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Patch 01 ... Patch 02 ... Patch 03 ... - 8/11/2009 2:01:01 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		As stated previously, the approximate time table for the first two patches is as follows:

Patch 01 will be 30 days after game release

Patch 02 will be 90 days after game release

And we are on track for these dates. We do believe patch 01 will include the ability to update scenario data changes for games already in progress. However, we will not include an ability to update AI scenario data. We may include this eventually, but it would be risky to include it now as it would require more testing time than we have. So, for patch 01, no restart required to pick up EXE (code) changes, no restart required to pick up scenario (data) changes but restart would be required to pick up AI (data) changes.

Our guidelines for these patches are that we will be doing a few internally driven adjustments (we may be aware of issues you guys haven't found - yet). But primarily we are reacting to issues you guys are finding, either code or data. We also must consider the risk of the change however, as we do not have much internal testing time. So some changes we would like to make, will be postponed if we think the risk of the change is too high.

We may do a public beta, for patch 01 and would release a change list in conjunction with the public beta release. Items may go in and out of scope regardless, so issuing a list prior to then would be pre-mature. We are trying to include fixes for every ligitimate issue that we can get in without blowing out the risk profile.

So for patch 01 I would expect public beta within about one week and then general release within two to three weeks.



< Message edited by jwilkerson -- 12/8/2009 11:20:59 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 2:02:08 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		Awesome - the ability to get all the changes of a patch without restarts is a welcome treat. Thanks a lot

Xargun

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 2
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 2:03:35 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Nice. Good release plan too.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 3
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 2:19:48 PM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		Great!! Now if I could get a shipping notice on my physical copy....

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 4
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 2:41:13 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Wow..planning patch release dates 90 days in advance That indicates a level of planning I could not have imagined. I didn't plan my Viking long boat ceremony that far in advance.

I wish I had just one copy of the planning gene.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 5
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 3:03:24 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wish I had just one copy of the planning gene.


Maybe we could work a trade. I've got two planning genes and am short an implementation gene.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 6
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 3:17:35 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wish I had just one copy of the planning gene.


Maybe we could work a trade. I've got two planning genes and am short an implementation gene.



My middle name is Gene, but I lack both a planning gene and an implementation gene.

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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 3:39:54 PM   
sanderz

 

Posts: 862
Joined: 1/8/2009
From: Devon, England
Status: offline 		hi

sorry

am pretty new to this game does but does the following mean i would need to restart a grand campaign game for it to get a patched ai?


quote:

but restart would be required to pick up AI (data) changes.


thanks

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 8
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 4:07:42 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

And we are on track for these dates. We do believe patch 01 will include the ability to update scenario data changes for games already in progress. However, we will not include an ability to update AI scenario data. We may include this eventually, but it would be risky to include it now as it would require more testing time than we have. So, for patch 01, no restart required to pick up EXE (code) changes, no restart required to pick up scenario (data) changes but restart would be required to pick up AI (data) changes.



Thanks for the update Joe. Great to see things moving along as planned! Did we all mention we are loving the game?

I am totally ignorant on the subject, but will there come a point where we *must* restart if we want the latest patch? As you said, this will not be needed for Patch Mk I. But do you anticipate it being needed for Patch Mk II? Or farther down the road?

Thanks again to the entire AE team for all the hard work!

Chad

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 9
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 4:31:55 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison
I am totally ignorant on the subject, but will there come a point where we *must* restart if we want the latest patch?


Chad,
First let me say that there is never a point at which one must restart.

However, there are three cases regarding a given patch:

01 - All patch changes can be updated into ongoing games.

02 - Some patch changes can be updated into ongoing games, and some patch changes cannot be updated into ongoing games.

03 - Ongoing games cannot be played after application of the patch.

We can control which of these three cases a patch falls into. So far, every WITP patch we (Don, Joe, Michael, Nik) have done has fallen into case 01 or case 02. If we make significant data structure changes, then case 03 would be applicable. Over the past 18 months, we have been doing weekly builds and I believe there were 3 cases (out of about 70) where we fell into case 03 - but of course we knew we had to pay this penalty to get some benefit. The last such case was to double the size of the AI scripts allowed from 1000 to 2000.

So there might be a case where we would do a case 03 patch, but I doubt it. So I think you can assume future patches will be either case 01 or case 02 - just as our WITP patches have been.



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(in reply to Chad Harrison)
Post #: 10
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 4:43:03 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So there might be a case where we would do a case 03 patch, but I doubt it. So I think you can assume future patches will be either case 01 or case 02 - just as our WITP patches have been.



Joe

Thanks for the quick and very detailed reply. Playing a game from a dev team that is honest, upfront and realistic is a great experience. Keep up the great work.

Thanks

Chad

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 11
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 5:07:31 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

hi

sorry

am pretty new to this game does but does the following mean i would need to restart a grand campaign game for it to get a patched ai?


quote:

but restart would be required to pick up AI (data) changes.


thanks


Yes it would , but without detailed info on how the AI tweaks affect the game it may
not be a critical patch and upto the player if they want to restart or not.


If your planning on a PBEM game though, most if not all folks will start on the most
recent patch available and that may well impact any on-going games vs the AI ..

P.S welcome to the nuthouse


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sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to sanderz)
Post #: 12
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 5:20:44 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Playing a game from a dev team that is honest, upfront and realistic is a great experience.



Hmmm. Where have I heard that before?

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Post #: 13
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 5:24:12 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I know you guys probably hate the "what is the level of effort" questions...

But here goes anyway.  Regarding the age old, "If it's a DB change, the game requires a restart..." issue.

Would it be feasible to add a "last initial date" to the DB, so that on the load save game screen, there was a "apply latest updates" button when you select a saved game.  When selecting that option, the the game compares the stats for all items in the patched DB (yes, this would be substantial) to those in the selected game.  If the last update date in the game is older than the last update date in the DB, it updats the in-game values to whatever is in the DB (and doesn't mess with whatever is current for location, Sys-Float-Fire damage etc).

Yes, there would be issues.  If turrent is facing the wrong way or was missing, it magically appears or may get repaired.  If new LCUs/squadrons are added, they might magically appear (I guess you could put a check for for the arrival base to be friendly, otherwise throw it into "home base" (SF, Tokyo etc).
But, a player could, at their option, run the DB upate to games in progress (and would be aware that it might create some issues, you take the good with the bad).

Just asking.
-F-

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(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 14
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 6:55:42 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		I like the idea of a beta, this way it's gets more eyeballs to help find anything missing or spot anything new that may crop up!

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 15
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 7:20:55 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Quit asking the poor guy so many questions. At best he is a heterozygote for the "implementation gene".

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 16
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 7:58:38 PM   
IndyShark


Posts: 303
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline 		Very interesting! When can we see a list of changes/updates planned for the first patch?

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 17
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/11/2009 8:38:22 PM   
sanderz

 

Posts: 862
Joined: 1/8/2009
From: Devon, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

hi

sorry

am pretty new to this game does but does the following mean i would need to restart a grand campaign game for it to get a patched ai?


quote:

but restart would be required to pick up AI (data) changes.


thanks


Yes it would , but without detailed info on how the AI tweaks affect the game it may
not be a critical patch and upto the player if they want to restart or not.


If your planning on a PBEM game though, most if not all folks will start on the most
recent patch available and that may well impact any on-going games vs the AI ..

P.S welcome to the nuthouse




thanks for that rob

so it does seem likely that restarts are going to be required for most - i would imagine people are not going to want to press on with games that may take a year if they know bits of the ai aren't patched

am loving the game but restarts are a real pain in the ass as the first few turns take so much longer than witp - my only criticism is that for me the quest for realism has been at the expense of gameplay as theres a lot of stuff that doesn't really seem to add anything to the game - but thats a whole other thread :)

cheers

sanderz

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 18
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:11:18 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline

(in reply to sanderz)
Post #: 19
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:54:42 AM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline 		No AI data pick up or whatever means the bugs with the AI will not be fixed without a restart?

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 20
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 2:57:38 PM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IndyShark

Very interesting! When can we see a list of changes/updates planned for the first patch?


Per Joe's first message, they will be releasing the list concurrent with the public beta. The public beta is expected in a week or so.

(in reply to IndyShark)
Post #: 21
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 3:59:56 PM   
dpazuk


Posts: 119
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

No AI data pick up or whatever means the bugs with the AI will not be fixed without a restart?


I second this emotion.

Given the sheer time commitment involved, I see no point in continuing with the GC against the AI until the first patch has been released.



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Post #: 22
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 4:41:27 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Its almost impossible to patch the AI.

Sorry guys but that is genuinely an almost impossible thing to update for a game of this type.

The AI files you have are all perfectly playable I think the new ones will be better based on feedback recieved. But in many ways I would want to continue with what I had were I in yor positions as you will inevitably be mroe ready for my suprises second time round !!!

(in reply to dpazuk)
Post #: 23
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 4:59:19 PM   
dpazuk


Posts: 119
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its almost impossible to patch the AI.

Sorry guys but that is genuinely an almost impossible thing to update for a game of this type.

The AI files you have are all perfectly playable I think the new ones will be better based on feedback recieved. But in many ways I would want to continue with what I had were I in yor positions as you will inevitably be mroe ready for my suprises second time round !!!



Andy, you DA MAN! I cannot thank you and the entire AI team enough for the work and dedication you have put into the AI.

The analogy of taking a lump of coal and turning into a diamond would not be inappropriate.

< Message edited by dpazuk -- 8/15/2009 7:35:12 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 5:54:56 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Dont forget James/Don/Brady and all the others on the team that did the coding and testing of the Ai lots of people were involved in making the AI work - hell james did all the coding to give me the toys to play with

(in reply to dpazuk)
Post #: 25
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:03:16 PM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline 		YEah I don't have a problem with the AI just some of the small things like the KB getting stuck robotic like in Ceylon.. but then again I am way past that now so :)

AI is fine maybe it is a script? I don't know...

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 26
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:26:27 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I've been playing it cool to see what kind of issues this game was going to have even though I DL the first morning. With those of us with less time to put into a game I was afraid of getting into it and then having to restart. However, I say get it right as best you can even though it may require a restart. I don't know what happened to my physical shipment, can't even track it with the number provided but it says my order was fullfilled. I was hoping to spend some time on the physical manuel before taking the leap for WiTP to AE. However I think I will go in and toy around a bit. I say release 2 patches, one for a restart and one for not.

(in reply to Scott_USN)
Post #: 27
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:38:21 PM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline 		Play the game.

If you have to restart then do that when the time comes.

Don't sit around worrying about it.

Get some more turns in.

You are missing out on a lot of fun if you are not playing the game.

(in reply to Hanzberger)
Post #: 28
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 6:51:54 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		"If debugging is the process of removing bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in." This phrase made my day yesterday at work 

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Post #: 29
RE: Patch 01 ... Patch 02 - 8/15/2009 7:10:50 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dpazuk
Andy, you DA MAN! I cannot thank you enough for the work and dedication you have put into the AI.

The analogy of taking a lump of coal and turning into a diamond would not be inappropriate.


I also want to thank Andy and all the guys that work on the AI: it's light years ahead the witp one. Well done!!!


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Post #: 30
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