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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/3/2009 10:02:49 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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the name of the books sound like something I was looking at, but don't think I picked it up, not in the range of what I was doing at the time (in the old days, about 80% of my stuff was east front, or aircraft in general)

well, yea, think about it, you flying mission after mission, and basicly, each mission, you kicking butt, but tomorrow, you going to be flying more and more, and still kicking butt, but, there are always more, and each day, one or two of the good guys go down, a mistake here, or there, that got to be ruff on the mindset

Hehe, depends on the Sim and all, but I really like the F (most want to fly the K because of the big gun, but I can dance in a F)

the YAK 3 is maybe 2nd on my list, one of the best fights you could get into was a F vs a 3 with a decent driver in each, now that is a knife fight

LOL, during a beta test on gunners, I was flying a Frank with 30mm's, dive down, pull up under the B-17 and fire into the ball turret, but, tended to knock the bomber down too !, guy flying the bomber was getting mad, so made me get a Oscar instead (I could put 80 out of 100 rounds into the turret, with out hurting the bomber, most times, the gunner either !!!)

but the bomber guy had to do some work, so wanted us to hang around, so me and the other tester started dogfighting, he later posted in the testers forum, that if you enter a room and see HARD_Sarge flying a Oscar, leave the room

:)

LOL, was in a full real room, and we had a guy in a Tempest picking on us, diving from 20 K in a 400 plus plane, 4 20mm's not much you can do, but duck and roll, when ever he came down, but in full real, you have to catch him when he starts his dive, or you not going to know it, I went and grabbed a another plane, to give me a chance, set myself up as the protector of our group, and man, I was doing a lot of complaining over the chat channel, I was lighting this guy up, and nothing, over and over, finally he got fed up, I had scored a Ace on him (5 kills in a row without dying) as we were landing and getting ready to leave, my mates were like, so what did you get to drive him off ? told em, I got me a Tojo, they all started laffing at me, when I came in to land, they told me I better look again, in my rush, I had grabbed a Oscar, now you know you got skills, when you can beat a energy fighter in a energy fight, with a plane with no energy !!!!

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/5/2009 5:08:47 PM

kingwanabee

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Much thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my question on a good book. I shopped around at the local used book store which has a large section on military history, but didn't really find anything interesting. Since there was no real concensus here, I went back to Borders and bought "Masters of the Air" by Donald Miller.

I'm not very far into it yet, but the begining has some interesting info about the debate in the inter-war years about the future of airpower. Billy Mitchell was quite the fanatic, but his ideas shaped the American doctrine of precision daylight bombing. I'm also struck by the immense logistical build-up achieved by the US in Britain in a relatively short time period.

After I finish this book I think I'll search for a good one about the Battle of Britain. Is there anything good about the air war in Africa/Sicily/Italy? What about the Eastern Front?

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/5/2009 5:28:26 PM

kaybayray

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I just picked up a few books as well.

Angels of Death

Seems to be akin to a Biography of Goering. Very interesting read IMO so far. Only about 1/5 into it. We will see, but it is interesting.

Flyboys
Man this author is really down on US and Western Europe. About 1/4 through it and IMO he is blaming the entire Pacific war initiated by Japan on Britain and America because we are so evil and corrupt. the book is touted on the preview as being about several flyers that crash landed during attacks on Chichi Jima, including George H. Bush. But if he doesnt stop thrashing Western Civilization and get to the point of the book soon this ones going back to the Used book store. At this point would not recommend this unless you absolutely are disgusted with evil and decadent Britain and America. Then you will love it.

The Few

Havnt started this but the Author touts it as the story of several pilots the flew in BOB.

Thanks for this post. I will be looking for these titles as well. There is another thread in here somewhere that lists some books about the overall Strategic Air War but they are quite expensive. Found one for several hundred $ but cant afford to spend that much at the moment. I will in the not to distant future.

Later,
KayBay

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/5/2009 6:10:57 PM

Hard Sarge

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The Few

Havnt started this but the Author touts it as the story of several pilots the flew in BOB.

is that the one about the Yanks ? if so, a good book (Alex Kershaw)

it all depends on what you want to read or are interested in

Angels Eight is a good book about the landing in D-Day and the movement of a Wing of Spits to France (Angels 8 is the Alt that pilots felt safe to fly over the front, too high for light/med AA and too low for Heavy) the Writers Brother died with this wing in a air to air crash, all the years spent trying to find out what happened, he got a lot of info and feeling for the people who were there

some of the after war studies are good, when the were talking to the German POWs and trying to get info out of them, about the hows and whys and what they thought

(the best story from one of those is about the Scarecrow Flak shell, all of the English wanted to know what it was and how it was made and why it was made and how it didn't fool BC, and none of the German Officers knew what they were talking about, then one of them finally explained, the Scarecrow Flak was a shell fired to look like a Bomber exploding, to scare the other pilots who seen it, but the pilots in BC knew about the shell, and when they seen it, knew what it was, and a lot of them would laff or grin, when they seen it, knowing that Gerry was just trying to scare them, the German Officer looked at him, shook his head and explained that the Germans never made a shell to do that, those were bombers exploding that were being seen)

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/5/2009 7:37:57 PM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

King;

There was a two volume set -- decades ago -- called "The AirWar", author was Jablonski (sp?) I've never found a "really good" one that covered everything.

A copy of which I purchased on Ebay a few years back in excellent condition. The Aurthor is Jablonksi. I've always called the series "Jablonkis Air War".

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/8/2009 4:48:47 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kingwanabee

After I finish this book I think I'll search for a good one about the Battle of Britain. Is there anything good about the air war in Africa/Sicily/Italy? What about the Eastern Front?

Several.

I liked Peter Townsend's Dual of Eagles for an overall history as well as Eagle Day: The Battle of Britian by Richard Collier.

If you want a more detailed story on how Britian formed it's pilot squadrons pre-war and maintained them during the battle you might want to check out Patrick Bishop's "Fighter boys: The battle of Britian 1940"

For Africa: the best books i can recommend covering North Africa from start to the end in Tunisia are Chris Shore's out of print books "Fighters over the Desert and Fighters over Tunisia. Good overview and summary as well as day by day descriptions of major operations.

Eastern Front. Crister Bergstrom's Black Cross/Red Star are probably the most comprehensive but pricy. (Vol one especially)

The author has written some more recent books on major Eastern Front air battles. Some updated info but less detail overall i'm told.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/13/2009 11:56:52 AM

menik

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kingwanabee
Is there anything good about the air war in Africa/Sicily/Italy? What about the Eastern Front?

About Malta:
Caruana R., Victory in the Air, Modelaid Internat. Pub., 1997, Malta (with a lot of detailed illustrations)
Ibid. Air War over the Med., Modelaid Internat. Pub.. 1990
Shores C., Mediterranean Air War, Vol III, IanAllan, 1974
Shores, Cull & Malizia, Malta: the Hurricane Years, Grub Street 1987
Shores, Cull & Malizia, Malta: the Spitfire Years, Grub Street 1990

If you can understand italian: Malizia N. Inferno su Malta, Mursia, Milano, 1976
ht

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/15/2009 11:57:02 PM

kaybayray

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Hard Sarge,
Yes The Few is that book by Alex. Still havnt started it. RL is keeping me pretty busy these days.

Later,
KayBay

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/17/2009 9:35:49 AM

JeffroK

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As an unbeliever in most Fighter pilots claims, I think you need to recheck your use of Christopher Shore's books to support your arguements.

He makes a point in his later books about not trusting 100% in anyones claims and in an article about the AVG seriously puts a question about some og their claims.

It would be interesting to see a list of Marseille's victims on his great day.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/17/2009 9:51:11 AM

JeffroK

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Christopher Shore's article, I'll see if I can find where it came from, I think it was from the 12 O'Clock High Forum.

Chris Shores on AVG combat claims Recently there's been a heated discussion on the AVG veterans' message board about what the British aviation historian Christopher Shores wrote about over-claiming in the Battle of Burma. Soon the argument spread to the Twelve O'clock High forum. In the end, Mr. Shores added his tuppennys' worth, which appears below: * * * * Firstly, those who seek to attack what I have written on the subject should be made aware that I found AVG claims no more or less unreliable than those of most other air forces I have researched. Always the circumstances of each engagement needs to be looked at carefully. In fighter-v-fighter combats the claim:loss ratio always seems to climb rapidly, multiplied by the numbers of aircraft/units involved. In Burma the AVG were often fighting over jungle and attacked in steep dives before climbing back for altitude. Good tactics, but fraught with opportunities for double claiming - or triple claiming for that matter. When I wrote ' Fighters over the Desert' way back in the 1960s, I could not understand why I kept finding claims that I could not verify when I seemed to have all the available records to hand. It was only years later, and after I had been attacked by apologists for just about every air force in the world, that I found in the official British war histories published in the early/mid 1950s a clear warning that claim totals were likelty to be inflated and could not be relied upon - and that was admitted within ten years of the end of WWII !! Indeed, overclaiming, albeit in the best of good faith in most cases, certainly seems to have been endemic in aerial combat. It happened on every front and with every air force. Some (though not all) Luftwaffe units and Finnish units were considerably more accurate than most, most of the time. Fighter pilots by and large were young, aggressive and optimistic men who knew what they should be seeing and wanted to see. Even now, some still get very upset when it is pointed out that something they were quite certain had happened (and wanted to have happened) had not in fact occurred just as they recalled it. Others are much more pragmatic and realistic - and strangely, it is usually the latter whose claims prove to be easier to verify as having been accurate (or at least reasonably so). I always remind myself of the little verse Barrett Tillman recited once - "You can tell a bomber pilot by the spread across his rear, and by the ring around his eye, you can tell a bombardier; you can tell a navigator by his maps and charts and such, and you can tell a fighter pilot - but you can't tell him much !" Just for the record, I love it when I can find a loss that fits a claim so that I can properly confirm what actually happened at the time. It gives me no joy at all to have to point out that there was not a loss for a particular claim. I love the world of fighter pilots and have spent more than 40 years of my life researching and recording their exploits. But in doing so if one is to retain credibility as a historian, one must look at the full picture, not just one side. In ' Bill; a Pilot's Story' by Brooklyn Harris, the author records how day after day Japanese formations kept returning to targets in the Solomons despite the losses apparently being inflicted on them by the 13th Air Force. It never once occurred to the author that perhaps the reason for the apparently inexhaustible supply of aircraft the Japanese seemed to have available to them - something to which he specifically referred - might have indicated that at least in part the losses they were actually suffering were not as severe as those being claimed. To research matters from as wide a perspective as possible and to report the results as accurately as one can, should reflect no shame on those participating except in the occasional and thankfully rare occasions when some individual is deliberately falsifying their contribution. (The latter did happen now and again, but fortunately [sic] not often). From my own researches I can certainly state that the vast majority of fighter pilots (and aircrew generally) of all nations did their duty in an exemplary fashion. If anyone has done them a disservice I would suggest that it was more likely to be those who wrote about them carelessly for sensational and propaganda purposes - not those who have tried to be objective and honest in recording history to the best of their abilities. Personally, I am always pleased to be able to update and correct any statement I have recorded in the past where further or more reliable evidence becomes available. If you should feel it appropriate to include these words on the Forum I would be grateful. If you feel it is too long, then fine. Kind regards,
Chris

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/17/2009 1:02:39 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

As an unbeliever in most Fighter pilots claims, I think you need to recheck your use of Christopher Shore's books to support your arguements.

He makes a point in his later books about not trusting 100% in anyones claims and in an article about the AVG seriously puts a question about some og their claims.

It would be interesting to see a list of Marseille's victims on his great day.

Read what was written, the SA and Aussies lost many more planes that day, in those areas then he claimed

plus that is the whole point of most of Shores work, is getting the details from both sides

also, remember, most nations, were very "bad" about admitting they had lost anything, a plane that get hits, is in flames and seen going down, is a kill, the pilot crashes it, and they come out and pull the junk away, that wasn't listed a loss or a plane shot down, the pilot had to crash while coming in to land

now, what gets odd, is the Russian Front, where everybody wants to say, the Ge Pilots didn't get that many kills and they were overclaiming, but the Russians admit to losing more planes then the Ge Claim to have shot down

for the AVG, that can get a little ruffer, as most statements now, are about "kills" that they could find, anything that went down in the deep jungle, or the water, can't be counted, as they couldn't find them

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/18/2009 12:12:36 PM

DBS

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A very good book on 205 Group's 1944 bombing and mining campaign vs Romania is From Darkness to Light, by Patrick MacDonald. He was the British Defence Attache in Bucharest in the 90s, with the duty of wreath laying at the cemeteries, and this got him interested in researching the RAF ops; including aircrew recalling night mining runs down the Danube at 50 feet in a Liberator, with the waist gunners engaging the flak on the river banks. Also a lot in it on the POW experiences of those downed.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/18/2009 9:15:16 PM

Howard Mitchell

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For Bomber Command I would recommend:

1. Anything by Martin Middlebrooke, who has written excellent books on battles or single raids.
2. Bomber Command 1939-1945 by Richard Overy. Out of print but very good at showing what Bomber Command achieved. (Overy has a 500 page paperback entitled The Bombing War coming out next year which looks promising).
3. If your wallet stretches that far, the four volumes of the British Official History The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany are still the most in-depth study of Bomber Command, almost entirely based on primary sources.

For the Eastern Front Andrew Brookes has written a useful single volume history, Air War Over Russia.

I personally think Crister Bergstrom's Black Cross Red Star books are over-rated. While they cover the whole eastern front they do so in fairly rigid time slots, and at the rate they are being published I doubt the series will ever be finished. The four separate volumes he has written since on the air campaigns of Barbarossa, Stalingrad, Kursk and Bagration are well worth reading. The level of day-by-day detail they contain varies considerably. The last on the war from June 1944 to its end covers a huge theatre and nearly a year, but the volume on Kursk looks at a battle lasting less than a month on a 250 km front. They have also been written as stand-alone volumes, useful if you only want one but it does mean that each volume has to summarise the preceding ones to set the scene.

The Most Dangerous Enemy by Stephen Bungay would be my recommendation for a single volume history of the Battle of Britain.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/18/2009 9:26:37 PM

Howard Mitchell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

now, what gets odd, is the Russian Front, where everybody wants to say, the Ge Pilots didn't get that many kills and they were overclaiming, but the Russians admit to losing more planes then the Ge Claim to have shot down

I don't know about the Soviets loosing more aircraft (in air-to-air combat?) than the Germans claimed to have shot down, but IIRC Bergstrom mentions in his book on the air battle over Kursk that the Germans would sometimes fail to note an aircraft lost as being shot down because they were keen to keep up their units kill:loss ratio, whereas the Soviets would often record one lost in an accident as being destroyed due to enemy action - because there was a real risk that writing off an aircraft in a flying accident would be seem as an act of anti-Soviet sabotage with potentially leathal results for the pilot concerned.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/18/2009 9:36:12 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Read what was written, the SA and Aussies lost many more planes that day, in those areas then he claimed

plus that is the whole point of most of Shores work, is getting the details from both sides

Yup, and it's written clearly enough that one can establish a system by which claims are seperated from what is verified. Its given me a good idea on estimated losses for a number of theaters, including Burma.

quote:

also, remember, most nations, were very "bad" about admitting they had lost anything, a plane that get hits, is in flames and seen going down, is a kill, the pilot crashes it, and they come out and pull the junk away, that wasn't listed a loss or a plane shot down, the pilot had to crash while coming in to land

Yup.....its also worth noting that in more than one situation, claiming by various units/nations at times could be very accurate. On reported hits and claims, i've lost count of the number of times an eyewitness had described what would appear to have been an undisputable kill (plane exploded.....plane hit the water....plane hit the ground and exploded) only to have the research later show that the unit's records indicate that all planes returned safely.

quote:

now, what gets odd, is the Russian Front, where everybody wants to say, the Ge Pilots didn't get that many kills and they were overclaiming, but the Russians admit to losing more planes then the Ge Claim to have shot down

There were several instances where German claims were actually closely mirrored by Soviet records. While the Eastern Front combat is too massive and chaotic to ever get a Shores like day by day accounting, Bergman's books are filled with alot of good data on losses by summary and by specific periods. Worth the cost for me. Currently reading Vol II with Vol III on order.

quote:

for the AVG, that can get a little ruffer, as most statements now, are about "kills" that they could find, anything that went down in the deep jungle, or the water, can't be counted, as they couldn't find them

I recently purchased Dan Ford's book on the AVG to compare with Shores. Unsuprisingly, i found the numbers to be close. Shores's book was much better organized though.

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RE: Books about the European air war - 9/18/2009 9:41:38 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell

I don't know about the Soviets loosing more aircraft (in air-to-air combat?) than the Germans claimed to have shot down, but IIRC Bergstrom mentions in his book on the air battle over Kursk that the Germans would sometimes fail to note an aircraft lost as being shot down because they were keen to keep up their units kill:loss ratio, whereas the Soviets would often record one lost in an accident as being destroyed due to enemy action - because there was a real risk that writing off an aircraft in a flying accident would be seem as an act of anti-Soviet sabotage with potentially leathal results for the pilot concerned.

On June 22, 1941 German reports estimated they had destroyed 1,849 aircraft on the ground...an amazing figure which was doubted by high up German authorities. Needless to say when wrecks were counted...the figure exceeded 2000, which stunned everyone even more.

Soviet sources ended up confirming most of the German claims that days....curiously enough, Soviet sources listed 336 aerial losses which exceeded the German claims which were for 322.

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