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Victory hexes - 6/17/2009 4:33:23 PM   
ptan54

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline 		Would it be possible to make this an optional feature? I am finding it difficult to believe that the enemy's (or my) will to fight will collapse simply because a few forts have been taken, even though their army is intact and supply chain is functioning...others may disagree, but if it is not too difficult to make this a feature that the player can turn on or off, I think it should be done.
Post #: 1
RE: Victory hexes - 6/17/2009 8:26:45 PM   
arras

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline 		I agree. This is strange new feature and I really wander why developers included it. I don't know any battle from period where occupation of some place would cause enemy to give up and flee in panic (in tactical battle). To make it feature of every battle ...? I really would like to hear reasons.

< Message edited by arras -- 6/17/2009 8:29:38 PM >

(in reply to ptan54)
Post #: 2
RE: Victory hexes - 6/17/2009 9:36:46 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1194
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Maybe they are needed to give the AI something to focus on.

(in reply to arras)
Post #: 3
RE: Victory hexes - 6/17/2009 11:18:36 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		Personally I like it.  One of the positive aspects of the detailed combats system in CoG-EE (and close cousin FoF) is that DC acts almost as a random scenario generator for Napoleonic combat.  Given the game's scale there a great many combat variables that are removed from the player's direct control and randomized to some extent and one of these is combat victory conditions even when they incorporate victory hexes.

Every DC represents new ground along and on the day of battle, the presence of victory hexes provide offensive or defensive goals around which one can conduct their fight.  At Borodino for example, the loss of the Ravesky Redoubt was coincident with the general withdrawl of the Russian Army.  In a CoG-EE context,  one can imagine that this event after the loss of the Bageration Fleche's constitutes a historical parallel to the use of victory hexes and so seeing such things in the game is not really too unreasonable.  Ground itself may have no intrinsic combat value but if either side for whatever reason decides that it is important then it will be fought over for reasons that may be outside of the control of the commander.

I think it's fine as is and if that is a minority opinion, am cool with that.

Just $0.02

(in reply to jhdeerslayer)
Post #: 4
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 1:29:42 AM   
arras

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline 		I politely disagree :)

Battles were sometimes fought over some areas, but not because areas themself but because they gave certain tactical advantages in battle itself. Such places were often high ground, settlements, fords or other types of terrain witch gave defensive bonuses, denied enemy freedom of maneuver, blocked retreat routes or gave good firing positions for artillery. In effect these places were important since they allowed to defeat enemy not the other way around. Such places clearly were present already in original CoG battles, but depended on conduct of battle itself (as they does in real combat) not on some preset locations. That AI could not take that in to consideration is another matter.

Obviously what I wrote do not apply to sieges (which are handled separately by game) and battles fought over important bridges through big rivers, those which restricted strategic movement (which are not represented by game at all).

Problem with these hexes is that they remove freedom to choose where to give battle. That of course is great restriction and completely unrealistic. At last in my eyes.





< Message edited by arras -- 6/18/2009 1:31:50 AM >

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 5
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 9:35:14 AM   
ptan54

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline 		Truth be told, I brought this up because I had devised a rather "creative" way to fight a defensive battle where I was outnumbered. I had played the battle first time by deploying at the victory hexes. Got mowed down by their arty. Next replay I redeployed all my troops on high ground on the edge of the map, the enemy could only advance by marching on plains before the high ground. My arty had a field day demolishing their troops and kicking the living daylights out of them. But because I had to abandon the victory hexes to deploy there, I was losing 4 WTF per turn, and lost. Even after a retreat (orderly retreat, took 0 casualties) I dealt way more casualties than I received. Kind of odd to think I had "lost" when my supply wagons were intact and they would certainly have been routed to kingdom come if not for the victory hex situation.

I agree with Arras - which hexes are important depends on where you deploy, it shouldn't be a pre-set thing before either side even deploys.

(in reply to arras)
Post #: 6
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 10:28:21 AM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I'd love to hear Gil's take on this, but I suspect it's part of the slightly artificial "Attacker vs Defender" setup. He who 'owns' the province - not occupies it, owns it - is classed as the defender, and it simply ain't necessarily so. Having set things up as attacker and defender, the ai player needs something to defend - hence the victory hexes.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to ptan54)
Post #: 7
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 10:42:01 AM   
arras

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline 		I developers felt that AI should have something to focus on ...ok, give AI its hexes. But why to subject player to the same rule? Just keep victory hexes as invisible underlayer of game AI mechanics. Without of course penalizing player for not owning them.

(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 8
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 2:33:52 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		As I remember it, the rule emerged as a way to make the WTF concept viable.  WTF was put in to stop endless battles.  In the early days of testing, with the improvement to the AI (it is MUCH better than COG), battles would go on and on for six, eight, ten game days.  It was awful.  Boring and awful.  Enter WTF.

Ah, now it was better. Battles were not as long and the attacker had to get off the dime. No more shifting here and there. No more endless slugfests killing whole armies.

But, with WTF going down each day for the "strategic attacker," i.e., the guy on enemy ground, it became virtually impossible for the attacker to win a battle unless the odds were strongly in his favor, especially if the enemy moves to a corner and "hides."  It would sometimes take several days to find and fix the enemy before meaningful combat could take place, and by that time, WTF had fallen like a rock.  Attacker =  toast.  The attacker simply routed off the field almost every time.  By having victory hexes a side couldn't just go hide in a corner and wait for the attacker to rout off the field.  (In testing, the AI was masterful at this.)  By forcing the defender to "stay on the field,"  better battle results are obtained.   This would also be true, perhaps more so, in a human-vs-human game.

I agree that it's a little artificial, and maybe not terribly historical, but it does have a very good effect on the game.  When you've played without it, you appreciate it's benefits.

< Message edited by bjmorgan -- 6/18/2009 3:04:19 PM >

(in reply to arras)
Post #: 9
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 4:14:31 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		Bjmogan wrote:
quote:

I agree that it's a little artificial, and maybe not terribly historical, but it does have a very good effect on the game.

This is exactly right. In detailed combat vs. the AI, the player already has priceless advantages like a gods-eye view of the terrain and unprecedented knowedge of where all his own units are, what they are doing and what their current status is. Any real life commander would probably have sacrificed a favorite body part (definitely a favoured aid) to have this capability.

The fact that victory hexes are often unpopular merely reflects that they are imposing factors upon the player's battlefield that are beyond their control. An army commander on The Day might have to deal with any number of unwanted circumstances and and the problems of the victory hex should be looked upon in that light. Throughout military history there have been vast numbers of geographical objectives imposed upon the combat commander that had little or no tactical importance but were significant for other reasons and so had to become part of the tactical plan.

I rather liked the way that victory hexes spawned whenever significant combats occured in the old Civil War Generals II, this created some ugly situations where high point hexes became important merely because they had been fought over. Too bad CoG-EE detailed combat doesn't allow that sort of thing, even as an option.

Victory hexes themselves may artificial and un-historical but the problems that they can pose to the player reflect factors, force decisions and create situations that are imposed upon a field commander against their will. That seems pretty historical to me.

Best Regards

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 10
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 5:46:19 PM   
Russian Guard


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Status: offline
I've always looked at the Victory Hexes as a simulated way to imply lines of retreat and communications. Armies went to great lengths, obviously, to protect their lines of retreat and lines of communications, and if they were occupied by an enemy force it generally caused panic or at least a hasty general retreat.

Granted that the actual hexes randomly selected might not reflect the actual battlefield terrain, thus its a simulated effect. I like it alot.

As an aside, during playtesting there was discussion of including hill hexes and river road-bridge hexes as Victory Hexes, but there were divergent views about that among playtesters, and it didn't get implemented.








(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 11
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 6:42:55 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		I have a set of miniatures rules -- "Legacy of Glory" by Glory Games -- that has a paragraph describing the rationale for victory locations.  Their argument is basically that, given the limited communication on the battlefield, control of prominent battlefield locations was an extremely important factor in battlefield morale, and that local commanders really had little else by which to gauge the progress of a battle in many situations.  I found their arguments fairly convincing.

From a mechanical perspective, victory hexes preclude the defensive "tactics" of running around the map with your cavalry and avoiding enemy units forever.  It gives the attacker an option for making the battle finite and makes it so that the defender can't force the battle at the absolute best location on the map.  Defenders now have to look for the best terrain that can still defend the victory hexes, and I think that actually makes the decision making more interesting than if they simply had to look for the best terrain on the map.


_____________________________



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Post #: 12
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 7:47:02 PM   
arras

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

given the limited communication on the battlefield, control of prominent battlefield locations was an extremely important factor in battlefield morale, and that local commanders really had little else by which to gauge the progress of a battle in many situations


I was reading reports of many battles, from ancient times to modern, some authentic other more speculative but newer saw anything at last closely resembling this. As I have already written, locations were fought over up and down but always because they gave occupant certain advantages over enemy tactically and "prominence" of such places was in no way automatic. If enemy decided to deploy few miles away, significance of that little hill or village would be nil. I also don't know about any situation in which mere ownership of some place influenced morale of soldiers. Battles were lost or won by defeating enemy, breaking his will to fight not by mere occupation of positions.

Imagine yourself "victory tilles" in game of chess (which is itself nothing more than simple representation of battle).

So if this feature was added to offset some defects on side of tactical AI, be it. But to me it doesnt seems to be wery authentic solution. It realy restrict player in unrealistic way. Wouldnt it be better to rather impose some time (in turns) limit on battle?

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 13
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 8:43:07 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I also don't know about any situation in which mere ownership of some place influenced morale of soldiers.

Stalingrad
Verdun
Ypres
Leningrad
Madrid
Those are a very few of the big ones and some had no tactical, economic or strategic importance whatsoever and were merely symbols whose defence or capture was imposed upon the combat commander whether it fit into his concept of operations or not.

Sort of like the CoG-EE victory hexes.

Best Regards

(in reply to arras)
Post #: 14
RE: Victory hexes - 6/18/2009 9:25:32 PM   
arras

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Randomizer :)
I was writing about Stalingrad as an example but then felt it just to be too much and deleted that part.

So here it is:
Lets look at battle of Stalingrad. Did possession of Stalingrad won battle to Soviets? Of course, not. Would occupation of town meant victory to Germans? No, would not. Germans lost because they first overcommitted themselves and bleed out on Soviets defences and then were outflanked, surrounded and destroyed, not because they did not took Stalingrad (which they took for the most part). Significance of Stalingrad (which was rather political) itself had nothing to do with their demise. Battle could have been fought over any other town or place. In fact something similar happened to them later in Kursk.
The same is valid for rest of your examples. Places like towns or bridges were fought over, but their ownership did not cause battle to be lost or won.

It was victory in battle which brought ownership of place not other way around.

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 15
RE: Victory hexes - 6/19/2009 3:03:32 AM   
ptan54

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline 		VPs as a way to prevent "turtling" - what about having the strategic defender losing morale each day also, but at a slower rate than the attacker? You get little flags telling you where the enemy is so you can't turtle forever. The defender only has a "need" to turtle if his forces are inferior in numbers and morale. If the defender also loses morale, but at a slower rate, he could rout before the attacker because his starting morale was lower than the attacker's starting morale.

Or you can simply do what I suggested in the first post - make this an optional feature. If you like it then keep the default setting, if you don't then disable it.

(in reply to arras)
Post #: 16
RE: Victory hexes - 6/19/2009 1:15:35 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

VPs as a way to prevent "turtling" - what about having the strategic defender losing morale each day also, but at a slower rate than the attacker?

This doesn't solve the problem. The attacker still routs first, unless the defebder have a very bad WTF to begin the battle.

(in reply to ptan54)
Post #: 17
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