Play WiF has, you'd need gawd knows how many emails to complete even one impulse.

But having the game arbitrate all the actual rules and provide shortcuts to the PBEM experience (as currently being showcased in the PBEM thread) are what will give this game its attraction over the virtual play aid programs. Especially for a game as complicated as WiF is.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 19

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 2:59:09 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

I understand hot seat just from common sense, but can you give me an example how you would play a friend in another town or city. eg: after one move or more do you send the whole map to the other player, could you please explain the difference between PBEM and net play. Not to take up your time but I am really interested in learning something other than the AI. [nothing against the AI]

Willy

For Netplay, everyone agrees to meet online at a certain time. They all connect up to a host machine. The host runs the game, but each player can make their moves with their forces whenever appropriate. All players can simultaneously view the current map and the game situation. It is the closest you can come to meeting in person to play the game FTF. The difficulty here is the same as many have expressed above - the more players, the greater the problems in getting everyone together at the appointed time to play.

For PBEM, the game is broken into segments where one side or the other is moving. Once completed, the game file is sent to your opponent, for him to do his next segment. The advantage here is that people can do their moves when local time suits them so PBEM is good when playing someone who lives in a different time zone.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 20

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 3:23:43 AM

macgregor

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I'm grateful everybody didn't jump all over me for expressing my feelings. I think what Steve has accomplished with pbem is probably quite playable and may give the netplay a run for it's money. BTW thank you Cheesehead, but for the reasons mentioned above I will wait for MWiF regardless. My WiF friends are also my concern as they are neither hardcore gamers nor even very much computer literate. They are however, big fans of WiF. It's my desire for a long-distance social experience with my old WiF friends that makes me so anxious over netplay. I can see where depending on people you've only met over the internet to congregate on a regular basis could be problematic. With me I'll be playing with old friends, and not to say problems won't arise with schedules-they always do eventually, but I have every confidence they will be motivated to play several times a week. I realize there's an imperative to have pbem and AI - I want very much for the game to include both. I just figure that netplay should be more of a priority as it's the only way to play WiF like the boardgame. Perhaps it is and I'm wrong. It just seems that of all the ways to play, it's now going to be added under great haste. I just hope it's as well thought out as the rest of the game has been.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 5/28/2009 3:37:36 AM >

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 21

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 3:51:17 AM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I've played at least a dozen WiF games the past 4 years using Vassal, all via PBEM. Met a lot of WiF players all over the world in the process. My Vassal games all proceeded at a faster pace then the local, face-to-face games I've played. I'm sure MWiF will greatly improve the PBEM method, but it's not like any of us with a computer haven't been able to play WiF since Ken Griffiths completed the first WiF mod some 5 years ago? There has also been a dedicated group playing PBEM with Cyberboard. If it wasn't for the AI, what would be the point of spending all this time to make a game hundreds of us are already playing on our computers?

The difference is that all the board game play aids (Vassal, Cyberboard, Zun Tsu, Aide de Camp, etc.) rely on the players to perform all the actions they would in real FTF gaming. They are simply a virtual version of the real game. So if a player goofs a move by moving his units as if it were Fair weather, when in fact it is Rain, or counts the interception range of a plane wrong, or does his production or oiling wrong - then it is up to his opponent to spot all that and ask for redress. The closer these are to meeting over the table, the more likely things can get fixed before everyone gets frustrated. If you use Cyberboard or AdC and exchange moves by email, then goofs can frustrate the game experience to the point where people might rather not play. Plus with the Sequence of Play WiF has, you'd need gawd knows how many emails to complete even one impulse.

But having the game arbitrate all the actual rules and provide shortcuts to the PBEM experience (as currently being showcased in the PBEM thread) are what will give this game its attraction over the virtual play aid programs. Especially for a game as complicated as WiF is.

Yes, I recognize the big improvements MWiF will make to PBEM. I'll be first in line to purchase when it is released. The point I am making is that PBEM with Vassal (and I assume CB) is much easier than most people realize. The best games are with experienced players that don't make many mistakes. But I had the good fortune to have some patient mentors teach me the ropes with Vassal/PBEM and I have, in-turn done, the same with several guys that were willing to learn and had no other opponents nearby. My enjoyment with this method of playing WiF was such that it has been very easy for me to patiently wait for Steve to work his magic, without feeling the need to ask for short-cuts in the process (ie. no AI).

I brought up the question on Devin's WiF list a few weeks back whether or not people felt that they would eschew other forms of WiF after MWiF is released. Most people on that forum seem to think they will continue with the board game, and quite a few Vassal afficianados even believe they will continue with that method. Personall, I think I'm playing my last Vassal/PBEM game right now, but I'll still meet with the local guys once a month for our cardboard and paper game.

Cheers

John

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You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 22

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 5:19:30 AM

brian brian

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WiF is one of the 'prettiest' games around. Maybe it's just been so long since I've had very many other games set up, but the game just looks good with all the multi-colored counters spread out all over the globe. I will always probably play it on the paper maps with a friend and hopefully when I can at WiFCon or similar events. No variety of electronic play will replace the enjoyment of playing the game in person with other people with a similar interest in history. Every time I sit down at a table with WiF spread out on it, I learn something about WWII or current events or some other bit of history or who knows what, and the time involved flies by all too fast.

I don't think there are many people who are completely "anti" having an AI. Clearly people will want one, and anything that gets more people playing WiF is a good thing. For me though, I just want to kick in some money to help support the continuing development of the game. I use CyberBoard in my limited freetime to play some solitaire WiF. I would have been happy to pay for a computerized map and set of counters a long time ago, even without an AI; that could have come later. CyberBoard works pretty good for my purposes, though I still don't use it to play via PBEM despite having plenty of offers to do so from some of the top players of the game, as I don't have daily internet access and/or free time to play the game, with the career I have. So I well understand the people who look forward to an AI to play against to avoid time issues with other people. But CyberBoard still requires a lot of administrative book work on the player's part, and I greatly look forward to this being reduced as much as possible.

[I've been meaning to chime in on the solitaire thread that one shouldn't kid one's self that they will be able to play lots and lots of complete games of WiF when this program comes out. I find I have even less interest in playing out a game after 43-44 or so when playing solitaire than I do on a f-t-f paper game. There are just so many pieces to move that a whole turn begins to take days and days.]

But the original poster is exactly correct, that nothing can compare to pitting your plan against another unpredictable human being. "No plan survives contact with the enemy" is the famous quote about warfare. Steve takes those who doubt the potential of an AI to play this game as a challenge, and I think that is the best response. The AI is seeming to be developed with an eye to having a variety of response options to what the human does, and I think it will be less-than-predictable, for a time anyway (though recall my point about just how many whole games you will be able to ever play). I worry about how well the AI can plan muti-impulse, multi-turn, and even multi-year production/operations/campaigns that are necessary to win the war. This is not a game that can be played well by simply reacting to the enemy, move by move. Real generals lose battles and wars that way. WiF has a subtle way of rewarding the players who are operating with a sound plan. It does have it's quirks in that to win you have to play to the rules system, which rewards certain things more than you might feel is historical.

I think this forum is great and it has been very, very good for the game to have the electronic version done with so much input from actual players.

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 23

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 8:06:35 AM

Greywolf

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And about keeping playing paper WiF and Vassal/PBEM WiF when MWiF will be out I think thoses games will still be played for a simple reason : MWiF wont be exactly like the others WiFs, strategies will be different especially if fighting in the Pacific. Have a look at the China map... and Persia, and Manchouria/USSR border. Plenty of changes here that will change a lot of things.Russo-Japanese and Sino-Japanese war wont be played the same way.

MWiF will be another beast just like Deluxe WiF is not Classic WiF, had a few maps and it change things.

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(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 24

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 3:11:52 PM

lavisj

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I must say that although I was skeptical when I first started PBEM, it has prooved very rewarding. It moved along much faster than I expected, although I still have to have a PBEM game into 43 (at which point I am sure it will slow down just due to the sheer amount of planes). But it has been moving at the same pace or even faster than my FtF group has.
I do prefer Netplay though as you gain the social aspect with it, and also it moves even faster. But a mixture of PBEM and netplay is probably the best. After all, those CW and US navals can take forever especially in the late game, and there is no real need for the oponent to be there, especially with a program like MWIF that will remove the trivial mistakes we all make. Netplay will become preferable for all the air and land combat sequence. So if the program allows to play the same game sometimes as PBEM and sometime as Netplay (which I think it does), then it will be wonderfull.

Jerome

< Message edited by lavisj -- 5/28/2009 4:16:35 PM >

(in reply to Greywolf)

Post #: 25

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 3:33:12 PM

brian brian

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I think there will be some nostalgia for the original Asian map, but not much. The war there is dull and slow and hardly very realistic. Looking forward to trying it out in a whole new way. But I have a hard time seeing the space for a full sized Pacific, China, Siberia, and India. Maybe with a combination of the relevant map segments in East Asia combined with a sort of 'off-map' system using the old map. Yes, yes, I think a couple new ink cartridges and a package of cardstock are in order soon...

(in reply to lavisj)

Post #: 26

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 3:55:08 PM

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See what you started Snydly, great thread, come on people keep it going even though I cant get involved [lack of net play experience] I learn from these discussions as long as everyones opinion is respected by all posters.

Willy

(in reply to Snydly)

Post #: 27

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 4:07:56 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

I do prefer Netplay though as you gain the social aspect with it, and also it moves even faster. But a mixture of PBEM and netplay is probably the best. After all, those CW and US navals can take forever especially in the late game, and there is no real need for the oponent to be there, especially with a program like MWIF that will remove the trivial mistakes we all make. Netplay will become preferable for all the air and land combat sequence. So if the program allows to play the same game sometimes as PBEM and sometime as Netplay (which I think it does), then it will be wonderfull.

Jerome

I think exactly the same thing.

(in reply to lavisj)

Post #: 28

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 8:46:11 PM

Sewerlobster

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj
I do prefer Netplay though as you gain the social aspect with it, and also it moves even faster. But a mixture of PBEM and netplay is probably the best. After all, those CW and US navals can take forever especially in the late game, and there is no real need for the oponent to be there, especially with a program like MWIF that will remove the trivial mistakes we all make. Netplay will become preferable for all the air and land combat sequence. So if the program allows to play the same game sometimes as PBEM and sometime as Netplay (which I think it does), then it will be wonderfull.
Jerome

I think exactly the same thing.

Sadly with my work schedule and other commitments NetPlay will be impossible and PBEM would be too sparodic from me to conscientiously commit to. If the AI proves lacking, it'll be all solitaire for me. So I'm all for a fully fleshed AI.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 29

RE: AI vs. Real Player - 5/28/2009 9:45:22 PM

obermeister

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/24/2009
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PBEM seems a much more practical way to play. Otherwise, when Commonwealth takes a naval, everyone can take a 30 minute break.

What would be cool, and I don't know if this will be allowed, if it's possible to switch between PBEM and netplay mode sometimes.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)

Post #: 30