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Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 4:12:52 PM   
Icedawg


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Status: offline 		I just want to make sure I'm reading the manual correctly on this one, because I think something I just read sounds to good to be true.

p 165 "Command HQ's can directly supply torpedoes to groups by expending supply. It does not need to keep a torpedo reserve."

p 166. "If no HQ or BF is found, then a HQ with the base within the HQ's command radius is checked for. If one is found, then torpedoes are expended from it."

I read this to mean that command HQ's can supply torpedoes to any group within their range. If this is true, then in my plan to capture Malaya, I could take Kuantan, move the Southern Army HQ there (range of 9) stock the base with supply and expect to fly torpedo-armed Betty's out of any size 2 or greater airfield I capture on the Malayan peninsula. This sounds too good to be true, so I expect I am missing something.

Can anyone a) confirm my JFB dream about this strategy or b) shoot my plan down and send me back to the drawing board.

Also, from the p 166 quote, can anyone decifer this? "If no HQ or BF is found, then a HQ with the base within the HQ's command radius is checked for. If one is found, then torpedoes are expended from it." I expect it is just a typo and should be deleted to read "If no HQ or BF is found, then a HQ within the HQ's command radius is checked for. If one is found, then torpedoes are expended from it." That "with the base" makes no sense to me (although as I have posted elsewhere, manual writers seem to have their own odd way of saying things, so maybe it does have meaning).
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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 5:14:41 PM   
Brady


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I thought it had to be an Air HQ.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 5:40:23 PM   
EUBanana


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Status: offline 		I think the OP may be correct, because in the Guadalcanal scenario IIRC its possible to have Catalinas loaded with torpedoes from Noumea, and the only special thing about Noumea, far as I can tell, is that it has SOPAC HQ - which doesn't have torpedo ordnance.

Yet the 5th Airforce HQ you get later on (command radius 1 air HQ, no torpedo ordnance) does not let you load torpedoes.

As torps are not my main weapon anyway I've not really hassled with it too much, beyond retire the Beauforts at PM for Mitchells, as I assumed 5th Airforce would be good enough and it isn't.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 6:15:58 PM   
EUBanana


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Status: offline 		Yup, just doublechecking now.

At Port Moresby (airfield 5, 10k supply, 5th airforce air HQ), my Catalinas cannot load torpedoes.

At Townsville (15k supply, SWPAC HQ) my Beauforts can load torpedoes.

There are no other HQs in range.  None of the HQs specifically hold torpedo ordnance.

However when I move my Beauforts to Cairns (airfield 4, 2k supply, no HQ but in range of SWPAC HQ at Townsville) they cannot load torpedoes.

So I'm not quite sure whats going on here.    As I find Dauntlesses to be the best antiship weapon I've got anyway I've not really stressed about it too much.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 8:14:18 PM   
Brady


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Whats true for Guad Scenario is not nescessarly true for the GC.



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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/22/2009 8:56:50 PM   
jazman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Whats true for Guad Scenario is not nescessarly true for the GC.




Do you mean game mechanics? If game mechanics, then maybe we should cast a moderately skeptical eye towards the Guad scenario as a training scenario.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 12:26:18 AM   
michaelm75au


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Status: offline 		A Command Hq (with sufficient supply) can act as an Air Hq for torpedo supply purposes if no Air Hq is in range.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 4:24:41 AM   
Sheytan


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Status: offline 		So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

A Command Hq (with sufficient supply) can act as an Air Hq for torpedo supply purposes if no Air Hq is in range.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 5:10:59 AM   
tigercub


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Status: offline 		you will just have to do what the allies did during the war sink the transports and bomb the supply bases you are not going to do it over night but you can do it.But its harder for the japs now maybe not as hard some would like.

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< Message edited by tigercub -- 8/23/2009 5:11:36 AM >

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 6:03:45 AM   
Brady


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Nettys are far less efective in AE than they were in stock for a number of reasions, particularly for the Human player. The more you play the game the more aparent these become.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 10:38:16 AM   
michaelm75au


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

A Command Hq (with sufficient supply) can act as an Air Hq for torpedo supply purposes if no Air Hq is in range.




I can't see the abuse.
There are not that many Air or command hqs on either side, and they tend to be spread around the map.

Plus you need the supply available at the base:
for AF 4+, you 2 times (or 1 time with an air/command hq present) base's required supply
for AF 3, you 5 times (or 1 time with a air/command hq present) base's required supply
for AF 2, you 6 times (or 2 times with a air/command hq present) base's required supply
for AF 1, you 7 times (or 3 times with a air/command hq present) base's required supply



< Message edited by michaelm -- 8/23/2009 10:39:31 AM >

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 11:52:26 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.


They aren't as good as in stock when in the air, as they die like flies up against fighters, even small numbers of them. One Beaufighter VIC squadron in my game has four aces in it after just one week of combat with Betties.

That said I do think this is a sorry state of affairs, if only because now the buggers can be anywhere. I think that makes some of the CENTPAC island chains unbelievably defensible. No longer is Kwajalein the key to an island chain, you have to suppress every single atoll with an airfield 2 which is basically impossible, and with leaky CAP - would you want to risk it?

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 12:01:29 PM   
EUBanana


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Status: offline 		There are a dozen air HQs in the Japanese OOB more or less in the early war, plus all the command HQs on top.

How many do you need?    Thats loads.   You're essentially swapping the scarce resource of level 4 airfields in WITP for the scarce resource of air HQs in AE (not so scarce at all, in fact, when you consider command radii).

I'm more receptive to the supply argument which might at least be in an issue in some CENTPAC island chain, but somewhere like, say, Malaya, or Burma, or Java, or even Timor, thats practically a non-issue.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 12:40:49 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.


They aren't as good as in stock when in the air, as they die like flies up against fighters, even small numbers of them. One Beaufighter VIC squadron in my game has four aces in it after just one week of combat with Betties.

That said I do think this is a sorry state of affairs, if only because now the buggers can be anywhere. I think that makes some of the CENTPAC island chains unbelievably defensible. No longer is Kwajalein the key to an island chain, you have to suppress every single atoll with an airfield 2 which is basically impossible, and with leaky CAP - would you want to risk it?


HISTORY

All Japanese attack aircraft needed an escort in 1942 to survive the Allied fighter defences.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 3:35:22 PM   
Brady


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Thier are several practile limatations as well-

-They must have fighter escort to operat agasnt CV's, or defended targets.

-In AE the chance of a strike going in without fighter cover even if one is present is prety good, meaning their toast.

-Stacking limits at bases mean something in AE, so you cant have a lot of them at small bases and have fighters their as well.

-Base sizes also dictate the range they will fly with torps.

-Target type also determines if they will actualy carry torps, if they have them available.

-Dection and trigering of an atack beyone 12 to 14 hexes is more or less imposable from the point of orgine.

-Range efects dramaticaly efect their abality to function with regard to putting ordance on target.

- A varity of factors make them almost usless agasnt fast warships

- They cant hit anything at night prety much all the time no mater what.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 4:07:27 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.


They aren't as good as in stock when in the air, as they die like flies up against fighters, even small numbers of them. One Beaufighter VIC squadron in my game has four aces in it after just one week of combat with Betties.

That said I do think this is a sorry state of affairs, if only because now the buggers can be anywhere. I think that makes some of the CENTPAC island chains unbelievably defensible. No longer is Kwajalein the key to an island chain, you have to suppress every single atoll with an airfield 2 which is basically impossible, and with leaky CAP - would you want to risk it?


I think it makes it very historical. No longer can the AFB put everything into taking a single base and cripple the Japanese player in the area. You're going to have to actually provide air cover to defend Kwajelien, and take Eniwetok and Wotje to secure it. You can still bypass the little dot bases, but you aren't going to be able to control the entire Marshall Islands chain just by taking one base.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 5:10:28 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.


They aren't as good as in stock when in the air, as they die like flies up against fighters, even small numbers of them. One Beaufighter VIC squadron in my game has four aces in it after just one week of combat with Betties.

That said I do think this is a sorry state of affairs, if only because now the buggers can be anywhere. I think that makes some of the CENTPAC island chains unbelievably defensible. No longer is Kwajalein the key to an island chain, you have to suppress every single atoll with an airfield 2 which is basically impossible, and with leaky CAP - would you want to risk it?


I think it makes it very historical. No longer can the AFB put everything into taking a single base and cripple the Japanese player in the area. You're going to have to actually provide air cover to defend Kwajelien, and take Eniwetok and Wotje to secure it. You can still bypass the little dot bases, but you aren't going to be able to control the entire Marshall Islands chain just by taking one base.



Except this doesent realy work that way in practile terms, for a Human in a PBEM game as the Japanese they will nead to move an HQ in with suficient range to cover all those isalnds, most HQ's have short ranges and basicaly cant cover much more than their own hex.

Thier are other factors that compound the problem of defending the Mandates as well, some of which I illuted to above, non the least of which is spoting enemy TF's at ranges beyond 12 hexes.

Stacking is an obvious one as most of the Mandates are limited to 6K for stacking, you put a big HQ their and you have used up a lot of stacking space.

Human Japanese players nead to wory over the mandates, particluarly in PBEM games, that is if keeping them is something their interested in doing.

< Message edited by Brady -- 8/23/2009 6:01:28 PM >

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 8:11:36 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Are you guys actually saying that in AE a Betty level bomber (for example) can carry torpedoes when operating out of a size 2 airfield?

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 9:17:48 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Are you guys actually saying that in AE a Betty level bomber (for example) can carry torpedoes when operating out of a size 2 airfield?


Yes, this aplys to all bombers though, the airfield restrictions in stock are not the same as AE, AE is more realistic in this (and overall) than stock was.

A Betty with a Torp (full load) had about the same Take Off run as a fully loaded P-38.

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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 11:15:14 PM   
Sheytan


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Status: offline 		The HQ Radius needs to be 1 hex for this purpose...

The HQ needs to be a AIR HQ for this purpose...THAT Air HQ needs to have ready torpedos available as per the new air support units/hqs with them stocked. Not simply...sufficent supply. I thought that was the entire PURPOSE of those new units.

The recon to strike issue is a NON issue, I would simply park subs in impending target hexes where I knew the allies are massing...

Why would you need to put the entire unit hq there? I would bet you can probably effect the same thing with a HQ fragment no?

This really is a very bad compromise to what people had been saying about the IJ torpedo bomber mania from WITP, as I said its easier now, not harder. I can set up a torpedo bomber overlap that would span the areas from tarawa all the way to india under this system now.

Further the escort comment is a no issue as well, since allied CVs are few and far between for a consideralbe portion of the game, meaning...and uncapped TF is going to get murdered by these bombers.

Very disappointed...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan
So once again betty abuse is going to be too easy to effect...wow. Now im really disappointed with the game. Wasnt enough said about IJ torpedo bomber abuse in WITP?
in essence there IS NO limitations at all here.


They aren't as good as in stock when in the air, as they die like flies up against fighters, even small numbers of them. One Beaufighter VIC squadron in my game has four aces in it after just one week of combat with Betties.

That said I do think this is a sorry state of affairs, if only because now the buggers can be anywhere. I think that makes some of the CENTPAC island chains unbelievably defensible. No longer is Kwajalein the key to an island chain, you have to suppress every single atoll with an airfield 2 which is basically impossible, and with leaky CAP - would you want to risk it?


I think it makes it very historical. No longer can the AFB put everything into taking a single base and cripple the Japanese player in the area. You're going to have to actually provide air cover to defend Kwajelien, and take Eniwetok and Wotje to secure it. You can still bypass the little dot bases, but you aren't going to be able to control the entire Marshall Islands chain just by taking one base.



Except this doesent realy work that way in practile terms, for a Human in a PBEM game as the Japanese they will nead to move an HQ in with suficient range to cover all those isalnds, most HQ's have short ranges and basicaly cant cover much more than their own hex.

Thier are other factors that compound the problem of defending the Mandates as well, some of which I illuted to above, non the least of which is spoting enemy TF's at ranges beyond 12 hexes.

Stacking is an obvious one as most of the Mandates are limited to 6K for stacking, you put a big HQ their and you have used up a lot of stacking space.

Human Japanese players nead to wory over the mandates, particluarly in PBEM games, that is if keeping them is something their interested in doing.


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/23/2009 11:43:18 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
A Betty with a Torp (full load) had about the same Take Off run as a fully loaded P-38.


I presume theres more to an airfield than that - services and such. Otherwise why the administrative penalties? Torpedoes are specialised ordnance, hence why they have all these hoops to jump through. But if the hoops are for naught because they are easily circumscribed...


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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 12:28:13 AM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
A Betty with a Torp (full load) had about the same Take Off run as a fully loaded P-38.


I presume theres more to an airfield than that - services and such. Otherwise why the administrative penalties? Torpedoes are specialised ordnance, hence why they have all these hoops to jump through. But if the hoops are for naught because they are easily circumscribed...



Thier is, Torp Bombers would also have torps on hand 99% of the time given that was their reasion for existing, thats not the case in AE.

After countless hours playing both stock and AE, the Nettys in AE are way more restrianed than stock, in fact I generaly refer to them as neutered.



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RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 12:37:28 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

There are a dozen air HQs in the Japanese OOB more or less in the early war, plus all the command HQs on top.

How many do you need?    Thats loads.   You're essentially swapping the scarce resource of level 4 airfields in WITP for the scarce resource of air HQs in AE (not so scarce at all, in fact, when you consider command radii).

I'm more receptive to the supply argument which might at least be in an issue in some CENTPAC island chain, but somewhere like, say, Malaya, or Burma, or Java, or even Timor, thats practically a non-issue.



A dozen? Try 5 that are at all usefull. You've got the 11th Airfleet and the 21st, 22nd, 23rd and 24th Air Flotillas (and based on initial location, the 24th is basically useless). So, you've got 4 Air HQ's and the Southern Army Command HQ. That's all. On top of that, the Air Flotillas can only handle one base at a time (range of 1 hex). So, three of your five HQ's can only deal with a single air base. The other only has a range of 3 or 4, so its also not terribly useful. The Southern Army HQ then is the only really useful one. When you said a dozen, I assume you're including the ones permanently stationed in the Home Islands or the China Theater. For all practical purposes, these are useless until the allies come knocking on the door of Tokyo.

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Post #: 23
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 12:42:10 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Why would you need to put the entire unit hq there? I would bet you can probably effect the same thing with a HQ fragment no?



Fragments don't work. When you have fragments, you don't get the "Torpedo Ordnance" device. So, only the "parent" fragment will actually supply torpedoes.

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Post #: 24
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 12:44:57 AM   
Icedawg


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Status: offline 		I had another question related to this topic. Where are these base forces that have torpedo ordnance capabilities? The manual says there are base forces that can be used to supply torpedoes. Where are they? Or are they just limited to the allied side?

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Post #: 25
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 1:49:15 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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Status: offline 		Unescorted Betties get shredded now. In two of my PBEM games I have P-36 aces from shooting down unescorted Betties and Nells over the PI.
Just because you can send a HQ to an island and build a size 2 airfield does not mean you can domniate the skies. IJN bombers have to have fighter escort in order to be effective.
And even under escort they cannot prevent some fighters from penetrating the escort screen and attacking the bombers. Escorts do not stick to bombers like glue now. You have cordinating and altitude to think about now. And as dogfighting begins the escorts are pulled to different altitudes and away from the bombers which is realistic. In WitP it seemed like excorting fighters fought all of their dogfights and the game engine never accounted for this would effect the escorts being pulled away from escorting duty.
The air war in AE feels almost perfect IMO. Surface combat needs some fixes but they have pretty much nailed air to air combat.

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Post #: 26
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 2:17:55 AM   
Sheytan


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Status: offline 		Point is you dont need those HQs now do you? ANY HQ can support this function with sufficent supply, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Why would you need to put the entire unit hq there? I would bet you can probably effect the same thing with a HQ fragment no?



Fragments don't work. When you have fragments, you don't get the "Torpedo Ordnance" device. So, only the "parent" fragment will actually supply torpedoes.


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Post #: 27
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 2:26:57 AM   
Mynok


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Yes, but the Japanese need those HQs for lots of other things besides torp supply. The restrictions are a lot more effective than you are giving them credit for.



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Post #: 28
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 2:33:53 AM   
Nomad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Point is you dont need those HQs now do you? ANY HQ can support this function with sufficent supply, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Why would you need to put the entire unit hq there? I would bet you can probably effect the same thing with a HQ fragment no?



Fragments don't work. When you have fragments, you don't get the "Torpedo Ordnance" device. So, only the "parent" fragment will actually supply torpedoes.




Not any HQ, only Command HQs and a lot of them have a command radius of 1, so they are not real useful for providing torpedoes. There are a couple of Command HQs with more range but on small bases you will be using a lot of supply to launch torpedoes and you just don't always have enough.

_____________________________


(in reply to Sheytan)
Post #: 29
RE: Torpedo Ordnance - 8/24/2009 2:51:55 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		8/12/41

56 total HQs for IJ.
---------------------------------------------------
25 of 46 land/naval restricted. I see only perma restricted HQs here.
A number of these HQ group have command radius of 9!!!


Fragmented HQs-
---------------------------------------------------
25th army-2-5/elements 4- Fragmented.

14th army-2-3/elements 2- Fragmented.



10 AIR HQ-ALL of these have 100 torp device stores as component
---------------------------------------------------
4 restricted total/-3 perma restricted-1 can be reassigned.

6 have HQ radius of 1.

4 have HQ radius of 4. Of these, only the 1st is perma restricted. One can be reassigned.


84 reinforcement HQs
---------------------------------------------------

There are 40 Air type HQs appearing as reinforcements.


NOTES-I did not look to see how many are withdrawls in this list however if you combine the

two fragmented HQ's you get 52 at start. Assume every HQ withdraws at some point, you are

left with a additional 28 HQs with a total of 80...HQ's for IJ by wars end.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 30
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