RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout..

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout..

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RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:22:43 PM

Smeulders

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The results are a bell curve with the left end being the raid didn't find Pearl Harbor.� (I had that happen in a game with Dixie.� I know it can happen.)� The right end of the bell curve is what happened above.� Test the Pearl Harbor attack 30 times and take the average.� If the average is similar to the above, then complain.� The above is an anomoly, just like my attack against Dixie.�

That's even better then what I had, raid did find Pearl, but only managed to sink a CA, AVD and DM. Everything smaller then a BB will be out of the yards in less then 40 days and only 3 BB will have to head back to the WC, the others only need a couple of weeks of yard time.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 31

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:23:09 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The results are a bell curve with the left end being the raid didn't find Pearl Harbor.� (I had that happen in a game with Dixie.� I know it can happen.)� The right end of the bell curve is what happened above.� Test the Pearl Harbor attack 30 times and take the average.� If the average is similar to the above, then complain.� The above is an anomoly, just like my attack against Dixie.�

Try it yourself. You will find that the only thing that comes up "below average" are Japanese A/C losses.
And my point was that "the right end of the bell curve" couldn't be what happened above, it should be below it. The top of the "bell curve" should be exacty the historic results..., maybe even less. There was plenty that could have gone wrong tactically with the attack, but very little that could have been better.

The game provides plenty of opportunity for KB to launch a-historic follow up attacks..., we ought to keep the original one within the bounds of reality.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 32

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:29:59 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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Mike, I'd do it if I had the time. I just think that claiming the game is broken without testing is wasting time.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. So is everyone else.

_____________________________

Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 33

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:29:59 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 34

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:29:59 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 35

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 6:54:47 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Trying to get to 10k quicker?

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 36

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 8:13:00 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Mike, I'd do it if I had the time.� I just think that claiming the game is broken without testing is wasting time. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.� So is everyone else.

I have tested it. Throughout the AE developement phase. But you aren't the type to accept anyone's experiance but your own..., so I suggest you test it so you will understand what I'm talking about.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 37

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 8:34:10 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Hey Mike,

Would you accept my experience? I ran over 50 PH attack tests not long before release, then re-ran 50 more tests with the release build and found that the averages for BB losses were roughly historical. There's definitely a bell curve and extreme results are possible, but for the one day attack the results are about right.

If KB attacks for more than one day, of course, that changes things. The information I've seen suggests that KB could have continued attacking if it had chosen to do so. More importantly, the subject matter experts on the team believe that as well and they know a lot more about it than I do.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 38

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 8:44:11 PM

AcePylut

Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
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I'd support the bell curve. I"ve been plotting the Jap First Turn vs AI for over a month now (I have an allied PBEM and allied AI game going on too), and every time I get to a "stopping point" for the evening, I run the first turn. SO far, I've had one turn over the last 20-30 or so that produced a PH butchery. Most of the turns produce semi-historical results (2-3 BB sunk), a couple of turns produced less than that, and oen turn produced nothing (Kates decided to not carry torps, the most heavily damaged Allied BB had some 22 float damage and 30ish sys damage).

I put more nells/bettys in SE Asia on Naval Attack, and probably sink the POW and Reuplse 70% of the time. Sink one of them another 25% of the time, and probably once or twice I've not sunk either of them. This is with "focused nav search and attack" (I LOOOOVVVVVEEEE the ability to set search arcs - it soooo lets you focus your naval attacks to a certain sector)

All in all, I support the bell curve in what I've seen.

_____________________________

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 39

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 10:33:16 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
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KB could have stayed for another day but they probably would have been out of their modified torpedoes and 16" shells/bombs.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 40

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 10:52:54 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Others are far more expert on this subject than I am, but I have it on good authority that they had enough torps and bombs for at least a second day of attacks.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 41

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/1/2009 11:08:17 PM

Smeulders

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I put more nells/bettys in SE Asia on Naval Attack, and probably sink the POW and Reuplse 70% of the time.� Sink one of them another 25% of the time, and probably once or twice I've not sunk either of them.� This is with "focused nav search and attack" (I LOOOOVVVVVEEEE the ability to set search arcs - it soooo lets you focus your naval attacks to a certain sector)

This would be house rule material I think. It's one thing to not be able to hold Force Z in reserve, it's quite another that the Japanese player will be focusing on the one or two hexes were they know it'll appear.

(in reply to AcePylut)

Post #: 42

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/15/2009 10:12:08 PM

Battleline

Posts: 426
Joined: 10/5/2006
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I, too, have the Pearl Harbor guided torpedo problems.
Every single time, the battleships get blasted, mainly by torps. I have played it several times CPU vs. CPU and get the same results. And then the game crashes on Dec. 8, but that's a different story!
I can't get how the ships historically berthed in positions where they can't be hit by torpedoes, the Tennessee and Maryland, are taking multiple fish hits. This shouldn't be happening! It should be an easy fix to put something in where those ships shouldn't be taking torpedo hits, unless the ships next to them are blown out of the way.
Another PH item is that there should be some type of chance that sunk ships can be raised, like the West Virginia and California historically were. Maybe they're not able to be put back into service once raised, such as what happened to the Oklahoma.

(in reply to Smeulders)

Post #: 43

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/15/2009 10:29:01 PM

AcePylut

Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I put more nells/bettys in SE Asia on Naval Attack, and probably sink the POW and Reuplse 70% of the time.� Sink one of them another 25% of the time, and probably once or twice I've not sunk either of them.� This is with "focused nav search and attack" (I LOOOOVVVVVEEEE the ability to set search arcs - it soooo lets you focus your naval attacks to a certain sector)

This would be house rule material I think. It's one thing to not be able to hold Force Z in reserve, it's quite another that the Japanese player will be focusing on the one or two hexes were they know it'll appear.

Luckily, my opponent for this particular game doesn't care what I do (AI hehehe).

But, even with a "focused" nav search, I've only been knocking both of them down about 70% of the time.

I love the focused arcs feature. My favorite on in the game. Love to be able to have all my ASW on the "one path" that my xports might be coming in.

_____________________________

(in reply to Smeulders)

Post #: 44

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/16/2009 10:07:22 AM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
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quote:

I can't get how the ships historically berthed in positions where they can't be hit by torpedoes, the Tennessee and Maryland, are taking multiple fish hits

This is not modded so the Pearl your attacking is a long battleship line 1 wide..

Ben

(in reply to Battleline)

Post #: 45

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/17/2009 5:45:02 AM

Xxzard

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Arizona
Status: offline

That is a good point, but it would require a special code for only the PH attack on day1. Obviously ship positions are not taken into account at any other time, and it would be very difficult to implement that sort of thing at PH only.

I agree with the bell curve assesment of PH losses, this seems right and so far mostly mirrored in AAR results.

(in reply to bklooste)

Post #: 46

RE: Ouch! Pearl Harbour Wipeout.. - 9/17/2009 7:02:46 AM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
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Losses should prob be a bit higher than historical since side by side ships are not modeled.

(in reply to Xxzard)

Post #: 47

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