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RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 2:30:22 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		Excellent post Erik and your points well made. You professionals at Matrix have a lot more patience than most. I have been a dedicated customer and will continue to be one as long as you stay in business. You've treated me well. I've never seen a piece of software that does not have at least one bug, and I have had more software than most. Heck, I'm in debt over it all the time!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 31
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 4:58:26 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, so with all this said - right, we know that, we got in to the business knowing it and as professionals we do our best to make sure we work around it. Nevertheless, you have to keep it in mind because the reality is that we simply can't test on every single PC and we can't play every game exactly the way every single customer might play it, so things will slip through.


I think most game-buyers, even the more mainstream ones accept that. It is nevertheless, though, frustrating to discover that the game you have just bought has bugs that mean in extreme cases you are unable to play it.. and while most publishers and developers, including yourselves accept that, not all do (mentioning no names). I was cussing like fury when having forked out on AE it wouldn't even run. The problem was easily solved when I calmed down by setting the executables to XP compatibility. Though I assume that the problem was not affecting all Vista users (or indeed any other than me; I haven't seen anyone else mention it), that would have been little consolation had rather more than such a simple fix been necessary.

What really annoys people, though, is not anything dependent on particular hardware/software/OS combinations, but obvious bugs that any decent testing programme should have identified or, worse, those that were identified but the game was kicked out the door anyway.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 8/12/2009 4:59:34 AM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 32
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 4:59:07 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		Duplicate post, sorry.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 33
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 5:37:07 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
What really annoys people, though, is not anything dependent on particular hardware/software/OS combinations, but obvious bugs that any decent testing programme should have identified or, worse, those that were identified but the game was kicked out the door anyway.


This is a really tough one.

IMHO, a lot this stuff doesn't appear to have been playtested at all. In my experience, the average producer/programmer team is utterly clueless as to the value of effective playtesting. It's an afterthought, or worse yet, an unnecessary burden. The prevailing wisdom appears to be, "given that we're such geniuses, these rubes really do owe us a pint, or two, for us allowing them pre-release privileges to our software." I know that comment will sound like hyperbole, or worse, to a lot of our readers. But, in my experience, it's rather closer to the norm than some of you might realize. I'd also note that the integrity of the game that you ultimately download onto your computer is inversely proportional to that kind of attitude.

I'm going to stop now, as I don't wish to step on one "stream of consciousness" exposition with yet another.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 34
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 8:07:24 AM   
Arsan

 

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

... Actually what I really wanted to write is that if we leave the AI out, isn't there less chance of things going wrong?

Shouldn't we try it?


Yeah, sure!


Don't even want to try it? The first thing people are clamoring for these days in the boardgame world is a Vassal version of a game.

These are beautiful things with crisp, clear graphics. Better than any PC wargame I've seen. Smooth game play.

But the turn off is, you have to play them through the Vassal program and the Vassal UI.

Why not just create beautiful stand-alone war games like these? Perfect for PBEM and solitaire hotseat?

In another thread, there's a guy looking for an introductory war game for his family. Wouldn't it have been great to be able to advise him: "Sure buy Matrix's Shmactics 2 it's similar to a really famous basic board war game called Tactics 2 that plays stand-alone and has awesome 2-d graphics. The rules are learned in 10 minutes and you can set up the map as you want for extended gameplay after. It's a genuinely classic introductory war game that got thousands into the hobby".

Easy sale for me.


Not for me. No AI, no sale.
What's more, i want a decent AI, not some half baked thing that can't use half the game features.
This is a PC gaming forum and we are talking about PC wargames not your dear boardgames
The main reason computer wargames exist is just that: to have an Ai that offer you a decent rival anytime you want.
Solitaire hot seat gaming may work for... maybe 1 in 50 buyers??
PBEM, maybe in 1 out of ten.
But most of the above also want an AI to play the game in addition to PBEM/solitaire play.

Doing no AI games would shrink and already minuscule war game market to maybe less than a 10 per cent.

Decision games is doing this with his Computer War in Europe, but i think they will hardly sell a million copies of it, even using such a famous boardgame as WiE...
Ok, the 60 bucks price for a no AI game surely doesn't help either

Regards

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 35
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 8:57:43 AM   
Johan

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 8/4/2009
Status: offline 		Good post Erik.

/Johan @ Paradox

(in reply to Arsan)
Post #: 36
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 8/12/2009 9:49:35 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

What's more, i want a decent AI, not some half baked thing that can't use half the game features.


Me too Arsan, don't worry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan
This is a PC gaming forum and we are talking about PC wargames not your dear boardgames


LOL!

(in reply to Arsan)
Post #: 37
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 9/4/2009 12:52:30 AM   
htuna


Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline 		Excellent Post Erik....PC's are like drag racers... all different parts going in.. could blow up any second.. especially when new software is introduced.... Console is like a family car. you drive it off the lot...



(in reply to RyanCrierie)
Post #: 38
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 9/4/2009 2:06:34 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I would say in general since I started PC gaming (about 1990) until now that games in general have gotten less bug ridden as a whole.
That is not to say that buggy games are still not released. But I think overall that games are less buggy when seen as a industry.
One reason I think is that there is more talent in the software industry than ever. It has become such a economic force that many companies are better organized and attract more talent than ever before.
Secondly and perhaps most importantly the power of the internet and internet game reviews has played a huge roll in how companies release games. Once a game is hit with the stigma of being bug ridden and having bad support then that is a hard thing to shake off and the company itself might even be effected for future releases.
I would also say that customer support has gotten somewhat better since I started gaming. I remember back in the late 90s interacting with AAA software developers on their forums was like dealing with egotistical athletes. Their egos got in the way of listening to customers and they had poor people skills.
But as I said earlier now that gaming is more profitable than ever so it pays to listen to your customers and provide good support.

Saying all that, I would agree that Matrix is among the best wargaming companies in terms of customer service and among the best companies in gaming period.
There are several AAA companies who are also fantastic at customer support so I don't think pre judging AAA developers is accurate.

Console gaming on the other hand has become slightly buggier since I began console gaming (in the mid 80s)
I think the power of the internet and internet enabled consoles has actualy contributed to this. For the first time ever console games can be updated and patched and don't have to be perfect out of the box.
Console gaming has also became a lot more complex since the hardware in those systems has grown in power so much.

Anyways, I am not sure if what I wrote has anything to do with what Erik wrote or not. But it is the state of gaming today as I see it.
I disagree that PC gaming is a dying breed. It may not dominate like it used too when half of all a game stores inventory was PC games. But PC gaming revenue as a whole has increased yearly because gaming overall as a whole has exploded.
Gaming makes more money than movies and music these days almost combined. PC gaming may have a smaller % than it used too but it makes more money than it used too (if that makes any sense)
I see PC gaming as here to stay as long as developers can continue to produce titles that are unique to the PC and keep making their customer service better and better.

(in reply to htuna)
Post #: 39
RE: A general post on PC Games and bugs... - 9/4/2009 4:04:14 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: E

As I recall, Pong was bug-free! (NO! do NOT deflate my happy memories of throwing quarter after quarter at those damn pixel paddles!)


And Space Wars was viral back before it was cool too !



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to E)
Post #: 40
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