RE: 1792 No frills PBEM

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/24/2009 11:34:05 PM

barbarossa2

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Concerning the "insurrection" debate. I don't care what we do, I will do whatever everyone here wants. However, vanilla is what I thought we were playing. It keeps record keeping simpler.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 1:09:40 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

France is disappointed in the attempted acquisition of Denmark by our good neighbours in Britain.

As a sign of your disappointment with Britain you immediately launched a sneak attack with Spain against Denmark and started to sink the Danish Navy.

We had to destroy the village to save it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Denying Sweden these lands is not allowing them a full voice in European affairs, and France feels strongly that the move on Denmark by British troops should be reconsidered.

By a full voice in European affairs for Sweden dont you really mean 2 large fleets with which to threaten British security?

Also is Swedens land forces being swelled by 50,000 additional men a benefit or detriment to Prussian and Russian security?

Just curious.

< Message edited by Mus -- 7/25/2009 1:26:21 AM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 3:28:13 AM

barbarossa2

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It was made clear to the king of France that several nations supported Swedish acquisition of Norway. I won't say who they are now.

Let it be noted that France was, in fact the last nation to step foot on ANY minor nation's soil. The illegal acquisition of the Danish navy (a massive massive imbalancer of the balance of oceanic power) should have been okayed with the international community.

Please explain to me how destroying something which someone illegally taking without permission and won't ever be returned is wrong?

I never got notice from anyone that they were even against Swedish acquisition of Denmark.

Again, I would have supported British acquisition of the United Provinces, Swedish acquistion of Denmark, and Spanish acquistion of Portugal. I was certainly not dictating this, but I was supporting it. I even offered Britain help in moving the United Provinces into their column solidly. I would say one fleet acquisition per nation is fair. Not all three in the hands of one. Please note that I am not even interested in expanding MY fleet with any minor nation's ships. I was happy working to give them to others. I just wanted to make sure that Sweden has a fair share and wouldn't spend the next 23 years as the Baltic whipping boy. I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't know what to say now that Sweden's ability to have an equal role in affairs has been so compromised.

The claim that "Sweden could use Danish fleets to threaten Britain" is interesting. Because I have played Sweden, and I would say that a Britain with Danish fleets is more dangerous to Sweden than a Sweden with Danish fleets is to Britain. Is Britain the only nation which is deserving of naval security?

Are you saying that 5 or 6 British fleets vs 1 Swedish fleet is "fair"? I can't see that. If the fleets needed to stay neutral, then we could have negotiated that as well. Not sieze them before discussing things with people who have an obvious interest in the matter.

I am backing Prussia against Sweden if 50,000 blood thirsty Swedes come crashing down on Berlin with their single fleet of long boats, totally exposing their rear and flank to Russian and British attack. But I won't have to. Because they won't do it. Perhaps a Sweden with fair access to enough minor provinces for its own expansion which would put it on par with other nations in its region is all it would take to turn it into a nation which doesn't feel threatened and instable. I don't recall Sweden threatening anyone. As far as I am aware, it was interested in the acquisition of Denmark. It certainly hasn't expressed an interest in invading Russia or Prussia! Or even Britain for that matter.

And I sure as hell don't want to go to Britain.

I was for a strong Sweden, a strong Prussia stretching from the Rhine to East Prussia, a strong Austria, a stable Ottoman Empire, peace in the East, and an inviolable Britain. Sue me.

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 7/25/2009 3:42:23 AM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 4:37:01 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Please explain to me how destroying something which someone illegally taking without permission and won't ever be returned is wrong?

Well you claim benevolence on one hand, then when things dont go your way you help to destroy the object in dispute. If the object wasnt a threat to anybody... what reason is there to remove it as a factor?

Kinda obvious isnt it? Your actions prove the Danish Navy is a threat.

Ive been in Kingmakers shoes before (twice), and I said several turns ago, were I in the same position I would attack Denmark right now. Looks like Great Britain saw the strategic situation in the same way.

Also your choice of words is very odd. Illegal? According to what law? Without permission? Whos permission was needed for a sovereign nation to take military action against a perceived threat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

I was for a strong Sweden...

Actually Sweden in control of Denmark still isnt "strong" per se, its just capable of using its fleets in combination with other countries to threaten Great Britain and still weak enough to be bullied into doing so even if they didnt want to.

It just reinforces my point that the reason why it wasnt allowed is because it was a threat.

I enjoy the spirited public debate, although I find the absence of Sweden, Turkey and Spain in any public discourse or private diplomatic negotiations very odd.

< Message edited by Mus -- 7/25/2009 4:47:52 AM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 7:09:29 AM

and2

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Turn 14 posted

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 7:47:31 AM

and2

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The smelly Danish privateers that were disrupting the peace and trade have now been given a decisive blow by the Coruna fleet, lead by Admiral Don Grandebrig. The remeaning part of these maurauders were seen fleeing in their demasted rowing boats! Never again shall the waters of our beloved kings nation see the protestant heathens!

Our most beloved brothers, the grand Portugese people, have now come into the sanctuary of the Spanish kingdom. We welcome their wise decision and applaud the wise leadership of Maria I, House of Braganza.

The First Spanish army, having lead a succesfull campaign in North Africa under the now regrettiably deceased King Franck, are now under the leadership of General Don Ricardos. In memory of our lost king we have launched a surpise attack against the Moroccan pirate sanctuary, to complete his grand vision of a orderly and peacefull North Africa.

The new Spanish King Juan XVII has now implemented a full cabinet reshuffle and can announce that newly appointed ambassadors are traveling towards all eurpean capitals and looks forward to renewing the eternal friendship between Spain and our fellow European empires and kingdoms.

Concerning the matter Britain's attack on Denmark, we ourself have not been party to any negotiations on the ownership of the now sunken danish rowing boat fleet! or their lands in the protestant north. However we do not anymore regard this matter as a concern to the Spanish house of Bourbon. We are certain that our beloved and eternal friends Great Britain, France and Sweden will resolve this matter to the agreement of all concerned parties.

Signed King Juan XVII y sensalosa con magnifico ill fantastico

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 7:56:35 AM

Mus

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I dont know who this Don guy is - BUT I LIKE HIS STYLE!!!

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 9:28:57 AM

Kingmaker

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HiHi

Err, before this debate gets too hairy, can I remind folks that, as we all know, England DoW Denmark means they will not get the Danish fleet, minor powers Navies & Armies only come over through Protectorate status, therefore the French & Spainish attacks on Denmark should rather be seen as a way of gaining Navel experiance & GP.

Oh, and as was always intened should it become nessessery for England to attack Denmark, Sweden will (subject to certian minor conditions) recieve Norway, Trod'heim & Copenhagen at the end of Hostilities.

All the Best
Peter

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 10:27:54 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

Err, before this debate gets too hairy...

Aww cmon man dont be such a buzzkill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

...can I remind folks that, as we all know, England DoW Denmark means they will not get the Danish fleet, minor powers Navies & Armies only come over through Protectorate status, therefore the French & Spainish attacks on Denmark should rather be seen as a way of gaining Navel experiance & GP.

In regard to Glory and Naval Experience, thats apparent. However, in regard to the armed forces of minors, if you make a protectorate of a conquered minor all their forces still in existence flock to your banner.

I dont know if thats widely known or not.

Im still waiting on a simple explanation as to how attacking Denmark was "illegal" and also who exactly England needed "permission" from in order to be allowed to do it.

< Message edited by Mus -- 7/25/2009 10:41:57 AM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 10:32:58 AM

Kingmaker

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HiHi

Well it certainly is to players in the 1st game as it was discused at some length when I quiried how I had suddenly aquired Denmark as a Russian protecterate, the bit about the Danish navy being particularly pertanent.

All the Best
Peter

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 10:37:55 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

Well it certainly is to players in the 1st game as it was discused at some length when I quiried how I had suddenly aquired Denmark as a Russian protecterate, the bit about the Danish navy being particularly pertanent.

I hadnt thought you made a protectorate of a conquered minor, just got them as a protectorate normally when Sweden declared war on Mecklenberg or something making them nervous.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 10:55:30 AM

Kingmaker

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HiHi

No, as was discused in the 1st 'Big War' game, the point being that if you conquere a Minor you do not get their armed forces and subsiquently making the minor a protectopate will not bring any fleets still roaming around over to your side (Armies/corps just disapeare of the map once a minor is conquered).

All the Best
Peter

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Post #: 282

RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 11:26:03 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

No, as was discused in the 1st 'Big War' game, the point being that if you conquere a Minor you do not get their armed forces and subsiquently making the minor a protectopate will not bring any fleets still roaming around over to your side (Armies/corps just disapeare of the map once a minor is conquered).

Thats odd. I have witnessed it firsthand in singleplayer. I know the armies/corps disappear but fleets are not treated the same.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 3:52:40 PM

barbarossa2

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(of course it isn't illegal!)...it's all just rhetoric. It's a game! Probably the best game I have ever played in my life. Thank God for CoG:EE. LOL

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 7/25/2009 5:06:55 PM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 5:07:06 PM

barbarossa2

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However, in the spirit of the game, I will direct you to perhaps the single most influential writer on the laws of war.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Grotius):

Hugo Grotius (also known as Huig de Groot or Hugo de Groot; 10 April 1583 � 28 August 1645) worked as a jurist in the Dutch Republic. With Francisco de Vitoria and Alberico Gentili he laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law. He was also a philosopher, theologian, Christian apologist, playwright, and poet.

De jure belli ac pacis libri tres (On the Law of War and Peace: Three books) was first published by Hugo Grotius in 1625, dedicated to Grotius' current patron, Louis XIII. The treatise advances a system of principles of natural law, which are held to be binding on all people and nations regardless of local custom. The work is divided into three books:

Book I advances his conception of war and of natural justice, arguing that there are some circumstances in which war is justifiable.

Book II identifies three 'just causes' for war: self-defense, reparation of injury, and punishment; Grotius considers a wide variety of circumstances under which these rights of war attach and when they do not.

Book III takes up the question of what rules govern the conduct of war once it has begun; influentially, Grotius argued that all parties to war are bound by such rules, whether their cause is just or not.
The arguments of this work constitute a theory of just war. Roughly, the second book takes up questions of jus ad bellum (justice in the resort to war) and the third, questions of jus in bello (justice in the conduct of war). The way that Grotius conceived of these matters had, together with Francisco de Vitoria's De potestate civili, a profound influence on the tradition after him and on the later formulation of international law.

Britain's war on Denmark was illegal (and so was everyone else's war on a minor in this game--including my invasion of Piedmont).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 7/25/2009 5:09:48 PM >

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 10:02:12 PM

Mus

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I know a lot about self defense law as it applies to individuals in a US jurisdiction.

In my state the basic test for using deadly force is what is referred to as the "reasonable man" test. That is, in the circumstances as subjectively perceived by the person using force, was there a "reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished."

Applying that kind of theory to States I believe removing the Danish and Dutch fleets from play makes a ton of sense from the British perspective. In fact I would go so far as to say its the only justifiable war against a minor in the game thus far. All the rest are self evidently power grabs.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/25/2009 11:05:50 PM

barbarossa2

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You should be a lawyer Mus.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/26/2009 6:26:25 AM

and2

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Sweden and Prussia missing before I can combine.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/26/2009 3:49:15 PM

barbarossa2

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I am supposed to tell you guys that Montesaurus told me his computer problems should be worked out soon. The repair shop has determined that for some reason his attachments were being stripped from his emails and they said they should have it back to him by Monday.

Man. I am telling you... COMPUTERS!!!!

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Post #: 289

RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/27/2009 12:44:15 AM

Mus

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What the heck is taking Prussia and Sweden so long this turn?

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/27/2009 5:06:31 AM

MorningDew

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Travel...just returned. Will get moves out in the AM.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/27/2009 2:08:54 PM

MorningDew

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Sweden sent

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/27/2009 10:10:24 PM

Mus

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Anyone heard from Prussia?

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/27/2009 11:01:09 PM

montesaurus

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Hi Guys,
Wanted to give you my update. I'm presently sitting in a public library and accessing their computer.
I discovered that my ISP provider(through the computer repair shop) was stripping the files I would try to send via my earthlink internet mail. I discovered that I can send the files without any problem by accessing the nofrills hotmail site we've been sending the turns to, and sending from it!
But, after I drove home with my computer and tried to turn it on it would not turn on! Talk about frustrating. I drove back to the computer shop and they are also unable to make the computer come back on, after making sure nothing had shaken loose. So, I will have to send the computer back to the place I bought it from to get it repaired under the warranty.

Needless to say, I'm really PO'd about the computer right now. I think I'm going to go ahead and purchase a laptop, and would like anyone to offer me suggestions as to what they would recommend. Which laptop seems to work well with COGEE! Any suggestions would be appreciated.
For the next few turns I will have to have Barbarossa do my turns till I can get a laptop, or get my computer back.
In the meantime, i will try to get to the library as frequently as I can to answer emails, and keep in touch with players.
Regards,
Monte

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/28/2009 5:06:30 PM

and2

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Got Prussia turn, have mailed Britain, since I need the right files to combine. Hopefully can combine the turn tonight gmt +1

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/28/2009 6:45:34 PM

montesaurus

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Hi Chindits!
I borrowed a friends computer and redid turn 14. Please us it!
'thnks

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/28/2009 7:34:02 PM

and2

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Sure Monte :)

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/29/2009 6:54:28 AM

and2

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Turn 15 posted

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/29/2009 8:15:22 AM

Mus

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Is there a pressing need to have the files zipped? I would rather not have to unzip the files for every turn if thats possible.

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RE: 1792 No frills PBEM - 7/29/2009 5:25:38 PM

barbarossa2

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Does anyone see the French rumor I planted? About contacting me if you see it?

Do all rumor plantings work? I think I have tried to plant one or two which did not show up. I will keep trying to see what happens.

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