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RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:41:09 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		What are you going to do about the IJN sub-building program?

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Post #: 31
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:42:12 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What are you going to do about the IJN sub-building program?


Haven't discussed it.. not sure I want to meddle with it, frankly, it's not a subject I'm familiar with. We may leave it about the same, at least for this iteration.

Edit - it's not that I'm opposed to the idea of some changes, but I don't have any ideas!

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Post #: 32
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:43:43 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's a pet peeve of mine, because it's one of two fields (the other being ASW escorts) where I think the Japs failed the worst.

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Post #: 33
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:44:13 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's a pet peeve of mine, because it's one of two fields (the other being ASW escorts) where I think the Japs failed the worst.


Well, I'd be happy to mod in Terminus' Ultimate Sub Program.

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Post #: 34
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:46:09 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I happen to have one ready, actually, although you should probably confer this with your compadres.

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Post #: 35
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:47:18 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I happen to have one ready, actually, although you should probably confer this with your compadres.


Yep. We'll see what they think when they wake up - oops, it's 3:47 US time

Have one ready? But I want to play Doomsday!

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Post #: 36
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:54:20 AM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
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quote:

But I want to play Doomsday!

HoI2 Doomsday?

Sounds really interesting so far. I had some of the ideas you have in my IATB, but never planned as detailed as you do. I always like to have more BBs and BCs and with the surface combat model in AE, they'll be a powerful tool when visiting an enemy landing site!

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Post #: 37
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 9:56:56 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		Terminus is exhausting himself working on the next official small scenario for AE, Doomsday (1945 invasion of Japan).

And thanks! Hopefully it'll be fun and flexible. The great thing about AE is that conversions and the 'construction ceiling' mean you can essentially add however many Japanese ship classes you like and the Japanese player can build whatever he wants, limited only by the resources he has available to him. Lots of flexibility inherent in the game, as long as a scenario designer provides the player with choices.

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 8/1/2009 9:57:10 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 10:04:59 AM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Yes!
I read once that it should be possible to force the player to pay naval/merchant shipyard points for upgrades - while this wasn't confirmed so far.

If this works, I have a simple idea that sounds great (to me): I add shiphulks to the game, that can do nothing but convert. The player now ill be able to choose what they convert to: CV, BB, BC, CA, CL, CLAA, DD or SS. If chosen, the hulk will be turned into this type of ship, added to the building list again with the correct time it takes to build it and will be completed after some month or some years as chosen type. If it really works that I can make the Jap pay for conversions, I may give the Jap player full choice about what he wants to start building this way. He'll only be limited by his shipyard capacitys, which sounds reasonable to me. This ignores the slipways and drydocks, but that's acceptable to me.

So one might add 100 or even 500 hulks and on dezember 7th, the Jap may choose what ships he wants from late 42 on. This would reflect my idea of getting FULL control over all of Japans elements when the game begins.


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Post #: 39
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 12:52:11 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Iron Storm was my first PBEM years ago against 1EyedJack (Michael). We got to mid-42, before computer problems forced me to quit.   I do not have the reference material nor the knowledge on what some realistic "what if's" would be appropiate for the Allies. So, any feedback given to Alikchi on this is appreciated as I will be the Allied player vs John 3rd.

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Post #: 40
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 2:40:40 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

Terminus is exhausting himself working on the next official small scenario for AE, Doomsday (1945 invasion of Japan).


I suspect that the scenario name will be "Downfall" -- the Allied code name for the planned overall invasion of Japan to consist of November, 1945 landings in Kyushu (Operation Olympic; later recoded as Operation Majestic) and March, 1946 landings on Honshu (Operation Coronet).


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Post #: 41
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/1/2009 2:51:30 PM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

Terminus is exhausting himself working on the next official small scenario for AE, Doomsday (1945 invasion of Japan).


I suspect that the scenario name will be "Downfall" -- the Allied code name for the planned overall invasion of Japan to consist of November, 1945 landings in Kyushu (Operation Olympic; later recoded as Operation Majestic) and March, 1946 landings on Honshu (Operation Coronet).



Crap, I meant to type Downfall. Late night brainfart.

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Post #: 42
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/3/2009 6:44:40 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Designers:

I did a bunch of research over the weekend.  One does have to do SOMETHING while in a quasi-jail scenario!  Books used include:  Kaigun, The Reluctant Admiral:  Yamamoto, Carriers and Destroyers of Japan, and Cruisers of World War Two.  This is my Mod Proposal:

The Yamamoto Vision:

4th Circle Plan

2xImproved Shokaku-Class         
---Increased durability
---3.9” AA Guns
---Mid-1943

CV Taiho
---Late-43

2xCA Ibuki                                
---Suzuyu-Class
---Substitute 4 3.9” AA for the 4 5” AA
---Late-43

6xLight Cruisers
---Advance all 6 CL by six months
---4 Agano-Class (no change)
---2 Oyodo-Class
-----Built as CLAA instead of Sub HQ Ships
-----Substitute 4 Pairs of 3.9” guns instead of 2 Pair as designed
-----Reduce Plane capacity to Agano-Class

The Plan mentions the building of 6 CVE.  I could find no mention of these ANYWHERE.  Ideas?

DD and SS as already described….

Air Additions:                        (Dec 7th Start in Home Islands)
Carrier Trained:  81 Planes—1 Zero, 1 Val, 1 Kate Daitai
Carrier Capable:  81 Planes—1 Zero, 1 Val, 1 Kate Daitai
Land-Based:  2 Betty Daitai, 1 Emily Daitai, and 1 Jake Daitai


5th Circle Plan

2xTaiho-Class
---Mid-44

Unryu
---As ordered with same due date

2xB-64/65 Supercruisers
---Thomas has stats
---Mid-1944

32 DD
---12 are Moon-Class AA

45 SS

Upgrades:
Late-43 on sees the replacement of CA, CV, CVL, BC, and BB 5” Secondary with new 3.9” turrets.

Shadow Fleet Conversions:

Start with Shoho Operational with Zuiho
Advance Ryuho six months
Leave Junyo/Hiyo at regular date but allow for ‘fixed’ engines—30 Knots

CS
---Nisshin completed as CVL on her existing due date.  Becomes lead-CVL of that Class
---Allow Chitose/Chiyoda to immediately upgrade (12 month conversion)
---Allow Mizuho to convert into this class but takes 15 months due to upgrading engines

Notes:
I need a few days (hours on the computer) to write a narrative explaining these changes but ALL of them apply to conversations Yamamoto had within the Navy from 1936-1940 when he served as Head of the Aeronautics Department and then Navy Vice-Minister.

Economy:

Expand HI by 60-120 (reflects increased steel production and precision tooling factories)
Expand Shipyards so that all DDs/SSs would be built at the civilian yards detailed in Kaigun to free-up/allow for several new slipways in the four naval yards.  
Expand some Aircraft Production Lines/Pools at start of war:  Zero, Val, Kate, Betty, and Emily
Accelerate research into all Zero Variants:  M3a, M5, M7  NO JACKS!
Advance Judy and Jill production dates as well.

When I get some more time (later in the week) I will write more to explain some of these ideas more fully.  With the exception of the 3.9” Guns, CA Ibuki’s, and Supercruisers, this is a realistic vision of what Yamamoto WANTED to see happen with 4th Circle construction and 5th Circle Planning.


Thoughts?

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Post #: 43
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/3/2009 6:48:01 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		This Mod would be an upgrade of the Japanese Navy but it isn't out of the realm of possiblity. 

I sent the above email to those who are contributing and bouncing ideas around.  Should note that there are a couple of modifications to the above note as compared to the email message.


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Post #: 44
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/3/2009 7:42:28 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:


I have a proposition for you. You may be aware that the guy who designed the Zero (Horikoshi) was supposed to move straight on into the A7M, but the IJN shuttled his team over to work on the Jack. Cancel the Jack and you could probably have the A7M available by.. early 44, I'd say? And all the Zero-mods would arrive sooner as well, with the design team un-broken up. This would take a bit of work though, scrubbing the Jack from the scenario.. but it might be worth it, tell me what you think.



You may be aware that the IJN in 1939 bought the He 100 D design plus production jigs for license production. Three He 100 D-0 arrived in 1940, but neither plans nor jigs were delivered to Japan. If you scratch the Jack, replace it by the He 100 which might carry the IJN designation of J2Hei1 and become available in 8/41 (HA40 engine production provided, which might be the major availability driver for the type). For details see the WIKIPEDIA entry for "He 100". That aircraft is a clear candidate for any "what if" mod.

< Message edited by mikemike -- 8/3/2009 7:57:01 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/15/2009 2:31:28 AM   
bstarr


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: Texas, by God!
Status: offline 		Just now noticed this thread! Wow what an interesting scenario!

If you're open for suggestions, I've always thought the Oyodo class cruiser would have served the japs better if they had converted her into a CVL during construction. That would give the jap player/AI an armored CVL in the crucial early 43 time period (of course you have some 'kakus schduled for around this time, so it's not such a pressing need). I've also always had an unnatural love for those rare ships between CA and BB (like the Alaska class cruiser and the pocket battleships) so I would love to see the B65 project included. There was also mention of giving the allies some toys . . . well, I would love to see the Alaskas brought in early. And perhaps a greatly modified Ranger making the show in late 42.

Geez, I haven't rattled on like this since I was four years old looking in the toy section of the Sears Catalog before christmas. Gimme, gimme, gimme!

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Post #: 46
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/18/2009 9:27:04 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		FYI - John just called to say he got the hard copy of AE fianally, and will install it over the next few days. He's working a 11p to 7a shift and then is back for a 3p to 11p shift. he has Thursday off and will probably be able to wrap his head around AE somewhat. Then, I expect him to be back here beating on his drum.

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Post #: 47
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 8/20/2009 10:35:05 PM   
traskott


Posts: 1546
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline 		Great to see Iron Mod AE is working . As AFB, I would like to see some improvements on the other side of the hill, if it's posible.

************
A bit OT question: The Iron Mod "vanilla" had AI files or was only to play by PBEM?



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Post #: 48
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/11/2009 3:30:30 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		Just a short post to note that I am still interested in this, I pretty much agree with John's suggestions posted above, and I do still intend to start work as soon as the patch is out. :)

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Post #: 49
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/11/2009 9:32:32 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Erm, it's out now...

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Post #: 50
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/11/2009 9:34:03 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Erm, it's out now...


Give me credit for being only a few hours late!

Right, then. I'll start grinding away once I'm set on the morrow.

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Post #: 51
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/11/2009 10:04:16 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		"Grinding away"? Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

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Post #: 52
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/13/2009 7:41:31 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Grinding away"? Is that what you kids are calling it these days?


I refuse to confirm or deny these scurrilous allegations..


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Post #: 53
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/13/2009 8:59:16 AM   
Peterken

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 8/31/2009
Status: offline 		It is all ok about converting CA CL to CVL but wasn't the biggest problem for Nipon experiance and enough Pilots?


< Message edited by Peterken -- 9/13/2009 7:19:15 PM >

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Post #: 54
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/15/2009 9:20:51 PM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		Right. I'm staring at the editor. Anyone still interested? Short summation: two extra Shokakus plus other minor goodies constrained by realism and probability. Counterbalance: Force Z comes with a carrier as originally intended.

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 9/15/2009 9:22:44 PM >

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Post #: 55
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/15/2009 9:47:55 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		An extra Brit CV to balance two more Shokakus.... Not Hardly. How about another Yorktown between Hornet and Essex. I would think that if the USN got a big sniff of more CV in WestPac, they would be interested in some other form of investment.

One of my favorite wannabe mods is to upgrade and re-engine the Big Five. Makes for some interesting game play. Other stuff as well..



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Post #: 56
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/21/2009 3:24:30 PM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

You may be aware that the IJN in 1939 bought the He 100 D design plus production jigs for license production. Three He 100 D-0 arrived in 1940, but neither plans nor jigs were delivered to Japan. If you scratch the Jack, replace it by the He 100 which might carry the IJN designation of J2Hei1 and become available in 8/41 (HA40 engine production provided, which might be the major availability driver for the type). For details see the WIKIPEDIA entry for "He 100". That aircraft is a clear candidate for any "what if" mod.


One aspect of the original Projekt 1035 was the intent to capture the absolute speed record for Heinkel and Germany. Both Messerschmitt and Heinkel vied for this record before the war. Messerschmitt ultimately won that battle with the first prototype of the Me-209, but the He 100 briefly held the record when Heinkel test pilot Hans Dieterle flew the eighth prototype to 746.606 km/h (463.919 mph) on 30 March 1939. The third and eighth prototypes were specially modified for speed with unique outer wing panels of reduced span. The third prototype crashed during testing. The record flight was made using a special version of the DB 601 engine that offered 2,010 kW/2,700 hp) and had a service life of just 30 minutes. Prior to setting this absolute speed record over a short, measured course, Ernst Udet flew the second prototype to a 100 km (62 mi) closed course record of 634.32 km/h (391.15 mph) on 5 June 1938. Udet's record was apparently set using a standard DB 601a engine.

However isnt the Hien the Japanese version of this ? " And The Ki-61 was the last of the DB-601-powered fighters and it was soon overshadowed by fighters with more powerful engines. By the time it first flew in December 1941 – only one year after the Macchi's first flight and three years after the Bf 109E – the DB-601 was already underpowered compared to the new 1,120 kW (1,500 hp) inline or 1,491 kW (2,000 hp) radial engines being developed (and already nearing the mass-production stage) to power the next generation of combat aircraft: the P-47, Fw 190 and Bf 109 G. Moreover, the inline Ha-40 engine proved to be an unreliable powerplant."

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Post #: 57
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/21/2009 4:03:45 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's a pet peeve of mine, because it's one of two fields (the other being ASW escorts) where I think the Japs failed the worst.


Actually I'd like to know your thoughts on this issue. I can find where the Japanese had a bunch of boats planned to build in the late 1920s, but most of these were canceled due to the WNT. And even if produced, those boats would have been due for replacement before the war started.

Another possibility hinges on the fact that Germany did transfer 1 Type IXC U-boat to the Japanese. If they had copied it and put their own version into production, the submarine fleet would have had a major capability upgrade, even if it would still be sub-par when compared with USN capabilities. BTW, this was U-511 (later RO-500) that was sold in 1943. It is not in game, and I don't think it was ever actively deployed on a patrol.

I do have plans to add in a number of planned Tachibana class. I'm also considering adding in conversions that allow the Japanese player to convert more of the old destroyer classes into true ASW platforms (DEs by landing the Torpedo Tubes and adding Y-Guns in their place) since there will be an increase in the number of Minekaze, Kamikaze and Wakatake class ships due to the WNT not being signed and these ships not being cancelled or scrapped.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 9/21/2009 4:06:12 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/21/2009 6:03:41 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The WNT had no limitations on submarine tonnage. As for me, if I ever do my personal AE mod (very unlikely), I have a complete Nip submarine building program already lined up.

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Post #: 59
RE: 4th Circle Mod - 9/21/2009 6:07:47 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The WNT had no limitations on submarine tonnage. As for me, if I ever do my personal AE mod (very unlikely), I have a complete Nip submarine building program already lined up.


So if that is the case, then the canceled submarines (28 was the number I came up with) were canceled due to economic reasons, and not any limits imposed by the WNT or LNT. Interesting. But didn't the WNT have a total naval tonnage limit though?

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