Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI

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Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/11/2009 5:23:10 AM

easterner

Posts: 179
Joined: 10/9/2004
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In current game Spain requested access from their noble ally Prussia.

Spain was informed. "Not at this time." The Spanish stance against Aus greatly concerned Prus and I should take a hike and probably question my parents about a marriage license or lack thereof.

A rather sanctimonious view, in light of the fact the Prussian army was besieging Vienna after taking Prague and Brunn.

Why such rigidity in Diplo AI? It's "Brother Austria/Brother Prussia" nonsense has no validity when the two are at war.

Post #: 1

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/13/2009 12:30:02 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
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That is VERY interesting???
So Pr and Au were at war?
I'll take a look at this...
Do you happen to have a save of this?

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 2

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/13/2009 9:26:08 PM

Jimmer

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Marshall, from a gamer's perspective, it's important to keep Prussia and Austria from fighting each other. However, from a historical perspective, they didn't exactly get along all that well. True there were no major conflicts between them, but they each sure didn't mind when France brought them down a peg or two (or 10, in Prussia's case).

Gamewise, historicity and playability are worlds apart, at least in typical scenarios. Historically, France and Austria from 1805 - early 1812 were at war with Austria only twice, and then only for a couple of months at a time. Prussia did not join them in either war (although Russia did).

Prussia likewise was only at war ONCE (1806). Russia was ostensibly their ally early on, but Austria was still licking its wounds.

The era of grand coalitions didn't really get going until 1812. In the game, grand coalitions with human players start maybe as late as 1806, and then only if France is content to gobble up minor neutrals.

You might want to consider using different AI parameters in a single-human game from those you would use in a multi-human game that just happens to have one of them being run by the AI. Or, at least allow it as an option.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 3

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/13/2009 11:16:57 PM

AresMars

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/13/2007
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Marshall,

You should check this out related to AI Empires In Arms historical NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS

http://grognard.com/variants/eianat.txt

and

http://home.earthlink.net/~toadkillerdog/eia/afa_rules.html

< Message edited by AresMars -- 7/14/2009 11:03:07 AM >

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 4

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 3:20:13 AM

easterner

Posts: 179
Joined: 10/9/2004
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Spain Allied with Prussia.

Au declared war on Spain presumably over Sp Conquest of Italy. GB got Venetia after Au fell Unstab. Fr got Naples. Sp called to Allies and Pr declared on Au. Pr was aggressive against Au and Sp eventually amphibbed into Au, burnt their fleet and Marched to Venice. Failed to defeat Garr twice. Charles kept stomping Sp army which needed rebuilding 3x. Settled for White Peace.

Last save is 1/08 with Au at war with both countries still. Need e-mail to send files if wanted.

Fr opted out of game and snoozed.

(in reply to AresMars)

Post #: 5

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 4:11:44 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

You should chech this out related to AI Empires In Arms historical NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS

This would be a great option to implement as part of a major AI overhaul at some future point. Actually, it should be the default and then allow random AI "personalities" as the option. Normal could use the default percentages, whereas passive and aggressive could use decreased and increased percentages, respectively? AI difficulty settings could add some additional increases to these values. And upon any conditional surrender, the MP's personality could be randomly reset. Historically, that's about what happened, yes?

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 6

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 1:38:31 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
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Jimmer:

The natural alliance tables default for Au-Pr to 1 BUT in earlier versions this kept them from allying together enough to make them effective so I upped this to 3 so that they stay friendly but there is still that chance that they could fight (Maybe through multiple DOWs on the same minor or answering a call???). I cannot totally eliminate this possibility.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 7

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 2:01:22 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

I upped this to 3 so that they stay friendly but there is still that chance that they could fight (Maybe through multiple DOWs on the same minor or answering a call???).

Is the AI checking the appropriate settings to stay friendly in these cases? If I forget and end up at war with an "ally" then that's my fault. I'd prefer the AI not make these careless mistakes.

quote:

I cannot totally eliminate this possibility.

And that's OK too as long as we all understand this is a random variation and not an AI shortcoming. Some variation is necessary for replayability.

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 8

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 2:31:10 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

I upped this to 3 so that they stay friendly but there is still that chance that they could fight (Maybe through multiple DOWs on the same minor or answering a call???).

Is the AI checking the appropriate settings to stay friendly in these cases? If I forget and end up at war with an "ally" then that's my fault. I'd prefer the AI not make these careless mistakes.

quote:

I cannot totally eliminate this possibility.

And that's OK too as long as we all understand this is a random variation and not an AI shortcoming. Some variation is necessary for replayability.

It "should" be BUT this is something that I can look at to verify.
Question to all would be how often are you seeing this?

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 9

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 4:50:40 PM

easterner

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In years of FtF games Au & Pr constantly fought, so I'm used to seeing that.

What I dislike is the passive roll the AI takes, just sitting pat waiting to win. Fr and others need be more aggressive. The AI needs to see who's in the lead and have a chance to attack them.

One interesting thing is Easy Spain Game ended 9/15, something not seen in all previous versions at higher levels that frequently ended in '09-'11 too often in ver 1.0-1.06

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 10

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/14/2009 5:41:36 PM

Jimmer

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Joined: 12/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Jimmer:

The natural alliance tables default for Au-Pr to 1 BUT in earlier versions this kept them from allying together enough to make them effective so I upped this to 3 so that they stay friendly but there is still that chance that they could fight (Maybe through multiple DOWs on the same minor or answering a call???). I cannot totally eliminate this possibility.

Oh, yeah, I realize that. But, it can be made more likely.

The other thing I was really getting at is maybe you could add either an option or a scenario that carries different AI "attitudes" with the other powers.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 11

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 12:50:35 AM

Marshall Ellis

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From: Dallas
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That ability already exist in the editor in the Stance field for MPs.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 12

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 4:25:21 AM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: easterner

In years of FtF games Au & Pr constantly fought, so I'm used to seeing that.

What I dislike is the passive roll the AI takes, just sitting pat waiting to win. Fr and others need be more aggressive. The AI needs to see who's in the lead and have a chance to attack them.

One interesting thing is Easy Spain Game ended 9/15, something not seen in all previous versions at higher levels that frequently ended in '09-'11 too often in ver 1.0-1.06

Pr-Au hardly ever fought in all the FtF games I played in, most people in my group and others I met always had the "German" mindset.

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 13

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 5:23:47 AM

easterner

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Backstabbing diplomacy caused strange bedfellows in our games.

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 14

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 1:47:30 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
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From: Dallas
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FYI:

Part of our problem in the AI was the inability to think deep enough into enemy territory to build the supply lines to invade SO the AI would get frustrated (It told me so, I promise LOL) and sit. This should be much better in 1.06 than it has been in the past BUT it still needs improvement and it will be.

When I played FtF and Pr / Au fought, it usually meant pretty easy victory for France.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 15

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 6:14:31 PM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: easterner

Backstabbing diplomacy caused strange bedfellows in our games.

That happened to a game I was in, too.

I quit it.

If people want to play Diplomacy or Machievelli, then they should do so. I've got better things to do with my time than play a year-long game with people I can't trust even a little.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 16

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/15/2009 7:12:24 PM

easterner

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The players who destroyed themselves in ill advised fratricide invariably quit on their own.

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 17

RE: Do As I Say, Not As I Do- Diplo/AI - 7/18/2009 1:39:58 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

When I played FtF and Pr / Au fought, it usually meant pretty easy victory for France.

Something to consider here is if you're playing France and the AI controls Prussia and Austria, then those two fighting probably would not result in a satisfying game. But if you're playing Prussia or Austria versus the AI and looking for a challenging game then having another unexpected war to contend with occassionally would be OK.

Point is there could be some additional logic introduced for AI stance in the editor to allow for different stances for human and AI. Maybe add "new" slots for the MPs, such as Human Britain and AI Britain, then different stance settings could be introduced?

(in reply to easterner)

Post #: 18