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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:16:56 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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Status: offline 		Good morning - Tithe. 

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 5911
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:17:40 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		New page, first thing in the morning.  Have to celebrate life's little milestones.  

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 5912
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:18:00 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 5913
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:43:58 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		Howdy doodly-do!

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Post #: 5914
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:44:54 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Tithe....Lousey start to the morning. Neither newspaper delivered, rainey nasty day. And a broken coffee maker. Oh well. As they used to say , "if you eat a frog first thing in the morning , your day probably won't get any worse".

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Post #: 5915
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 12:45:06 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I knew that!


Youre not "outside".......youre a denizen.


I knew that word would take hold!

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"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



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Post #: 5916
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 1:03:35 PM   
Grollub


Posts: 6674
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From: Lulea, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America



I call your and raise you by


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Post #: 5917
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 2:43:47 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America



I call your and raise you by



I'd call your raise, but I only have two cups left in my thermos.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 5918
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 2:52:31 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Hello Mike and Per!

Working all day while sport is attracting me...


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Post #: 5919
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 3:56:25 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Time to go home after work...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 5920
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 4:20:09 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Leo, I don't think KGr 100 has any special pathfinder abilities, but I could be wrong.

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Post #: 5921
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 4:33:45 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
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Status: offline 		Last day of vacation for a few weeks.

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Post #: 5922
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 4:36:23 PM   
Grollub


Posts: 6674
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From: Lulea, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America



I call your and raise you by



I'd call your raise, but I only have two cups left in my thermos.

Phew, got away with that bluff then


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Post #: 5923
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 4:36:55 PM   
Grollub


Posts: 6674
Joined: 10/9/2005
From: Lulea, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Hello Mike and Per!

Working all day while sport is attracting me...


My sympathies

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Post #: 5924
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:12:08 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Hello Mike and Per!

Working all day while sport is attracting me...



Working all day while AE languishes......

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Post #: 5925
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:12:43 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
As they used to say , "if you eat a frog first thing in the morning , your day probably won't get any worse".


They don't say that anymore because they found out that frog legs are tasty!

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Post #: 5926
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:40:07 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

You disagree that it was a tactical air force not a strategic one?


I disagreed that the Luftwaffe was little more than an extention of the army. It ended up that way in the end, (on the Eastern Front), but due to circumstance....not doctrine. The Luftwaffe developed a fully congnizant operational doctrine that included a strategic component. Tactical support operations were stressed for those missions which would be assigned to ground support and it was developed to a level far superior to the Allies who had some catching up to do. When first starting a major campaign in strength, such as in Poland, the West, and Barbarossa, the Luftwaffe's first primary mission was acheivement of air superiority followed by interdicition.


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Post #: 5927
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:46:14 PM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		I would agree...just not at all sure that was what T was trying to say. It would be interesting to peruse their 'strategic component' ideas. Most of their doctrines were developed in Spain where they used 'strategic' bombing maybe once, at Guernica? I don't know as I'm not overly familiar with that war.

Probably depends on what you define as 'strategic'. I would argue that interdiction and air superiority are usually more tactical than a strategic operations, but I'm sure I'll get shouted down on that one by the traditional definitions.

My personal view on the difference is that 'strategic' operates against the nation and the economy, whereas tactical operates against the military arm. I think that is how most people think of it.


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Post #: 5928
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:47:50 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Never said that the Luftwaffe was an "extension" of the German Army, only that it was intended to work closely with it, and thus never developed a meaningful strategic capability.

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Post #: 5929
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 5:58:29 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Never said that the Luftwaffe was an "extension" of the German Army, only that it was intended to work closely with it, and thus never developed a meaningful strategic capability.


ah but therein lies the misconception. The general impression was that the Luftwaffe was designed with army support as it's primary mission as a whole. It wasn't. It had a strongly developed ground support component, but the overall Luftwaffe was much more. It even researched the strategic component but yes, it wasn't greatly developed because the Germans didn't think that the major premise behind it (the destruction of civilian morale and willpower), had much merit. They were right on that score! So to critique German air defense and beaming abilties due to "mainly intended to work closely with the army" is wrong from what i've read up on recently.


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Post #: 5930
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 6:06:08 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I would agree...just not at all sure that was what T was trying to say. It would be interesting to peruse their 'strategic component' ideas. Most of their doctrines were developed in Spain where they used 'strategic' bombing maybe once, at Guernica? I don't know as I'm not overly familiar with that war.


IIRC, according to author James S. Corum who's book on the Luftwaffe's development shatters alot of myths (allegedly due to his contention that most authors do not use 1st hand Ger language source material) regarding the Luftwaffe's doctrine and development, Guernica was not intended as a strategic target or a "terror raid" as it would later be called. Rather it was an interdiction mission on a vital supply and transport hub. That it was also a major urban area as well is what the Press would later label as the world's first terror attack. Could be argued either way i suppose. Like Dresden, there's an entire book written on the subject i've seen on the shelves recently.

quote:


Probably depends on what you define as 'strategic'. I would argue that interdiction and air superiority are usually more tactical than a strategic operations, but I'm sure I'll get shouted down on that one by the traditional definitions.

My personal view on the difference is that 'strategic' operates against the nation and the economy, whereas tactical operates against the military arm. I think that is how most people think of it.



For me....i define air superiority and interdiction as operational level missions, designed to enhance and faciliatate an overall campaign. Tactical operations involve ground support missions. The former were generally acheived using the medium bombers primarily (+ DB's), whilest the reverse was true for the ground support component. Strategic bombing targets a nation's heart...it's civilian and industry component.


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Post #: 5931
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 6:21:01 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		That gives us a tactical/operational Luftwaffe, but not a strategic one. I don't buy the "they didn't think strategic bombing had merit" line, and would like to know the reasoning behind that thought.

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Post #: 5932
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 6:25:59 PM   
Mynok


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I can buy a distinction between tactical and operational, and we agree on what strategic means.

I'm curious about the Luftwaffe on strategic bombing like T. It's hard to argue that they acted like they didn't think it had merit since they designed..what...one? two? strategic airframes (HE-177 is the one I'm thinking of). But was it really that considered of a plan or simply a matter of building what they needed and could.


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Post #: 5933
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 6:44:54 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Good discussion, gents.  I think I've noticed a point where you have missed each other.  Nik mentioned that Germany didn't see the merit of "(the destruction of civilian morale and willpower)."  T is, I believe, thinking of strategic bombing as having 2 targets, civilian and industrial.  As the war played out, the civilian populations on all sides proved much tougher than initially thought.  I'm sure even Germany would agree that strategic bombing of industry ended up having quite a bit of merit.  

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 5934
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 6:52:58 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		ZOING!(TM)

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Post #: 5935
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 7:26:46 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		BTW, if the Germans didn't think that area bombing had any merit, how do you explain Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, etc?

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Post #: 5936
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 7:30:11 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline 		cold, rainy, foggy. Quite a miserable day outside.

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Post #: 5937
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 7:32:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		If I may re: strategic bombing:

Didn't Germany try strategic bombing of military and civilian centers en masse? Something Londoners called 'The Blitz'? Sure, we can argue the rationale for how it got started (accidental first bombing of London, subsequent reprisals for bombing German cities in kind) and its merits (whether or not it 'worked'), but they did try strategic bombing during the war. If the Germans believed that it 'didn't have merit' before the Battle of Britain and The Blitz, then why on earth did they try to make it work?

Now, maybe they tried it and didn't like it or thought it was an ineffective bleeding of their bomber forces for little tangible gain. But that's a different argument than an antebellum policy of 'no strategic bombing'.

I think the Luftwaffe tried to implement distance strategic bombing with an air fleet that was decidedly inferior for the task at hand. Between the Dornier's small bomb load and pathetic defensive gunnery and the Me-109's inferior range, their instruments were just not up to the task. They found out only after they tried.

Would things have been more successful if their air frames had been more apt for long range strategic bombing (e.g., large numbers of massed 4e bombers)?

Maybe the rationale for their failure to successfully implement strategic bombing was a failure in foresight above all else. A failure to perceive the strategic need and plan for production numbers of a suitable 4e heavy bomber. In any case, the Germans did, at one point, believe in it-they just failed in execution through poor foresight.

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Post #: 5938
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 7:33:11 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

cold, rainy, foggy. Quite a miserable day outside.


Otherwise known as a pleasant summer day in London.

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 5939
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 7:33:23 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

BTW, if the Germans didn't think that area bombing had any merit, how do you explain Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, etc?

DOH! That's what I get for typing slowly!

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Post #: 5940
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