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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:14:41 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

I can only think that those who have only ever bought computer wargamers aren't real wargamers otherwise they wouldn't baulk at �56 for a game. Real wargamers expect to pay a lot:

The Devil's Cauldron $190.00

Atlantic Navies:

Domestic Orders (USA, but not PA)
$137.50 (incl. 10% S&H)

Domestic Orders (PA only, incl. 6% sales tax)
$145.00 (incl. 10% S&H)

Canadian Orders
$150.00 (incl. 20% S&H)

Rest of the World
$162.50 (incl. 30% S&H)

I think the difference is that buying a real wargame for $75 then I'm going to get a shiny map and some sexy counters With a PC game I don't get that, there's no physical sense of owning it.

Which is one reason why I always buy the boxed version of the PC game. At least I have a disk and box to put it in!

In all honesty I'd stop and think before paying �56 for a PC game regardless of what type of game it is, I'd stop and think seriously before paying more than �30. I paid the price for AE after playing and enjoyind UV and WitP and I have no regrets, but I wouldn't pay that price often.

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Post #: 24691

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:16:28 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hurricane IID and IV were hardly outclassed in the front line...

Maybe not in the AT role, but the SU was hardly short of ground attack aircraft by the time the II and IV started to be delivered.

True.

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Post #: 24692

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:17:03 PM

sprior

Posts: 8596
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From: Portsmouth, UK
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I just don't have the time to play it.

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"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
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Post #: 24693

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:18:00 PM

sprior

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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

I always buy the boxed version of the PC game.

Long gone are those great manuals you used to get in the box...

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

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Post #: 24694

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:18:53 PM

anarchyintheuk

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From: Dallas
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Wished the WW1 Gold had a printed manual. That said, I'm really enjoying the game.

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Post #: 24695

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:19:35 PM

sprior

Posts: 8596
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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

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Post #: 24696

LOG! - 6/2/2010 5:45:09 PM

Nikademus

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From: Alien spacecraft
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I'd like to get it...but i only just recently got BTR/BoB. It'll have to wait a bit.

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Post #: 24697

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:46:26 PM

thegreatwent

Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

"The Russians were generally unimpressed with the initial Lend-Lease planes they received. (Hurricanes and Tomahawks). They were mainly compared unfavorably with the new Yak-1 which was considered superior to both planes. The LaGG-3 was a disapointment in service, being found to be an underperformer, especially at lower altitudes and a poor climber. The good news was that the design was eventually evolved into the much more effective La-5. MiG-3 was designed as a high altitude fighter but ended up doing it's primary fighting at lower altitudes and suffered as a result.

Part of the problem with the Hurricanes was that the specimens they received were not in the best shape and quickly degenerated further given the very low octane gas used by the Russians at the time. Many of their pilots were also used to the far more nimble (but slower) I-16 Ishak so the 'adjustment' period was difficult...the tactics required to be successful were very different. The whole "Better chances in an Ishak vs a Hurricane" actually originate from a New Zealand pilot flying restored I-16's in the 90's? who also flew Hurricanes. It was his opinion that British pilots might have fared better had they flown I-16's vs. Hurricanes. I take that comment with a grain of salt. In fairness...the I-16, while obsolecent could still be a formidable opponent. It was one of the most nimble monoplanes of the war and could turn on a dime. While vulnerable to catching fire from the flanks, it held the edge in head on attacks vs. the faster 109 (the latter with a vulnerable radiator)

Russians liked the Tomahawk best for their radios. (something Russian fighter pilots didn't have at the time) and it's turning attributes, but mirrored Commonwealth pilot comments about it's vertical disadvantages vs. the 109. The P-39 was the one great exception to the general negative reaction to LL aircraft. They loved the Airacobra.

A lot of the first MkII Hurricanes the Russians got were rebuilt MkIs, so they were already well worn. Really by 1942 the Hurricane was outclassed in front line roles. We only sent Tomahawks because we didn't really want them either Some MkIIds were sent, which would have been a useful ground attack aircraft, but by the time they were received the SU were building plenty of IL-2s. The only British aircraft that the SU really wanted were Spitfires and by the time they got those they were obselescent MkVs that had already seen service in the Mid East. Most of the British LL was either used or unwanted by us, and truth be told probably by the SU as well.

The VVS weren't too keen on the P-47 either from memory."

Thanks Dixie and Nik. After reading Yefim's book I was baffled by the Soviet response to the western planes as his research seemed well based on source information. Tired aircraft and engines that didn't respond well to iffy fuel goes part of the way to reconcile Soviet and US/UK views. Still why the difference between the P-40 and P-39? They both used Allison V-1710 engines and performed well at low altitudes, the P-39 going on to be a great race plane. Was the cannon armament that much of a deal maker or were there other criteria?

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Post #: 24698

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:49:29 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

It's a cracking game alright, it's more complex than it appears at first. I may regret some of the choices I've recently made in my game, with France getting near to collapse I'm pinning my hopes on the Brits retaking Lille to restore some pride in the Entente. I've managed to surround Metz with the French as well but it'll take an age to break that place down.

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Post #: 24699

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 5:53:20 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

I'm now about to embark on a new series of raids in my BTR PBEM with swift, it's time to see if I can create some firestorms before the winter starts

Once I've worked out that tactic then it'll be the Big B for the boys

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Post #: 24700

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 6:02:49 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
Still why the difference between the P-40 and P-39? They both used Allison V-1710 engines and performed well at low altitudes, the P-39 going on to be a great race plane. Was the cannon armament that much of a deal maker or were there other criteria?

The Soviets considered the P-39 to be superior in the vertical axis in particular and best suited to their new Eagle Strike tactics and Bookshelf formations. The armament, including the cannon was considered more than sufficient to blast German targets at close range. They dealt with the Airacobra's "vices" with typical Russian stoicism. They kept flying it right through to the end of the war.

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Post #: 24701

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 7:19:57 PM

thegreatwent

Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

quote:

The Soviets considered the P-39 to be superior in the vertical axis in particular and best suited to their new Eagle Strike tactics and Bookshelf formations. The armament, including the cannon was considered more than sufficient to blast German targets at close range. They dealt with the Airacobra's "vices" with typical Russian stoicism. They kept flying it right through to the end of the war.

Good to know. The more I learn about the Eastern Front the more foreign it feels. While Glantz and others are doing great research one always has the sense that there is more. Once you grasp one part, Stalingrad for instance, you then discover that Operation Mars was occurring at the same time. The scale is incredible, Stalingrad was huge and yet only a part of the whole. One's mind retreats and then settles on the air war.

Planes. I know something about the air war so this should be more accessible. But wait the rules are different here as well. While the map is still huge, range is less a factor

. Yes the factories had moved out of range for the Germans, but the air war was fought at close range. Some pilots flying five or more sorties a day. Ground support plays a much greater factor in arrangement of commands, aircraft operating as a form of artillery. In essence adding a limited vertical component to the battlefield. While ground support missions were part of the Pacific and Western Theatres the US and UK air commands operated virtually autonomously compared to their Soviet counterparts.

Now pack this confusing mess under years of cold war politics and cultural differences and serve. No wonder one has the urge to simplify what occurred in the East, it is easier to grasp that way. It is interesting as well.

When I started playing WitP I would have said I knew a great deal about the Pacific. I had family that had served there, read books about Midway and Guadacanal. Even played simulations of Coral Sea and watched films and documentaries. Well now I know different and will confidently say I know a little bit about the PTO.

With War in the East coming soon, I'll say that I know little about that theater and hope to someday know a bit more. I will probably get as much enjoyment from researching the time period as playing the game, the game providing focus for an otherwise intimidatingly broad subject

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Post #: 24702

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 7:48:03 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

I'm trying my best to be a bad influence.

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Post #: 24703

RE: LOG! - 6/2/2010 7:48:41 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'd like to get it...but i only just recently got BTR/BoB. It'll have to wait a bit.

I'll take your gf's side and blame it on book acquisition.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 24704

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 7:52:35 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
Still why the difference between the P-40 and P-39? They both used Allison V-1710 engines and performed well at low altitudes, the P-39 going on to be a great race plane. Was the cannon armament that much of a deal maker or were there other criteria?

The Soviets considered the P-39 to be superior in the vertical axis in particular and best suited to their new Eagle Strike tactics and Bookshelf formations. The armament, including the cannon was considered more than sufficient to blast German targets at close range. They dealt with the Airacobra's "vices" with typical Russian stoicism. They kept flying it right through to the end of the war.

Reminds me of that joke Army people used to tell: Two Sov tank generals sitting in a cafe in Paris, sucking down vodka, and one says, "By the way Pavel Dimitrovich, who won the air war?"

What airplanes do, and how their specs are evaluated, is based on just who is doing the evaluating. The US AirFarce sits in the stratosphere and makes pronunciamento about ground support (about which they know nothing), while the poor dumb ba$tards on the ground are exposed and rant about lack of air support because of air superiority priorities (about which they, too, know nothing).

Most plane evals, on the Internet, are done by the US, where all the test pilots are AirFarce strato/hotrods so if it aint knockers up, it sucks. Specs are specs, but they have to be applied appropriate to the mission (something the AirFarce can't quite get through it's egotistical, pointed, and very small, head). I much prefer the Sov evaluations of planes. They knew the difference and maximized it.

I also appreciate that the game stuff was done by Elf, who is a Navy puke, who understands this stuff.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 24705

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 7:55:18 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

It's a cracking game alright, it's more complex than it appears at first. I may regret some of the choices I've recently made in my game, with France getting near to collapse I'm pinning my hopes on the Brits retaking Lille to restore some pride in the Entente. I've managed to surround Metz with the French as well but it'll take an age to break that place down.

I've planned poorly and played poorly. On my first try I'm about to lose Paris in Nov/Dec 1914 probably.

Been waiting on someone to update their aar. No mention of names of course.

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Post #: 24706

RE: LOG! - 6/2/2010 8:01:23 PM

Nikademus

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From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'd like to get it...but i only just recently got BTR/BoB. It'll have to wait a bit.

I'll take your gf's side and blame it on book acquisition.

well that....and this beauty.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 24707

AFB LOG! - 6/2/2010 8:03:06 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
Most plane evals, on the Internet, are done by the US, where all the test pilots are AirFarce strato/hotrods so if it aint knockers up, it sucks. Specs are specs, but they have to be applied appropriate to the mission (something the AirFarce can't quite get through it's egotistical, pointed, and very small, head). I much prefer the Sov evaluations of planes. They knew the difference and maximized it.

how DARE you dispute the FACTS.

the DATA is indisputible.

YOU are an AXIS FANBOY.

Bring onto me......a SHRUBBERY!

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Post #: 24708

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:10:10 PM

Mynok

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Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Wished the WW1 Gold had a printed manual. That said, I'm really enjoying the game.

Describe how the combat works in more detail. I don't have a good WWI game and this looks pretty good.

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Post #: 24709

THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:10:36 PM

thegreatwent

Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

Drat, not fast enough

< Message edited by thegreatwent -- 6/2/2010 8:11:23 PM >

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Post #: 24710

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:20:03 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

It's a cracking game alright, it's more complex than it appears at first. I may regret some of the choices I've recently made in my game, with France getting near to collapse I'm pinning my hopes on the Brits retaking Lille to restore some pride in the Entente. I've managed to surround Metz with the French as well but it'll take an age to break that place down.

I've planned poorly and played poorly. On my first try I'm about to lose Paris in Nov/Dec 1914 probably.

Been waiting on someone to update their aar. No mention of names of course.

I daresay he's been busy attending a wedding, doing guard duty, fighting a war in the Pacific, bombing the Reich and trying to defeat the RAF in order to allow Sealion.

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Post #: 24711

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:21:59 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Wished the WW1 Gold had a printed manual. That said, I'm really enjoying the game.

Describe how the combat works in more detail. I don't have a good WWI game and this looks pretty good.

You don't have time for another game, Mister!

It does look pretty good to me, too.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 24712

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:23:01 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Wished the WW1 Gold had a printed manual. That said, I'm really enjoying the game.

Describe how the combat works in more detail. I don't have a good WWI game and this looks pretty good.

I disqualify myself from describing the combat system considering how bad I currently suck at this game. This thread at ageod does nicely(especially #1 and #8) . . . .

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=11524

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Post #: 24713

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:25:30 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

That said, I'm really enjoying the game

Get thee behind me Satan!

It's a cracking game alright, it's more complex than it appears at first. I may regret some of the choices I've recently made in my game, with France getting near to collapse I'm pinning my hopes on the Brits retaking Lille to restore some pride in the Entente. I've managed to surround Metz with the French as well but it'll take an age to break that place down.

I've planned poorly and played poorly. On my first try I'm about to lose Paris in Nov/Dec 1914 probably.

Been waiting on someone to update their aar. No mention of names of course.

I daresay he's been busy attending a wedding, doing guard duty, fighting a war in the Pacific, bombing the Reich and trying to defeat the RAF in order to allow Sealion.

Attempting world domination leaves little time for the quieter things. Like they say, evil schemes don't just hatch themselves.

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 24714

RE: AFB LOG! - 6/2/2010 8:32:11 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Bring onto me......a SHRUBBERY!

Oh, great and powerful Zod, I bring unto you, a shrubbery. It's a bit crispy; the US AirFarce ignored it, but the Navy, Marines, and the Sovs, did an antler dance on it before I could pluck it out of the ground. Sorry 'bout that.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 24715

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 6/2/2010 8:33:23 PM

Grollub

Posts: 6674
Joined: 10/9/2005
From: Lulea, Sweden
Status: offline

Driveby SLR.

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Post #: 24716

RE: AFB LOG! - 6/2/2010 8:36:42 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Bring onto me......a SHRUBBERY!

Oh, great and powerful Zod, I bring unto you, a shrubbery. It's a bit crispy; the US AirFarce ignored it, but the Navy, Marines, and the Sovs, did an antler dance on it before I could pluck it out of the ground. Sorry 'bout that.