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RE: War in the East (Ostfront II)

 
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RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/3/2009 1:01:14 AM   
Captain Cruft


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Status: offline 		Yep, Me-262 or generalised air superiority optimisation is another thing I have thought about. However many of these potential planes might well get "deployed" to the Western Front. The need to divert aircraft production to defend against US/UK strategic bombing will have to be modelled somehow.

I think the Finns could have been co-erced into being more active if it really looked like the SU was going to fall. You might even bring Sweden (and Turkey) in too on a similar basis, but not in this version, it's going to be quite enough work as it is.

Production is going to be affected by a lot of things, many of which are not yet decided. However some overall bias options wouldn't go amiss. As well as an "early Speer rationalisation" option perhaps.

It looks like there will be lots of variants :)

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Post #: 31
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/3/2009 5:47:14 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
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Status: offline 		Yeah... JJDenver has a point about Japan, I think.

After the oil embargo, I'm not really sure if Japan would still consider the "Northern Plan" a viable option...regardless of how well/poorly the Germans might be doing.

Japan was running against the clock with dwindling oil reserves. I don't have much information about it....but I don't think Siberian oil production was particularly well developed pre-WWII.... and it certainly wasn't as easly accessible to Japan as the Dutch East Indies or bullying the US into resuming deliveries.

Their realistic choices at that point were some version of the Pacific option....or escalating the China campaign even more to try to bring it to conclusion before the stockpiles ran dry.

Now, if the embargo had never happaned....we might have a whole different ball-game.

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Post #: 32
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/4/2009 1:19:03 AM   
Captain Cruft


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From: England
Status: offline 		I don't disagree fundamentally.

However, I do think there may be scope for a "Japan attacks Russia" option. Perhaps not associated with a "no Pearl Harbor" option though. If the Soviets essentially evaporated from the frontier due to being called west then I can't believe that the IJA would do nothing.

It's all just musing at this point, and anything like this that actually gets implemented will be optional.

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Post #: 33
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 7:36:54 AM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Captain

I have a couple of questions regarding your SFT models in the Ostfront scenario.

Did you mainly use the normal SFTs and rename/regraphic and redescript them? Or did you redesign them completely. Where did you get the pictures/descriptions? A small note. Not all german infantry was designed Grenadier. Maybe call basic german infantry for "landseer"?

Are you going to use the same SFTs in the new scenario? How do you feel about others using part of the SFT lists?

I am thinking about doing something similar with for example the japaneese army. Actually it would be fun to make a masterfile with similar SFT lists for all major nations. But it would probably be easiest to continue on your list.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/5/2009 7:38:13 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 11:44:22 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
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Status: offline 		Not wanting to post critic.

But I think Grymme meant "Landser"

Landser were the normal foot infantry of the Wehrmacht, Grenadiere were normally halftracked/vehicles to accompany the panzers.
eg.Großdeutschland

Would be interesting to have these differnt SFT's in a scenario.


While we are at it. Will you also be including Pioniere?
Battle engineers? I think they were used in Stalingrad to help out. Well that is if the film "Stalingrad" was correct.


< Message edited by british exil -- 9/5/2009 11:49:23 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 12:09:04 PM   
03_walk_alot


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Status: offline 		I am about 10 min into my 1st game and have come across a "Ge Rail Artillery Eisenbahngeschutz"
How cool is that!

Awesome.

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Post #: 36
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 12:53:07 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		No problems British. Mein deutch is nich soo gut :) I meant Landser.

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Post #: 37
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 3:18:56 PM   
03_walk_alot


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What is special supply?

Thanks'

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any fool has felt in his heart that he could command a regiment.

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Post #: 38
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 4:57:00 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Status: offline 		03_walk_alot - Special supply is more expensive supply meant to be used for emergencies. I am not sure it's a particularly good idea, but you don't have to use it.

grymme -

I started with the generic SFTs and then incremented or decremented the various parameters. The pictures come from various places.

In Ostfront II the German infantry will be genericised as "GE Rifle", except for PzGrenadiers and Pioniers.

Feel free to use the stuff as you want. However please be aware that you cannot use the ostfront.pt2 file as a masterfile. I tried and it doesn't work. So you will have to manually copy things.

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Post #: 39
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 5:10:39 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Captain.

Thanx. Ill see what i do whith it. Strange about the masterfile. Ill investigate.

If you would feel like going over to natocounters you are welcome to the set in this picture.

Ill upload the NATO counterset to my webpage sometime today.

My latest idea is to somehow get my hands on the maps from the Boardgame "Case Blue", one of the biggest boardgames made and somehow implement it.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29285

here is a nice overview of the size of the maps.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/273432




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/5/2009 5:14:49 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 5:25:44 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Status: offline 		Thanks for the symbols, however I plan to use the generic ones and let players change the graphics if they want. It's all too much work as it is ... :)

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Post #: 41
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 5:26:40 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Counterset is now downloadable at this location. I added Staff, Partisan and Truck symbols appart from the ones in the picture. Dont really know how to depict bazookas though.

http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod/Bits%20and%20pieces/Bits%20and%20pieces.html


aah.. ok. Never mind. Are you not interested in graphics at all? I feel it adds flavour to the game.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/5/2009 5:28:31 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 5:32:29 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		What was your problem with using it as a masterfile? I just tried it on a small created scenario and it seemed to work.

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Post #: 43
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/5/2009 6:02:41 PM   
Captain Cruft


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From: England
Status: offline 		I think the generic graphics work quite well, and players can swap them out if they want. The amount of work is overwhelming as it is and I don't want to add to it.

As to the masterfile thing, perhaps I meant that you can't use it for random games. It might be OK for making a scenario by hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if some problems manifest.

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Post #: 44
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/6/2009 1:13:30 PM   
Grymme

 

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Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Captain. I have a suggestion. I am working on the map for my own russian campaign scenario "Case Blue". When i am finished with the bare map i am going to upload it to the community somehow as just a map. This way people can use it to create their own scenarios on other subjects like the Russian Civil War/smaller battles in WWII /whatever.

Maybe you could do the same. A 300*300 map of Eastern Europe/European russia could certainly be used in a lot of different scenarios, and then people wouldnt have to do the same work all over again.

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Post #: 45
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/7/2009 1:21:11 AM   
Captain Cruft


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Status: offline 		That's exactly what I intend to do, when I finish making it in around 2013 ...

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Post #: 46
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/7/2009 7:21:07 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
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Status: offline 		Cool. It will be a nice legacy for the forum. What map are you using to fill from? My map is 12 600 hexes. Thats 14 % of the size of your map. I did my map in 2 days. So hmm maybe in a month or so?

A couple of questions/observations etc.

Have you considered adding Motorcycle troops, penal troops and police/security troops would be cool. I am adding them in my modification anyhow.

Have you done something drastic with Staff points needed for vehicles?



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Post #: 47
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/7/2009 7:36:35 PM   
Captain Cruft


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From: England
Status: offline 		The map is derived from the TOAW scenario Fire in the East, with a few changes. It will take several months to complete since I don't really have much time to devote to it at the moment. Just a few hexes every day ...

Yes I will be adding motorcycle troops, penal units and police etc. to some degree.

Command and control in general is something I need to think about for version II. I really can't remember what my reasons were for doing it the way I did in version I.

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Post #: 48
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/11/2009 2:09:12 AM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
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Status: offline 		Hi,

I was thinking about the problem of avoiding a catastrophic end to the game before 1944/45. The balance seems to tilt one way or the other in GPW and the game ends quickly.

I wonder if it's a function of production capacity compared to losses. If for example production capacity of the Soviet far east and German heartland is quite large then maybe even large defeats wouldn't end the war. But if a few large defeats cause losses that can't be replaced quickly enough to prepare to stop the enemy, then the game ends.

The other possibility is that the effect of distance isn't simulated well enough. For example even when the Soviets caused large defeats to the Germans and vice versa, it seemed like the need to advance hundreds of miles sort of diluted the combat forward capabilities of the advancing army enough to weaken them and allow them to be stopped.

Moving in AT doesn't cause any loss of supply or temporary attrition the way it might have in WW2. For example if you advanced a panzer corp 200 kilometres east in Russia it would definitely have reduced effectiveness due to breakdowns and other issues when it met combat 200 k east. Also the supply tail might not be delivering all combat and non-combat supply that would be needed for a prolonged fight right away. In AT you can move east for a few weeks and arrive fit to undertake a long hard fight immediately.

Maybe there are other factors as well - these were just a couple I was thinking about.

jj

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RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/11/2009 7:50:08 PM   
03_walk_alot


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Was wondering why the transport plane carry weight is so low?

thanks
Giacomo


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While few men,legislators or otherwise,
have felt downthe years they could command ships of the line or marshall air armies without specialized training, almost
any fool has felt in his heart that he could command a regiment.

T.R. Fehrenbach

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Post #: 50
RE: War in the East (Ostfront II) - 9/11/2009 8:59:20 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		jj,

Several things in version II may mitigate what you describe:

1) Production only provides a small proportion of the forces, most new stuff comes in as reinforcements.
2) The need to convert rail in both directions when advancing. Armies will not be able to travel very far from the railheads and remain in supply.
3) I intend to add a readiness loss for movement. You can't simulate actual attrition though.
4) Lots of randomness. More things like the randomised production in version I.

walk_a_lot,

I can't remember but I feel sure I worked it out based on some formula from real data. WW2 transport planes did not have a great airlift capacity, other than perhaps the US ones, which aren't present.

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 9/11/2009 9:01:43 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Ostfront II - 9/15/2009 12:39:13 AM   
Captain Cruft


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Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Just a heads up about version I ...

Play-testing has revealed that the scenario is quite unbalanced. With an aggressive player the Germans can essentially win the game in October, and there is nothing the Soviets can do about it.

So, I am doing a version 0.98 which will attempt to fix this. It will be along within the next week or so.

Version II will also incorporate the lessons learned.

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Post #: 52
RE: Ostfront II - 10/7/2009 8:31:03 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Hi Captain.

How is work going on this monster of monsters ;)

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Post #: 53
RE: Ostfront II - 10/7/2009 8:41:06 PM   
Jay Doubleyou

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		Playing the scenario against you was nice playtesting.
I love the setup, the real eastfront feeling, the different setup etc.
We have discussed (dis)balance issues to prevent the Germans from just keep on running towards the strategic goals almost unhindered if you are as agressive as possible.

Looking forward to version II.

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Post #: 54
RE: Ostfront II - 10/13/2009 1:00:30 AM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Yes Jay Doubleyou handed my Soviet butt to me on several plates ...  It was really excellent play-testing though.

Unfortunately I am currently on hiatus due to work and stuff, but have every intention of progressing things when I can. A version 0.98 of the existing scen will be the first objective, and this will attempt to fix the balance issues etc. Hopefully this will be before Christmas, then for the version II "mega-project" (and it is mega) I now think I will wait for the updated engine from Vic before really going for it. The map may get some attention though when I can manage it.


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Post #: 55
RE: Ostfront II - 12/6/2009 6:20:48 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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Status: offline 		and...

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Post #: 56
RE: Ostfront II - 6/17/2010 7:14:39 AM   
SKY6A

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Newcomer to AT. Just wondering if this project was ever completed, or if it is still possible to get the original anywhere. The link in Captain Cruft's thread for the earlier version seem to be broken.

Thanks!

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Post #: 57
RE: Ostfront II - 6/19/2010 5:07:41 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Hi SKY6A. I think Capt. Cruft has been busy with other things, so this one is sort of stalled.

Don't know about the earlier version. There ought to be someone who has a copy, I assume you checked the scenario bank ?. I don't unfortunately. I was anticipating this mod myself.

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Post #: 58
RE: Ostfront II - 6/19/2010 9:03:02 PM   
SKY6A

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Jeffrey,

I hadn't realized that Capt Cruft and MattyBouy are the same person, so I missed the Ostfront file in the Scenario Bank. Just grabbed it, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

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Post #: 59
RE: Ostfront II - 6/22/2010 7:13:32 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		NP and I hadn't realized that they were the same person either. It's a bit of a suprise.


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Post #: 60
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