Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: morgil

Ohh and now Gort will land in Denmark at the German border and airstrikes will flip the German troops in Copenhagen and Kiel, and next impulse stroll over the strait and take out the isolated, flipped 4-4 on a 24-1 assault.
Copenhagen is then propperly defended, and Germany forever doomed to take alternating Naval/Combines to refill the lost Convs in the Baltic.

If all that should fail, its a quick death for the Frenchies in the Baltic as a ship unable to return to base, at the return to base step, is lost at sea, ie destroyed.

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11.4.4 Naval movement restrictions
1. You can’t move naval units between Kiel and the North Sea if an enemy major power controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Kiel Canal.
2. You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Red Sea, or between Suez and the Eastern Mediterranean, if a major power you are at war with controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Suez Canal.
3. You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.
4. You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.

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Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
ï an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
ï an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1) or liberated (see 13.7.5); or

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Ok, just it looks like a troop transport, but I guess it's a probem of the Beta graphics.

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ORIGINAL: ItBurns

Ok, its been a long time since I played but I'm confused as to why the British would want to land units in either Denmark or the Netherlands (with a neutral Belgium). After Poland the Germans will have all the bad weather turns to turn around and stomp them into the bogs costing the British some of their very few land units and weakening the defence of France. As the German I'd be happy to trade a few convoys for Gort. And in Holland its seems to me there's even less to gain what am I missing?

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Ok, thanks.

Although I saw that PeskPesk wrote CP (and I guessed it means convoy), the image is too similar to a troop transport, although in the game counter themselves they are easily differentiable.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Denmark has no factories so taking Copenhagen will cause incomplete conquest at the end of the turn. This will force the CW out of Denmark.

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ORIGINAL: lavisj
Of course for the CW to have troops in Denmark in 1940 means that they are very, very weak somewhere else... typically the Med as their troops will be split between France and Denmark.

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ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

2. Small initial german reaction. The german initially send small amount of forces. The British used the fact to push into Jutland and eventually retook Copenhagen (ok, some luck was invovled). The Germans then had to send large reinforcements to retake Copenhagen and push the British to Frederickshaven. It was eventually done, but not before MJ40 which did delay the French campaign a bit and allowed the French to last longer until ND if I remember correctly.

3. Strong Initial German Reaction. If the German rails a significan amount of units in SO (HQ and ARM) then Frederickshaven being a blitzable hex can not really be held (but then we do not play with Defensive Shore Bombardment) and it resulted in the evacuation of the BEF from Denmark during the winter. IN half those cases the german lost a unit when the CW Blitzed Frederickshaven.

This is my experience. The german can easily force the CW out, but they need to do it immediately and send as much force as possible. The CW will then have to decide wether to accept the confrontation, but I do not think it is worthy for them. It becomes bad if German ignores it, or just go at it in a mild way.

Of course for the CW to have troops in Denmark in 1940 means that they are very, very weak somewhere else... typically the Med as their troops will be split between France and Denmark.

Just my 2 cents.

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ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

...

Just my 2 cents.

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

...

Just my 2 cents.

How was this possible? Of course, British ships cannot cross from North sea to Baltic sea even through Frederickshaven. I can only imagine it was done through naval bombers or sacrificing fleet before the strait was closed.

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ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

The Allied threat with Frederickhaven is to send naval units into the Baltic. How long can the Germans stand to lose 3 or 4 resources per turn?

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ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Well, its 3 resources, and in 1939/40 that's 2.25/3? BP's. I'm ok with losing those BP's in S/O'39 if I get continuous good weather(I tend to go two thirds Fall Gelb...so WAllies are under pressure immediately if the weather opportunity is there). If the weather turns worse than rain, the Kreigsmarine can take a naval and sail out(4, 1 and zero boxes) into the Baltic with cp's...so its unlikely the WAllies can do much unless they want to risk losing too many assets when the Baltic closes. N/D'39, and J/F'40 weather is expected to be very bad at some point during the turn, if not, then good for me in Belgium/France and I'll be ok with losing the BP's if the WAllies overcome my convoy protection. I expect to get those BP's N/D'39/J/F'40 since there should be bad weather and the Kriegsmarine is more powerful than anything the WAllies can throw at it in the Baltic. In M/A'40 there is also a likelyhood of bad weather at some point, if not then I keep making gains on the main front and happily lose the BP's(if the WAllies overcome the convoy protection) in exchange of an entire turns worth of fair or rain weather. Remember, every turn I send out SCS's into the Baltic I am sending them to the 4 box, 1 box, and zero box...at the end of each turn during the end of turn re-base...the 4 box assets move to the 3 box, the 1 box moves to the zero box(for next turn cp protection), and the zero box SCS's go home. I will also hold back a crappy 3pt FTR that can react into the zero box if weather permits. My style Fall Gelb is meant to keep Germany on a M/J(no later than J/A) scheduled capture of Paris. If turn ends, initiatives, and weather rolls really continually screw me, then S/O'40. With average luck, I expect to take out France by the end of M/J'40. At that point I am free to take a naval action. If France survives, then I keep taking the BP hit if the WAllies can deal with the Kreigsmarine...either way, the WAllies are also losing naval assets to combat actions in the Baltic. After France falls I crush anything in Fredrickshaven, and the WAllies better not have anything in the Baltic or it dies at end turn. If they want to send NAV's and FTR's, then those are fewer FTR's I need to deal with in France. France is the primary objective, not the 2.25/3BP's. Of course BP's are VERY important in this game, but sometimes players lose sight of more important issues such as: 1. Time, and 2. Strategic positions/objectives.
C

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

The Allied threat with Frederickhaven is to send naval units into the Baltic. How long can the Germans stand to lose 3 or 4 resources per turn?

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

The CW can build lots of 2 point Infantry units and meet their commitments around the globe. And as soon as the weather goes bad, they can base out of Frederikshavn and the Germans really have to work hard to remove them. When the sun comes out or shortly before they can evacuate if the Germans threaten them. Meanwhile they can attrition the German naval assets in the Baltic. Winnie would be proud.