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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 2:58:30 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

If we can ever charge naval points (and with that get the option accelerate/stop) conversions, then I will definately include both types, in addition to the historical hybrids.

Is it sure this doesn't work? I once heard this will be possible in AE but still have no clarification as the active AE members only occasionally answer my questions...

What I've forgotten:
If you choose the "Soviet-Jap Treaty is still in affect" option, the additional oil mustn't be added by oil wells, the produced oil by the soviet wells must arrive in the most northern Japanese Base as reinforcement "off map". The wells are in soviet territory and its most unlikely that the allies bomb them while sending lend lease goods to vladivostok...

Consequently, this oil has to be immune to bombing!



Im pretty sure it dosent work, since I tried messing with the conversions because I had some other bright (or not so bright) ideas that just did work because of it.

I'd be more inclined on giving the Japanese the whole of Sakhalin, and leave the oil there. Maybe increase refineries in Japan proper slightly. This makes it a nice target for a north pacific approach, as we saw in some AARs of old WitP.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 3:05:17 PM   
Historiker


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quote:


The idea of 'add it later' armour is an interesting concept, and one the IJN sort of did with Hiei during her conversion to a training ship, where her armour and guns were reduced and added back on later. In this AU both Kongo and Hiei have this done, Hiei as a training ship and Kongo as a target.

So you can use this trick for treaty ships to increase their power after the abandoning of the treatys. The Mogamis and the whole shaddow ships program were constructed with a philosophy that might well include such ideas.

In Germany, a byword is "Where is a will, there is a way". If Japan really wants to cheat, it can cheat. On a long rear of a BB, an empty barbette my be fittet and just planks put over it. This saves weight and looks like an ordinary ship with just 4 turretes, in case of war the planks are removed and an already combat ready turret is added. THings like this were never done, but is this really a reason to declare it impossible? By doing so, you can weight and still have much stronger ships after a short time in the shipyards.



To the "naval point conversions": The required shipyard is several times above 10, especially when ships are converted to a totally differend kind of ship like the CHitoses. In this case, it is often 25. I hope and haven't tested so far that this means the ship is added to the building list and the conversion costs 25. This has to be tested though.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 3:06:59 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:


The idea of 'add it later' armour is an interesting concept, and one the IJN sort of did with Hiei during her conversion to a training ship, where her armour and guns were reduced and added back on later. In this AU both Kongo and Hiei have this done, Hiei as a training ship and Kongo as a target.

So you can use this trick for treaty ships to increase their power after the abandoning of the treatys. The Mogamis and the whole shaddow ships program were constructed with a philosophy that might well include such ideas.

In Germany, a byword is "Where is a will, there is a way". If Japan really wants to cheat, it can cheat. On a long rear of a BB, an empty barbette my be fittet and just planks put over it. This saves weight and looks like an ordinary ship with just 4 turretes, in case of war the planks are removed and an already combat ready turret is added. THings like this were never done, but is this really a reason to declare it impossible? By doing so, you can weight and still have much stronger ships after a short time in the shipyards.



To the "naval point conversions": The required shipyard is several times above 10, especially when ships are converted to a totally differend kind of ship like the CHitoses. In this case, it is often 25. I hope and haven't tested so far that this means the ship is added to the building list and the conversion costs 25. This has to be tested though.


Ill run a test immediatly. I'm not too optimistic though.

No dice. Its a shame really. Or maybe I'm just too stupid to figure it out.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 8/2/2009 3:11:10 PM >

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 3:17:47 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		The question remains whether they have to be paid for while the ship stays on the map. Does the chitose conversion disappear from map or does it stay? Have you tested whether it costs something?

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 3:43:56 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The question remains whether they have to be paid for while the ship stays on the map. Does the chitose conversion disappear from map or does it stay? Have you tested whether it costs something?


If it works like the conversions, then it stays on the map, in 'Pierside' repair mode for whatever the delay is for the conversion. In the case of Chitose its 300days. And it has to happen in a repair yard greater than 50 points size. It does not show up on the build que, so no naval cost. Its a shame the ship isnt atleast moved into the shipyard to take up repair space...

I havent actually gotten a ship to upgrade yet, but I figure its the same as for conversions. I dont see why it wouldnt be.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 3:49:53 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		Ok, thank you. But have you compared the naval point pool whether it takes points out of it? I doubt the AE team made the Chitose conversion for free, or did it?


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 4:25:44 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


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Status: offline 		JuanG.,
It's good to see that Historiker is chiming in here. He provided some really good ideas for RHS that made it a much better game.

AE looks like it may be more suited to a battlefleet oriented scenario than WITP. The leaky CAP makes carriers more vulnerable and the topedo limitations mean battlefleets have opportunities to operate in more areas.


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 6:59:49 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		Thank you, chiken. I'm still a little bit proud of my invention concerning the production 

@Juan
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2178241&mpage=28&key=&#



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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 7:37:30 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


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Status: offline 		JuanG,
Tested a first turn on the modified scenario 1 you uploaded. I believe someone told you that the lower slots were unused and it looks like you have cleared them out for something else. Unfortunately, slots 89-102 (torpedoes for torpedo bombers) are used by the aircraft files, so these either need to be restored or moved somewhere else.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/2/2009 7:47:51 PM   
JuanG


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Status: offline 		Oh man, I cant believe I missed those! I checked that range for any shipclasses using those devices, same for LCUs, but didnt bother to check aircraft. Doh.

I was going to upload v2 soon anyway, so I'll fix that asap.

Thanks for spotting it. I thought the torpedoes were mixed in with the aircraft guns, which I did leave alone.


----------------------------------------


Version 2 up.

This also has some more fixes to stuff others have spotted, like the Tonan Whaler conversion bug.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/8/1/2529503/Scen40v2.rar


Its a shame we cant charge points for conversions, but I do understand the AE team couldnt do everything. Guess we have to look forward to WitP II for that...

One idea I did have was make the extensive (Ise/Fuso fast BB conversions, ect) require, say, 150 repair yard size. This way, if the player wants to do this, he would have to invest supplies in increasing the capacity of his repair yards before he can do that (Largest Japanese is ~100 right now).


----------------------------------------

Harima (Nagato-Kai) class art done;


Lexington class CC art done;


I've also realised the Illinois in its new 33knot 12x16 BB form will not actually fit onto a art panel at the same scale as the others!

< Message edited by JuanG -- 8/2/2009 11:01:56 PM >

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/3/2009 1:53:12 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

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Status: offline 		Well done on the artwork! I would gladly help you out but what I have is more BigB and fremen style than AEish (though they look seriously cool).

I'm really looking forward to both versions of your mods, I only regret that you omitted the South Dakota class on the USN side, but it's understandible.

Do you plan to change the lesser ships as well (ie CAs, CLs)?

I'm still toying with the idea of doing an INSANE (trademark by Terminus) BB version with all the goodies (that is lots and lots of 16"-18" gunned monsters that were planned) just for fun. Also I'd change the rather boring USN linup of Clevelend-Baltimore ships with some design variants that were seriously contemplated IRL.

BTW there was a Montana class preliminary design, BB-65-8 that fits in nicely with your Illinois class.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s511-13.jpg




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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/3/2009 2:14:05 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

One idea I did have was make the extensive (Ise/Fuso fast BB conversions, ect) require, say, 150 repair yard size. This way, if the player wants to do this, he would have to invest supplies in increasing the capacity of his repair yards before he can do that (Largest Japanese is ~100 right now).

Two men, one thought... I had that idea, too. But as conversions still cost nothing, don't even block the repair shipyard and as the big yard will be usefull anyway (I always expand one shipyard as much as possible), I'd propose an increase of conversion time. This may reflect something like "They just work on the ship when nothing else is to do" or "They work on the ship in their sparetime" - something not unlikely if happend for the beloved Tenno

Another option is the introduction of House Rules. A repair shipyard has to have the size xy for a conversion and as long as its under way, the repair shipyard mustn't repair anything else. The Jap player can do this now, thanks to the new repair system.

My idea of allowing any possible ship convert to a CV/CVL/CVE might work this way without turning the balance too enormous.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 9:11:17 AM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

I'm really looking forward to both versions of your mods, I only regret that you omitted the South Dakota class on the USN side, but it's understandible.

Do you plan to change the lesser ships as well (ie CAs, CLs)?


I may do a BB Variant that has the USN going with a pair of South Dakotas instead of the Lexingtons, but that will have to wait for later. Would definately mean the IJN is gonna have an inferiority complex for the 30's.

The CA/CL builds have changed, though not too drastically. The IJN sees the biggest changes, especially in the CV Variant. For the others there are more cruisers all around, and some larger designs during wartime.

quote:


BTW there was a Montana class preliminary design, BB-65-8 that fits in nicely with your Illinois class.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s511-13.jpg


Thanks very much for this, its a nice confirmation that the numbers I had for my design were pretty good. Though this one is 10ft longer, so even more out of scale with the rest of the art.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 9:24:03 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

IJN is gonna have an inferiority complex for the 30's.

A good explanation if you want to use one of my "add turrets or armour later" tricks. In this case, the IJN might have really thought about doing so.

On the other hand: You are right not to listen to my proposal of reducing the last 4 battleships.
From the time on when the IJN had the money to order ships without haveing to by the remnents of others, it always intended to have a ship that's superior to the contemporary ships of other nations. So in a BB scenario, there's a good justification to stay with slower but more powerful designs. let's just hope that the IJN has a plan how to handle the faster british ships Maybe Über-CAs?

One of things possible - no matter whether in which version - is the design of CAs with tripple or quadruple 20,3cm guns that can be replaced by double or tripple 28cm. This would be one possible measure to strengthen the firepower against greater enemy BB forces. Whether or not this fits in your plan - I can't decide.

Anyway, great work so far!

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 9:30:53 AM   
JuanG


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Status: offline 		In the BB and CV variants, the IJN currently stays with its dual 20cm turrets. I did consider the idea of the Nachis being built with 3x3x8, and how that would affect later designs, but shelved the idea for now.

The idea of the IJN using the wonderful german 28cm gun is one thing I've toyed with for a long time. Personally I think their best use would be in a B-65 type Super Cruiser, maybe armed with up to 12x11 guns. This thing should shred cruisers, and do a number of battleships in a close up fight.

Unfortunately, apart from purchasing the 37mm AA from the germans in the mid-30s, none of the scenarios right now feature buying a liscense for the 28cm, so it would have to be in a new setting entirely.

Maybe something to consider once the current work is done.


Here a nice drawing of a 'complete' 65-8 design, roughly what my Illinois will look like;
http://www.wolfsshipyard.mystarship.com/Misc/NeverWeres/BB65_8.jpg

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 9:37:13 AM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		The gun is rather old, first version from somewhere in the 20th IIRC (don't have the necessary book here). So there's plenty of time to adopt it. The Nanchis then equipped with 3x2x28cm might be a nasty thing to any enemy cruiser .
The german 3,7cm? Wouldn't it have been a better choice to send 10kg of gold to the Japanese ambassador in Sweden and let him show up with that at Bofors?
Was there any 3,7cm mount higher than 2? I don't think so but a 4x40mm Bofors is ugly!

If you want to improve them further, they might have asked in the late 20th/early 30th for the 7,62cm design of Rheinmetall. Pak, Flak and Artillery in one...


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 9:51:56 AM   
JuanG


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Status: offline 		The 28cm/54.5 SK C/34 used on the Scharnhorst dates from 1934. The shorter 28cm/52 SK C/28 used on the Graf Spee and sisters dates from 1928. Both were nice weapons.

Im not sure how easily the Japanese could have acquired the Bofors before the war, however the German 3.7cm/83 should not be a problem. With some redesign, possibly in paralell with the Kreigsmarine, an automatic version can be developed.

I dont plan on mounting them in more than twos, as loading gets complicated with a larger mount.

It also means that while the Japanese AA is better in the Enhanced than the normal scenarios, its still not as good as the allies with Bofors. More comparable to something between the 1.1in and the 2pdr.

The Japanese dont really need a new 'light' DP gun, their own 8cm/40 is decent, and the 8cm/60 from the late 30s is a good weapon.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 8/4/2009 9:52:19 AM >

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 10:07:53 AM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		wasn't bofors selling it to everyone interested?

The rest is reasonable (at least to witp terms) and I'm really looking forward to play your mod. I hope that some of my ideas have found your interest.
How long does it take you to design a shipmodel?


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 11:07:42 AM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

wasn't bofors selling it to everyone interested?

The rest is reasonable (at least to witp terms) and I'm really looking forward to play your mod. I hope that some of my ideas have found your interest.
How long does it take you to design a shipmodel?



As in the artwork, or running some numbers and getting a feel for whats reasonable for a design?

For a art, it depends on how different it is to existing stuff - the ones I fear most are the RN J3 and F3 designs, aswell as all the navies 30's stuff. The Japanese stuff so far were pretty easy, and so was the Lex. It takes me anywhere from 20 minutes (Harima) to around 2 hours (Lex) so far. I anticipate spending around 4 on the harder stuff...

For designs, it varies. I have a good feel for Japanese and USN designs, so I can guess reasonably, and then I'll run it through SpringStyle and SpringSharp and a spreadsheet of my own to check numbers. And then throw in a little extra weight, and see how it compares to existing and planned designs. Anything from half to one and a half hours, depending on if I've got anything like it from the past in archive.


I'll definately keep your ideas in mind, and the same for everyone elses. But as I've said before, your suggestions really fit best with the spirit of the CV variant or a new 'balanced' one.

And I have no idea who Bofors was selling to, I'll do some research. Maybe the IJN will be toting 40mm afterall.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 11:27:13 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

As in the artwork, or running some numbers and getting a feel for whats reasonable for a design?

I don't understand that.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 12:37:39 PM   
JuanG


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Status: offline 		You asked how long it took to make a shipmodel. I wasnt sure if you meant editing the artwork, or actually coming up with the ship class itself - guns, armour, speed/endurance values and so on.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 12:46:42 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

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Status: offline 		Probably not the most professional solution but why don't you just use existing artwork to speed up things? I mean do the programming of the ship classes etc and do the separate upgrades for them then later on you can put in the artwork stuff. I've msoat of what you need from Fremen and BigB and Dixie, though not AE style that's true.

Sorry I'm just too eager to give it a try


< Message edited by csatahajos -- 8/4/2009 1:02:02 PM >

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 12:49:57 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		I ment the artwork.

But I'm also interested how you calculate your ships. When I asked for a faster Yamato, you've written:
quote:

A 30 knot design would look like this;

980ft x 115ft x 35ft
63,100t standard
71,000t full load

4 x 3 x 16in/50 - two fore, two aft, superfiring
2 x 3 x 5.5in/60 - two on ends, superfiring as in Yamato
4 x 2 x 5.5in/60 - two per side
8 x 2 x 5in/40 - four per side, elevated as in Yamato

Belt - 14in (355mm)
Deck - 7.5in (190mm)
Turrets - 20.5in (520mm)
Tower - 18.1in (460mm)

Speed - 30.3 knots @ 175,000hp
Range - 11,500nm @ 15 knots using 7,150tons of fuel

So yes, my estimate of it being comparable in size to the historical Yamato is correct.

Was that an existing plan or how have you calculated it? I'm totally incompetent in this part, so I'm keen to learn.


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 6:09:15 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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Status: offline 		I strongly suggest you get hold of Springsharp: http://www.springsharp.com/ and design your ships using that. The 3.03 beta is stable and creates good design data that can be transferred to the WitpEditor well.

Be wary of such things as switching out 8" guns for 11" ones, ar just "adding another turret" as has been suggested here. I think a Naval Architect might fall over laughing at the second, while the first is certainly possible (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were, as I understand it, meant to have a similar conversion for larger guns) but it plays havoc with ship trim and seaworthiness if not correctly set up.

Steve.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 6:57:30 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		A ship prepared for that can fire 28cm guns without damage even when just around 10.000ts. While Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were in fact NOT prepared by design for the 38cm guns, this can be done when designing a totally new Cruiser.
Adding 28cm guns - and a lot of them - to an existing unprepared will cause a lot of trouble, though...


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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 7:07:24 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

I strongly suggest you get hold of Springsharp: http://www.springsharp.com/ and design your ships using that. The 3.03 beta is stable and creates good design data that can be transferred to the WitpEditor well.

Be wary of such things as switching out 8" guns for 11" ones, ar just "adding another turret" as has been suggested here. I think a Naval Architect might fall over laughing at the second, while the first is certainly possible (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were, as I understand it, meant to have a similar conversion for larger guns) but it plays havoc with ship trim and seaworthiness if not correctly set up.

Steve.



Springsharp is one of the tools I use, though I would strongly suggest sticking to Version 2, as version 3 is just a 'tad' optimistic in my experience.

The suggestion of 'adding a turret' to an existing hull is an absurd one, but building a ship with an extra barbette and then decking it over and ballasting the ship, and then later uncovering it and installing said turret, isnt so outrageous. It obviously works best with turrets closer to the center of the ship, but with appropriate planning it should be possible.

Weather I use it remains debateable.

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RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/4/2009 7:17:49 PM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		You can put a hangar over the barbette, then it isn't so obvious that there's some unnecessary space to wonder about.

BTW: The barbettes of the Scharnhost had to be strengthend before adding the 38cm turret. The diameter was enough but not the barbette itself - as it was NOT anticipated from the start to change the main armement. If this were so, it would've been an easy job to design the ship in this way.

quote:

The suggestion of 'adding a turret' to an existing hull is an absurd one, but building a ship with an extra barbette and then decking it over and ballasting the ship, and then later uncovering it and installing said turret, isnt so outrageous. It obviously works best with turrets closer to the center of the ship, but with appropriate planning it should be possible.´

The lower ship of your profile might be a candidate with the center turret. Putting a hangar over a prepared barbette wouldn't surprise too much - maybe just encourage the thinking of poor Japanese designers...

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(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 57
RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/5/2009 6:23:19 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Probably not the most professional solution but why don't you just use existing artwork to speed up things? I mean do the programming of the ship classes etc and do the separate upgrades for them then later on you can put in the artwork stuff. I've msoat of what you need from Fremen and BigB and Dixie, though not AE style that's true.



If you want to post or send me artwork that might be suitable, you're free to do so. If nothing else, it will reduce the time I need to work on creating my own ones if I have something as a guide.

I will probably atleast finish the artwork for BB/CV in an AE-like style before I release however.

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AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to Akos Gergely)
Post #: 58
RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/5/2009 10:31:56 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

Posts: 733
Joined: 4/8/2004
From: Hungary, Bp.
Status: offline 		E-mail sent to you Sir!

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(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 59
RE: Alternate WNT Scenarios - 8/6/2009 12:16:06 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks again for the art, some beautiful work in there that works good as a reference.

Heres BB Sagami, the 1931 Kongo 'replacement' - sorry for the low quality, cant get onto ImageShack for whatever reason;





Quality FIXED!

< Message edited by JuanG -- 8/6/2009 4:14:18 PM >

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AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to Akos Gergely)
Post #: 60
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