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Case White AAR (After action report)

 
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Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 9:41:39 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Case White AAR (After action report)

As the German Army High Command (OKH) The following plans are set into motion

By ready to attack Denmark: Two fast moving units, both 4 movers are on the Danish border, one to take Copenhagen and one to secure Frederikshavn.

Spread out the fleet: In order to minimise Western Allies port strikes the fleet I spread out the best BB and CA safe in East Prussia together with the AMPH and TRS. Takes time to get the fleet in battle formation, but at least I will have some fleet to threaten Commonweal with.

Only one convoy at sea in the Baltic: In case of a Western Allies surprise raid in the Baltic Sea, I only start with one CP a sea in the North Sea, risky but normally Germany can do a combined during impulse 3 or 4 to secure the Swedish Iron ore.

Have some forces ready against the Netherlands: 3 INFs and some a couple of planes are near the border of Netherlands, this is to keep the Commonwealth on there toes about having forces ready for Rotterdam, if Von Leeb survives any ground strike attempt he could reorganize a couple of fine reserves too.

Keep von Leeb safe on the western front: I Placed Von Leeb, in a forest hex and out of normal ground strike range from French (At extended range they will still reach him), and placed a AA with him to discourage any ground strike attempts.

Fortifications: I like to secure the threat from Denmark, this maybe a waste of a good fort placement, but I don’t have to fear an Allied invasion from the North later in the war. The other two forts are placed to safe gourd the Ruhr district.

Air force: Quite week draw and I might need to rebase some bombers to the Polish front

West front





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
Post #: 1
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 9:42:24 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Case White AAR (After action report)


East Prussia: Quite a strong force, one armoured spearhead stack, a HQA to reorganize if needed, a few INFs, the best ART and all short range planes are placed here so the reach both Warsaw and Lodz.

Germany: Normal force, one armoured spearhead stack, a HQI to reorganize if needed, some INFs and all long range planes are placed here so the reach both Warsaw and Lodz. The force will split in two groups if needed one against Poznan and Krakow.

Other: Note the Engineer placement, near Gdyna ready to overrun the Polish fleet and rejoin the East Prussia forces.

Notable optional rules: Almost all including 2D10 Land CRT, but not Railway Movement

East front




The question is: How will the Polish defenders setup?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/21/2009 9:47:17 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 10:28:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Case White AAR (After action report)


East Prussia: Quite a strong force, one armoured spearhead stack, a HQA to reorganize if needed, a few INFs, the best ART and all short range planes are placed here so the reach both Warsaw and Lodz.

Germany: Normal force, one armoured spearhead stack, a HQI to reorganize if needed, some INFs and all long range planes are placed here so the reach both Warsaw and Lodz. The force will split in two groups if needed one against Poznan and Krakow.

Other: Note the Engineer placement, near Gdyna ready to overrun the Polish fleet and rejoin the East Prussia forces.

Notable optional rules: Almost all including 2D10 Land CRT, but not Railway Movement

East front




The question is: How will the Polish defenders setup?

If you stack the 3-3 ART with the 8-6 ARM and the 7-5 MECH you will have a stack capable of overrunning a 3 point Polish unit.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 3
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 10:51:39 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
If you stack the 3-3 ART with the 8-6 ARM and the 7-5 MECH you will have a stack capable of overrunning a 3 point Polish unit.


Correct Steve, but I fear my opponent will not give me that easy victory - he seams to know every thing I do – and I also have a shortage of good bombers, I need to flip the defender too, inorder to get the +16.


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 4
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 11:27:33 PM   
sajbalk


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From: Davenport, Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: How will the Polish defenders setup?


Given a strong threat to the Netherlands, the CW will likely need a naval impulse to begin things. To that end, the Polish must be concentrated in the cities of Warsaw and Lodz with a strong enough unit N. of the cities to prevent 1st turn overrun and attack on cites.

So, weak units in cities to the west and ZOCs to the west. Leave the NW ports ungarrisoned, at least 4 pt unit N. of the cities, and concentrate the rest in the cities. Polish air -- in the forests to the east to rebase after first turn groundstrikes or to be interned for the pilots.



< Message edited by sajbalk -- 7/21/2009 11:28:08 PM >

_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 5
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 11:32:14 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline 		Steve - would it be possible to post the maps together, as you have done in the past, as a sticky?



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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 6
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/21/2009 11:58:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Steve - would it be possible to post the maps together, as you have done in the past, as a sticky?



This is Peter's show. I try to stay out of the AAR's as much as possible - except as a player, of course.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 7
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 8:03:47 AM   
Greywolf

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 11/15/2000
Status: offline 		Hope you got some land units in Konigsberg... or you will need to divert forces to Danzig.

Also you set up no one in Czechoslovakia... wich mean the Polish can concentrate on the West front, and possibly send a Cav through the gap...

Dont bet on having any Polish unit ready to be overruned, there is no need to be as there is no way Poland could fold in one single impulse so no need to use speedbump...

As Poland with this set up I will try an empty warsaw first turn and a build up in danzig, gdanzk and the forest North of Vistula... plenty of juicy germans ships there... With Poznan, Lodz and Krakow as front line city to help stop invaders, a 2 unit buildup in Gdynia could be very fun because it will be really tricky choice for the germans to cover it or divert troups against it. I need to read the rules to see if setting up the polish HQ here or in Danzig could be a good thing to try to extract it with a fast CW transport(queens?) during the 2nd impulse, before the germans could close the baltic... I think the CW could use another good HQ...

You should really put a 5 mover in Czecoslovakia... so Poland need to cover South approach to Warsaw.



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Lt. Col. Ivan 'Greywolf' Kerensky

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 8
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 10:48:13 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

Hope you got some land units in Konigsberg... or you will need to divert forces to Danzig.

Also you set up no one in Czechoslovakia... wich mean the Polish can concentrate on the West front, and possibly send a Cav through the gap...

Dont bet on having any Polish unit ready to be overruned, there is no need to be as there is no way Poland could fold in one single impulse so no need to use speedbump...

As Poland with this set up I will try an empty warsaw first turn and a build up in danzig, gdanzk and the forest North of Vistula... plenty of juicy germans ships there... With Poznan, Lodz and Krakow as front line city to help stop invaders, a 2 unit buildup in Gdynia could be very fun because it will be really tricky choice for the germans to cover it or divert troups against it. I need to read the rules to see if setting up the polish HQ here or in Danzig could be a good thing to try to extract it with a fast CW transport(queens?) during the 2nd impulse, before the germans could close the baltic... I think the CW could use another good HQ...

You should really put a 5 mover in Czecoslovakia... so Poland need to cover South approach to Warsaw.




There is no point trying to extract the Polish HQ. It will be removed from the game when/if Poland is conquered. If you want to save Polish units for CW you can put them in eastern Poland. When/if USSR exercise his rights to the east part of Poland then the units there may later be put in the CW force pool.

The German units in East Prussia can get supply through the port if Memel even with a Polish unit in Danzig.

If there are any Polish corps sized units in Danzig or Gdynia I would be pleased as a German player and just ZOC them from being able to get back to Lodz or Warzaw. If the units there advance into Koningsberg or Memel then Germany just get a free rebase to Kiel where he wants the ships to be anyway, now that the suprise port strike is over. I might also use a unit to ZOC them from reaching anything important in Germany.

For the second impulse I count on that the German units from East Prussia would be able to get supply from a German city through Poland.

With one or more corps in Gdansk or Gdynia you could be defending the factory cities lightly. If the units in Poznan, Krakow and the forrest north of Vistula are all destroyed during the suprise impulse (not completely unlikely) then there would be to few Polish units left to stack 4 corps in Warsaw and Lodz.

With all of this said it could be nice to try a setup without any units in Warsaw. I think Peskpesk had one such setup in his thread for the Poland AI. But you need to be careful when you do because if you play without "Option 34: (Motorised movement rates)" then the German armor can just blitz into an empty Warsaw. The same applies if you play with "AiF/PatiF Option 37: (Railway movement bonus)" and the armor attacks along the railway.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 9
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 5:30:52 PM   
peskpesk


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Joined: 7/17/2003
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Status: offline 		Case White AAR (After action report)

The Polish defence plan under commander in chief Marshal Edward Rydz-Smigly is a daring one.

The basic plan:
• The defence of Lodz and Warsaw is superior to everything else and against no factory city must the Germans be allowed to gain more that two hexes.
• Warsaw will be the last defensive hex should everything else fail and the Vistual river line will hamper German attacks from the North and East.
• The most daring part of the defence is that Warsaw is left undefended to spare the cities defenders from the initial ground strikes from the Luftwaffe. The next Allied impulse will Commonwealth take a Combined or Land and hopefully will undisrupted units move in and reinforce the capital.

The details:
• Lodz is held by the Rydz HQI and a strong INF.
• In order to stops the way to Lodz from west has the fast moving Tarnow CAV been placed in city of Poznan.
• The 1:th POL INF DIV has been order the forest hex near the border to keep the German armoured spearhead near Breslau from reaching Lodz during the critical first impulse.
• In the forest north east of Warsaw has the brave Karpaty Army been given the grim task of keeping the approach to the capital closed during the initial German surprise.
• The backdoor to Lodz and Warsaw from the south is blocked by the Modlin INF that is dug in Krakow, the unit is also ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• From the east is the way to Warsaw heavily blocked by the elite Krakow INF which has taken defensive positions in Brest-Litovsk, the unit is also ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• In the southern forest of Galicia has the fast Pomporze INF taken position ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• The Polish air forces are placed to reach both Lithuania (to be interned) and to be able to join the fighting around the factory cities.
• The navy is spared out to in order to make it more difficult to sink them during a port strike.

The gamble:
• Should Germany suchessfully ground strike or kill of the Polish units that can reach Warsaw, the capital fall without a fight.




What shall the Germans do?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/22/2009 5:31:12 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 10
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 5:35:53 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		The Poles are guaranteed to get at least one unit into Warsaw. The 4-4 INF is out of range of all Luftwaffe planes.

I don't see it really helping Poland unless the weather turns sour early on or the Germans get unlucky. That is all you can hope for, though, I guess.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

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Post #: 11
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 6:29:29 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline 		That is a rather daring strategy for Poland.

Germany should be able to destroy without friendly casualties the 3-3 INF NE of Warsaw, have the engineer walk through the ports, kill the 3-4 CAV and the 1-4 inf div.

In addition, during the surprise impulse, Germany should be able to successfully ground strike both units in Lodz. Using the 2D10, this gives Germany +4, say +4 for odds, HQ attacking cancels the city, and HQ support adds 2. This is offset by the factories. In this instance, I would not attack as Germany.

The Polish defence does run one serious risk: if the 3 units above are killed (100% probability), and if the weather turns to rain in the North Temperate zone (40%), then Warsaw will be undefended and Lodz taken with ease as well during the second Axis impulse.



_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 12
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 6:37:48 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Case White AAR (After action report)

The Polish defence plan under commander in chief Marshal Edward Rydz-Smigly is a daring one.

The basic plan:
• The defence of Lodz and Warsaw is superior to everything else and against no factory city must the Germans be allowed to gain more that two hexes.
• Warsaw will be the last defensive hex should everything else fail and the Vistual river line will hamper German attacks from the North and East.
• The most daring part of the defence is that Warsaw is left undefended to spare the cities defenders from the initial ground strikes from the Luftwaffe. The next Allied impulse will Commonwealth take a Combined or Land and hopefully will undisrupted units move in and reinforce the capital.

The details:
• Lodz is held by the Rydz HQI and a strong INF.
• In order to stops the way to Lodz from west has the fast moving Tarnow CAV been placed in city of Poznan.
• The 1:th POL INF DIV has been order the forest hex near the border to keep the German armoured spearhead near Breslau from reaching Lodz during the critical first impulse.
• In the forest north east of Warsaw has the brave Karpaty Army been given the grim task of keeping the approach to the capital closed during the initial German surprise.
• The backdoor to Lodz and Warsaw from the south is blocked by the Modlin INF that is dug in Krakow, the unit is also ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• From the east is the way to Warsaw heavily blocked by the elite Krakow INF which has taken defensive positions in Brest-Litovsk, the unit is also ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• In the southern forest of Galicia has the fast Pomporze INF taken position ready to reinforce Warsaw.
• The Polish air forces are placed to reach both Lithuania (to be interned) and to be able to join the fighting around the factory cities.
• The navy is spared out to in order to make it more difficult to sink them during a port strike.

The gamble:
• Should Germany suchessfully ground strike or kill of the Polish units that can reach Warsaw, the capital fall without a fight.




What shall the Germans do?

Without knowing the details of the German units, I can't be sure, but this seems like a foolish setup to me. A successful ground strike (~50%) on the elite 5-3 would effectively eliminate it from future consideration. Lodz would receive 3 grounds by the 2 factors air units (74% success on each target). I would use 2 units to ZOC the 3-4 cavalry. I would probably ignore the 1-4. I would crush the 4-3 in Kracow (sp?). After overrrunning the naval units, I would have a good attack on Lodz (2 hexes) and the 3-3 (3 hexes). The 3-3 would be unable to retreat because of ZOC. This leaves just the 4-4 defending Warsaw on the second impulse unless the 5-3 dodges the ground strike.

The danger here to the Poles is that Germany will only have to destroy 5 units to conquer them (or 6 if the 5-3 makes it back to Warsaw). Also, Germany gets a very good attack on Lodz in the first impulse. I believe there are other setups where Germany will be forced to destroy 6 or 7 Polish units and cannot get a good attack on Lodz until the 3 impulse and Warsaw in the 5th.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 13
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 9:53:45 PM   
morgil


Posts: 114
Joined: 5/9/2008
From: Bergen, Norway
Status: offline 		Hmmm...First off I would start out by cursing for not including Railway movement.
And as you can only get max 14 assault on Lodz i would wait with that, seeing that the Eng would be first loss.
I would probably Stuka Lodz, to flip the HQ, bomb the unit in Krakow, and then just splat the Cav, div and the 3-3, all +20 attacks, while taking out the fleet, and securing Katowice and the resource.
Risky assaults in Poland, with a good chance of loosing more than an INF, is just silly.
Both the Cav and the div are within striking distance of Prague, in 2 impulses, and it takes as many units +/- to kill them as to screen them.

< Message edited by morgil -- 7/22/2009 10:05:28 PM >

_____________________________

Gott weiss ich will kein Engel sein.

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Post #: 14
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 10:06:02 PM   
peskpesk


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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil
Hmmm...First off I would start out by cursing for not including Railway movement.
...


Yes, this defence can nver be used when Railway movement is in play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
this seems like a foolish setup to me.


Partly true, it’s a big gamble setup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
A successful ground strike (~50%) on the elite 5-3 would effectively eliminate it from future consideration.
...

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
The Poles are guaranteed to get at least one unit into Warsaw. The 4-4 INF is out of range of all Luftwaffe planes.
...


Correct , since no German unit could get further than to Brest-Litvosk it would have been better to place the elite 5-3 out of the Stuka range, maybe stacked with the 4-4 INF since it’s out of range of any bomber.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Lodz would receive 3 grounds by the 2 factors air units (74% success on each target)
...I would have a good attack on Lodz (2 hexes)
...


Not so easy, no bomber are left to help with all the above ground strikes.

7-4 INF+6-4 MTN+1-4 ENG , 8-6 ARM+7-4 HQA+4-3ART = 33:9 = 3-1 = +6

City -1
Printed factory in hex being attacked -1
HQ attacking city +1
Per ENG factor attacking a city +1.
plus half the reorganization value of a supporting HQ=+2

In the very best case if both defenders was disorganized and no defensive HQ support.

+2 per disorganized defending unit=+4;

=+12.33 Not so great as a first attack, risk of becoming disorganised. As sajbalk said I would not attack as Germany.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

In addition, during the surprise impulse, Germany should be able to successfully ground strike both units in Lodz.
…
In this instance, I would not attack as Germany.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
I believe there are other setups where Germany will be forced to destroy 6 or 7 Polish units and cannot get a good attack on Lodz until the 3 impulse and Warsaw in the 5th.
...


Mayby, but I have never seen a setup which can stop the Germans from having 3 hexes on Lodz on axis impulse 2 and then it usually falls on the same or the impulse there after. With average luck Warsaw can be attacked on axis impulse 3 or 4.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/22/2009 10:14:34 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 15
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 10:21:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Hmmm...First off I would start out by cursing for not including Railway movement.
And as you can only get max 14 assault on Lodz i would wait with that, seeing that the Eng would be first loss.
I would probably Stuka Lodz, to flip the HQ, bomb the unit in Krakow, and then just splat the Cav, div and the 3-3, all +20 attacks, while taking out the fleet, and securing Katowice and the resource.
Risky assaults in Poland, with a good chance of loosing more than an INF, is just silly.
Both the Cav and the div are within striking distance of Prague, in 2 impulses, and it takes as many units +/- to kill them as to screen them.

It depends on the units available to attack Lodz.

I would be willing to risk a 10% chance of failure to destroy both units in Lodz. That's because it gives me a 90% chance of holding Lodz at the end of the first impulse. Not only does that make Warsaw likely to fall on the third impulse, it also means I can start sending units west on impulse 3 and almost everyone else (that's not disorganized) on impulse 5.

If you put off taking Lodz until Imp 3, then Warsaw can't be taken until Imp5 and you will not have anyone in the west until the second turn. That really looks like not much happening in Nov/Dec and bad weather coming in Jan/Feb - extending in Mar/Apr.

If the attack on Lodz fails, well, then the Germans are going to be mucking around in Poland for the rest of the first turn. Which leads to the same scenario as in the paragraph preceding.
---
What you seem to be cautious about is taking casualties in Poland ('silly'). I would be more likely to depair about having my units spend another turn in Poland before they can attack in the west. A few build points here and there isn't a big deal for the Germans, while giving France and the CW another turn that they can hold onto Paris is a very big deal. Just my opinion.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 16
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 10:46:35 PM   
morgil


Posts: 114
Joined: 5/9/2008
From: Bergen, Norway
Status: offline 		Units attacking Lodz, I assumed best case scenario, with added bombers, and HQ support.
Not taking Lodz on first impulse is not the risk, loosing the one German ENG is the risk I would not be willing to take.

The main reason for being cautious in Poland, comes mainly from playing against rather silly ppl, that will do +9 assaults across the board during SO-39 and then concede the game if they loose too much...

But if you don't loose any units its a good opener


_____________________________

Gott weiss ich will kein Engel sein.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 17
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/22/2009 11:09:47 PM   
Mike Parker

 

Posts: 583
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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		Heh Morgil,

Sounds like you need to play for some incentive.  Uhmmm $20 from the losers to the winners (errr 20 Euros sorry) would stop the 'Make risky attacks in '39 and concede if they fail' or at the least would compensate you nicely for the impudence :)

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 18
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 8:10:16 AM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Hmmm...First off I would start out by cursing for not including Railway movement.


Sorry but I don't get this one. I will check the optional rules, just in case.


Unless extreme bad luck with dice and climate, Poland would fall to a medium experienced german commander in 3 impulses.

First, we always play with surprised zoc optional rule, what makes leaving warsaw undefended a totally free prey.

Then, I would not leave troops in the german front or Krakow, with no ZoC, to be anihilated easily for the german without really delaying hyim on his way to Lodz and Warsaw. Except if I thought the cavalry can cut some supply lines or sth. like that, which is unprobable.

I would reserve the 4-4 inf to reinforce the corps that I would leave in Warsaw, along with the unit that i iwould leave there (5-3 elite), and i would try to defend the forest north of Warsaw with the 3-3 and the 4-3, to have a possibility of disorganizing some of his units if attacked or leave one less place to attack Warsaw from if not.

Since there is a 95% possibilities that Poland will anyway surrender, one priority will be to make the maximum damage. For this I would leave the 1-4 infantry in Danzing, if it is not eliminated (distracts 1-2 units, cause it's in a city and cannot be overrun ?)it can overrun the german ships, causing losses and maybe captures.

I would see if the planes can really be of help (if the situation is not desperate). If they can help then use the bomber and intern or use the fighter (as needed).

The polish ships:

1- Aren't there several convoys left in the display?

2 -Is there some place where the can be saved from overrun inside Polish land? (I.E. some little island with a minor port in the baltic...).

3 - In our games, the german overruns the ships in the second turn, after it declares war to Denmark and captures it (with fine weather), so the ships don't have a rebase inside or outside Poland and all the no captured die (90%). Can this be avoided?

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 19
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 8:46:43 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Hmmm...First off I would start out by cursing for not including Railway movement.


Sorry but I don't get this one. I will check the optional rules, just in case.


Unless extreme bad luck with dice and climate, Poland would fall to a medium experienced german commander in 3 impulses.

First, we always play with surprised zoc optional rule, what makes leaving warsaw undefended a totally free prey.

Then, I would not leave troops in the german front or Krakow, with no ZoC, to be anihilated easily for the german without really delaying hyim on his way to Lodz and Warsaw. Except if I thought the cavalry can cut some supply lines or sth. like that, which is unprobable.

I would reserve the 4-4 inf to reinforce the corps that I would leave in Warsaw, along with the unit that i iwould leave there (5-3 elite), and i would try to defend the forest north of Warsaw with the 3-3 and the 4-3, to have a possibility of disorganizing some of his units if attacked or leave one less place to attack Warsaw from if not.

Since there is a 95% possibilities that Poland will anyway surrender, one priority will be to make the maximum damage. For this I would leave the 1-4 infantry in Danzing, if it is not eliminated (distracts 1-2 units, cause it's in a city and cannot be overrun ?)it can overrun the german ships, causing losses and maybe captures.

I would see if the planes can really be of help (if the situation is not desperate). If they can help then use the bomber and intern or use the fighter (as needed).

The polish ships:

1- Aren't there several convoys left in the display?

2 -Is there some place where the can be saved from overrun inside Polish land? (I.E. some little island with a minor port in the baltic...).

3 - In our games, the german overruns the ships in the second turn, after it declares war to Denmark and captures it (with fine weather), so the ships don't have a rebase inside or outside Poland and all the no captured die (90%). Can this be avoided?

It's a completely different game with surprised ZOCs. Best defence then is to play "ring around Warsaw".

The 1-4 looks great in East Poland so it can be interned along with the HQ and then show up later in the CW force pool. These are the two most valuable units and need to be saved since Poland is going down no matter what - even if it takes until ND39. The 1-4 is one more Div that can invade from an SCS - that is what makes it worth more than a Polish Mech and Mot.

As for #3, if they aren't overrun in the first impulse then they can be moved out in the second and escape before Denmark is attacked.





_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 20
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 9:05:42 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Yes, but only in a combined (or naval) movement, which is not always possible or convenient in Polish first impulse. Not only because you may need to move more than 3 land units but also because if you have been unlucky with the bombings and you want to use the HQ to reorganize the units in Warsaw, then you need a land movement. (in case you dont intern the HQ).

It's interesting to save the div but not as much as (IMO) overrunning the german fleet because there is like a 40% of capturing or sinkinig his ships and every ship lost for the German means 2 to 5 BP plus 20 to 24 months to replace (half the war), not to mention that some ship or convoys could be captured.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 7/23/2009 9:07:58 AM >

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 21
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 10:21:24 AM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yes, but only in a combined (or naval) movement, which is not always possible or convenient in Polish first impulse. Not only because you may need to move more than 3 land units but also because if you have been unlucky with the bombings and you want to use the HQ to reorganize the units in Warsaw, then you need a land movement. (in case you dont intern the HQ).

It's interesting to save the div but not as much as (IMO) overrunning the german fleet because there is like a 40% of capturing or sinkinig his ships and every ship lost for the German means 2 to 5 BP plus 20 to 24 months to replace (half the war), not to mention that some ship or convoys could be captured.


Overrunning the german fleet just causes it to rebase. Unless, somehow, some German ships has become disorganized.

Cut from:
15. Surprise
Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with. Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 22
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 11:19:41 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		You made me afraid for a second that we had been paying this wrong all the time . I think it's not like you say. From RAW 11.11.6 :


quote:

  
Overrunning naval units
If a land unit from the other side moves into a port containing any of your naval units, they must rebase. Before they do, roll for each face-down or surprised naval unit there.
If you roll a ‘5’ or higher, you keep control of the unit. If you roll a ‘1’, the enemy major power takes control of it until destroyed (option 46: partisans destroy naval units instead of taking control).

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 23
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 11:24:28 AM   
Orm


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Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You made me afraid for a second that we had been paying this wrong all the time . I think it's not like you say. From RAW 11.11.6 :


quote:

  
Overrunning naval units
If a land unit from the other side moves into a port containing any of your naval units, they must rebase. Before they do, roll for each face-down or surprised naval unit there.
If you roll a ‘5’ or higher, you keep control of the unit. If you roll a ‘1’, the enemy major power takes control of it until destroyed (option 46: partisans destroy naval units instead of taking control).



It says: roll for each face-down or surprised naval unit

Germany is not suprised by Poland nor are their ships face-down

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 24
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 11:42:20 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Jeez!!! I don't know how I didn't read that. Of course you are right.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 25
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 1:18:39 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Jeez!!! I don't know how I didn't read that. Of course you are right.

WiF is like that, and you'll say this sentence a thousand time, I promise you

And worse, you'll have the impression that the rule changed somehow between the time you read it and the time you discover the extra words, and you'll curse the designer. Sometime it will be true, sometime not. You if you't know ask me, I have all versions of the rules and can tell you.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 26
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 1:37:45 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Jeez!!! I don't know how I didn't read that. Of course you are right.

WiF is like that, and you'll say this sentence a thousand time, I promise you

And worse, you'll have the impression that the rule changed somehow between the time you read it and the time you discover the extra words, and you'll curse the designer. Sometime it will be true, sometime not. You if you't know ask me, I have all versions of the rules and can tell you.



You can bet I will. By now, after like 20 (shorter or longer) or more games I must have said that about 500 times, so I am on the way...

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 27
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/23/2009 7:56:14 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Case White AAR (After action report)

OKH decided on a land impulse and therefore has Germany only 4 air actions.

As the the German Air Force High Command (OKL)

These are the option available to the OKL and their decisions made regarding that option when planning the first German impulse.

Port attack
To utterly destroy the polish fleet with port attacks on Gdynia and Danzig would have been nice. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste 1-2 air actions when they are needed else where.
• Mostly no or poor naval air strength units in range of the Polish ports.
• The good naval air strength units (He 115C) is saved for later in the turn, war could erupts with Denmark or the Netherlands or the Western Allies makes a daring raid into the Baltic Sea.
• The price, 1 CA and a CP is quite low.
• Wehrmacht has troops ready to overrun the Polish navy in the ports, a port strike might be an over kill.

Naval air
In order to efficient guard the convoys of the Kriegsmarine the (He 115C) could be deployed to the Baltic Sea. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• The gain by protecting 1 CP is low.
• The Western Allies don’t have to make a raid and if the don’t the NAV is just wasting fuel.
• The good naval air strength units (He 115C) is saved for later in the turn, war could erupts with Denmark or the Netherlands or the Western Allies makes a daring raid into the Baltic Sea.

Strategic Bombing
A strategic bombing raid on Lodz or Warsaw could destroy productions pts for the Commonwealth. You need 1 strategic factor and roll 8 ( +1 to die if not intercepted) to destroy a production point. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• Commonwealth production multiple is only 0.5.
• Mostly no or poor strategic strength units in range of the Polish factories.
• The good strategic strength unit (HE 111H) is on the western front.

Ground strike
A ground strike bombing raid on Polish units could disrupt them, making them easier to destroy and disable their usefulness for the Commonwealth. You need 1+ land factor and roll equal to the factors to disrupt a unit placed in the clear. OKLs decision YES.
• The positive surprise effect on Ground strikes (roll two times).
• The chance to disrupt and thereby stop a vital reinforcement from reaching Warsaw (Combined with some minor manoeuvring and a successful land attack on Krakow this will leave the polish capital with just one defender!).
• The chance to disrupt the vital Polish HQI.
• The chance to disrupt two units in one attack in Lodz.
• Lodz must be attacked and taken in order to concur Poland.

Plan go all in! 3 bombers to strike Lodz and one to Brest-Litvosk (See the picture).

Carpet bombing
A carpet bombing raid on Polish units could destroy them. You need 7 strategic factors and roll 11 ( +1 to die if not intercepted) to destroy land unit. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• Mostly no or poor strategic strength units in range of the Polish factories.
• The good strategic strength unit(HE 111H) is on the western front.
• To many air units needed to make the 7 strategic factors target and the chance of success is to low

Air transport
With the JU 52 I could air transport 1 MTN or 1 INF division (or 1 PARA, if Germany had any). OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• No need for a air transport
• The plane is saved for later impulses.

Ground support (No activity limitations)
A ground support on land attacks could change to odds and thereby making Polish units easier to destroy. OKLs decision NO.
• OKH has planed to make automatic/high odds attacks the need for ground support should be low.
• The planes might be needed in later impulses.

Rebasing aircraft
Unused planes on the Eastern/Western front could be rebased to the other front. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• There are already plans to use the units on their current front.

Air re-supply
A failed land attack might cause more disruptions than the HQs can reorganize. The JU 52 I could reorganize a land unit. OKLs decision NO.
• Air activity limitations, can’t waste an air action when they are needed else where.
• OKH has planed to make automatic/high odds attacks the risk of disruptions should be low.
• The plane is saved for later impulses when bad weather might cause more disruptions.




Situation during axis first impulse and the ongoing German ground strike

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/24/2009 3:59:33 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 28
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/24/2009 6:23:52 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Case White AAR (After action report)

German Air Force High Command (OKL)

Situation during axis first impulse and the after German ground strikes.



A black Porsche stops outside German Air Force High Command (OKL) and Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring is for the first time of the war summoned to Berlin to answer for the failures.

The ground strike on Brest-litovsk have a little more than 50% success and in Lodz the was 74% success on each target! But only one unit is disorganized, the 5-3 INF in Lodz.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/24/2009 6:27:58 AM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 29
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 7/24/2009 1:25:44 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		After the poor performance by the German bombers I would immediately start the production of new bomber types. Retire these bombers as soon as possible.

Maybe I would keep the Ju 87B on to see if they can improve their skill. After all, their target was hidden in a deep forrest.

Sacking Göring would be a priority since he is at fault that no bombers are available to match their pilots skill and bravery.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 30
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