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RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/25/2010 5:14:41 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		How is combat efficency modeled? Some formations have been in offensive combat for three months in the AAR, are they not showing signs of fatigue? It has after all been tough fighting rather than exploitation warfare like Blau (for units not involved in Stalingrad and until Kleist ran out of supply). Do units just fight on indefinately without much effect.

Also during the foul weather months of mud, frost and snow is recovery of units and the arrival of replacements the same pace as normal good weather. Surely the Russians must have an advantage being the home team. Would be good if units sent far to the rear ie Germany recovered and replaced quicker than those held in local reserve in Russia.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 5/25/2010 5:16:52 PM >

(in reply to ajds)
Post #: 811
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/25/2010 5:50:54 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		units take Fat from doing just about anything (moving, fighting) and the more Fat the sub units in the unit have, the less it's efficency is

each week, you regain/lower your fat levels, but units that are high in Fat, will not lose as much, so will start the next week, with more Fat

a fine line in the game, you need to keep pushing, as much and as deep as you can, but the more you do so, the weaker you are, if you hang back, the enemy gets stronger, more dug in, and HARDer to push out


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Post #: 812
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/25/2010 6:52:02 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I'm glad to see you put in the weather zones, those make sense. Russia is very very big, even by US standards, and that map does it proper, awe inspiring justice.


(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 813
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 1:26:32 PM   
USSLockwood

 

Posts: 543
Joined: 8/16/2002
Status: offline 		Just curious if the German player's economy improves if he captures industrial and resource locations within the USSR?  Are the Germans able to use captured assets?  It would make the oil of the Caucasus region very tempting.

< Message edited by doktor -- 5/28/2010 5:44:33 PM >

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Post #: 814
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 1:32:46 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Caucasus?   Oil?   Now, that reminds me of someone...can't quite place who...  

(in reply to USSLockwood)
Post #: 815
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 2:28:07 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		okay, I thought somebody had asked about some of the To&Es of some units, and Jaw said he didn't have the snaps on hand

so I forgot and then remembered, so here are some if this is what you were looking for

42 Inf vs 43 Inf




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 816
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 2:28:45 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		44 Inf




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 817
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 2:29:47 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		best I could do off hand for Pz, here is 42 vs 44 Panzer Div




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 818
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 4:26:46 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for the screenies

How is it possible that a division goes above its official TO&E? Do divisions resist giving up equipment (a la II SS Panzerkorps before Arnhem) or maybe replacements and repaired systems arrive at the same time?

Interesting - guess the '44 versions have more firepower and AT capabilities

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Post #: 819
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 5:10:56 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		most times you will see that with merged units, newly formed units, combined units

the game is set up, so you can be over the number, but it will then start sending stuff back to the pool


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Post #: 820
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 5:51:53 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
Put my reply to you guys here

@ FlaviusX.

The offensive is being mounted by practically every mobile formation on the Eastern Front. True there is a problem with the AI but before you look at that you have to make sure your parameters and the enviroment your game lives in is correct are as near as one can get it and still be playable and have a positive experience. What you are seeing is a total contradiction of the capabilties of the Werhmacht, a bludgeon rather than a rapier.
The staff work alone never mind the Hiwi's and trucks to shunt supplies from depot to railhead to further advanced railhead to supply dump to front is bewildering repeat evey time a new one is captured. All coming from the Reich, all tactically loaded on an infinte capacity rail network. The German army simply did not have the support that you are seeing they relied on mobility to break through to the green fields beyond and get motoring (sorry the sun baked Steppe beyond) Not bludgeon a line surround the units nearby move the front forward 30 miles allow a line to form rinse and repeat. If you told me what I'm seeing was a world war I simulator I would be impressed. With the qualitive edge the Germans should have in game you will start to see Death stars in operation with this level of logistics and replacement.
For offensives of this nature there would have to be meticulous preperation sacrificing time for a chnace of success but it is all done on the hoof.

@ ComeradeP
By the start of the 42 season the OKH believed they would only have enough resources to straighten the line in places. Not good enough for Hitler though who was on a race against time. You are correct there is no way in hell the Germans could sustain this offensive

@ Von Jaeger
Nope it derives from Smirnoff Vodka. It seems to me the majority of the offensive formations are in attack mode. Half the total Russian front is a lot of front.

If you get the enviroment correct you will go along way to protecting the AI not through one that cheats but by actually giving the world gravity. A world where the player (The German one at least) will have to take on large scale calculated and imaginative risks for victory. One where he has to use the rapier.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 821
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 6:02:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		you are not seeing PD's supply needs and what he is getting, if his game is like any of mine, he will be lucky to have at most 50% of the trucks his units need, and the same or less that he needs in the pool for sending out supplies, plus he should have between 50-100,000 Trucks in repair each week

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Post #: 822
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 6:32:30 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		my current turn, I have about 60-65% of my unit truck needs

about dead on 50% for supply needs

and 113747 truck in repair


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Post #: 823
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 7:47:00 PM   
The SNAFU


Posts: 48
Joined: 3/10/2010
Status: offline 		Why is there such concern that PD is operating what appears to amount to 6 armies in his 1942 offensive. That doesnt seem to me as being out of line when compared to the forces deployed and huge area covered during the actual 1942 campaign which extended deep into the caucasus while simultaneously advancing all the way to the Volga and Stalingrad.

In order to do their 1942 campaign the Germans found themselves advancing in a series of starts and stops due to supply issues and the need to regroup. PD's offensive has been somewhat similar with attacks in a few sectors while others rested. To say the Germans could not have attacked in similar fashion in 1942 would seem to ignore the actual concerns of Stalin which centered on the belief that the Germans would attack toward Moscow with sufficient forces as to pose a real threat there.

With respect to the AI, I would be interested in any recommendations of pc games in which the AI is a real challenge to an experienced human player. To date, I have not found a wargame where the AI was capable of defeating a good human player. At best I hope it can give me enough of a challenge to keep it interesting while I learn the game rules and mechanics in preparation for PBEM. The inadquacy of today's AI is compounded the larger the battle. In a conflict the size of the Eastern Front the challenge of building an competent AI is huge. It seems as though the AI, which is still in Alpha afterall has done fairly well for the most part particularly when considering there are no Victory Conditions in the game yet (AFAIK) and as PD has play tested the thing for a long time. The AI has been changed a number of times during PD's AAR so there has been no consistency in it's gameplay which I think has a negative impact on how it has operated over the course of the game. It clearly needs to do better using reserves and covering the more critical areas but overall it hasnt been bad at all in my opinion for an Alpha build. I've played plenty of games where the AI cannot even manage a continuous front line and makes regular suicidal attacks while the world around it is crumbling.



< Message edited by The SNAFU -- 5/28/2010 7:52:52 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 8:29:01 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Smirfy, he isn't using all his mobile units at the same time for the most part, some of them get pulled out of the line and rested. He's done this twice now with Kliest, for example. He's got some mobile units on the flanks that have been operating on a fairly low tempo, too.

And in the end, the AI is the problem. German logistics aren't being properly challenged here because the AI is such a freaking patsy. Those panzers would've ground to a halt long ago against Sarge. PD is completely inside the AI's decision loop, has been for the entire game, and is making it react exactly as he pleases. The machine has no plan, has no idea of a plan, and I do not believe even knows the meaning of the word plan.

If you want to perform a truly first class stress test of the logistics system of the game, you need oponents playing at a similar level. Look at the AAR for waht it really is: a stress test of the programmed opponent.

(in reply to The SNAFU)
Post #: 825
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 9:34:07 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		From my experience testing the AI, the strength of the AI is inversely proportional to the amount of time you spend playing the game. The first time you play, even at normal level, the AI will surprise you, and during the first winter you will be hammered - check Elmo's AAR. Andy who has play tested the game the most, can rip the challenging level AI to shreds, capturing Leningrad and Moscow by turn 13! But even he is struggling on the Hard AI setting - only Joel seems to be able to survive on hard, but it is his game so that it to be expected!

I am playing my fifth 1941 campaign, but am using custom settings, trying to find the level that is the most fun.

Of course the AI can be tricked and trapped, but it can also trick and trap you, which means you always have something to think about.

I am sure that the testing will result in the AI being fine tuned even more.

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Post #: 826
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 10:38:17 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Big A - I think you've caught the essence of my point very well, about us all learning how the AI plays .   Of course we'll learn to beat it.   But I for one expect to get kicked about a bit as I learn.  I certainly do not want to be unduly critical - this AI is a good piece of work, and it seems to be doing a much better job than plenty I've seen and played. 

Smirfy:  I think you are right to be concerned about the model regarding logistics, fatigue and all, but I have also seen and heard Jon muttering about his supply and his C+C every few posts, and have read lots about it on the forum.   I'm not an expert in logistics or in programming, but I have read quite a bit, and I have been assured by what has been asked about and shared in the posts that many, many issues have been discussed, fought over and resolved by the development team.   The SNAFU has the right of it for me, in 1942 the Germans operated with huge forces and across vast distances right through the Summer, in operations involving several armies at once, bogging down in to a final, 'last battalion' type pitched battle at Stalingrad, with several armies still going at it and supporting it, and being heavily reinforced in to the Autumn.   There were some pretty bold thrusts through this fighting for sure, but also a lot of hard fighting (eg 6 armies, including 2 panzer armies, involved in the operation to clear the Don bend), and a helluva lot of marching (more than in Jon's game)!   And they kept going, just getting weaker and more and more stretched.  I am sure that the Germans are getting pretty punch drunk and depleted in the game, and so are the Russians.    

I want some number crunchers (I use the term with affection, fellahs, and there's plenty of you out there) to check in and tell us about the relative size of the forces that were active in summer '42, and the supply issues, wear and tear etc compared to what we see in the game.    I bet it's not so very different.    

Flavius: I can sense that this is a matter of some concern for you - I feel pretty passionate about this game too, and want it to be excellent.   I do want you to think a bit longer about the way you post here, as you have obviously thought hard and long about what it is you want to say.   In the last two posts - the one above and the one in the AAR - I/we have had direct instructions from you about what to think and do ("don't even try to defend it" and "look at the AAR for what it really is: a stress test of the programmed opponent").   Argue for all your worth but please don't try and impose those arguments on me.   

I want to defend the AI - it looks pretty good to me (and we all know it is only ever going to be a software programme).  

And I don't agree that there is only one  way (the true way!) to describe PD's AAR - to me it is a test of what looks to be a well made war game, a playable simulation, and it is an extremely interesting discussion about strategy and operational tactics within that simulation.  And it's quite funny sometimes.   I do agree with you that it would be different between PD and Hard Sarge, of course.    Anyway tell me I'm talking crap, tell me again if you wish, but please don't tell me what to think.   I stopped working for someone for doing that, and they used to pay me!   



(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 827
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 10:38:51 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The SNAFU

Why is there such concern that PD is operating what appears to amount to 6 armies in his 1942 offensive. That doesnt seem to me as being out of line when compared to the forces deployed and huge area covered during the actual 1942 campaign which extended deep into the caucasus while simultaneously advancing all the way to the Volga and Stalingrad.

In order to do their 1942 campaign the Germans found themselves advancing in a series of starts and stops due to supply issues and the need to regroup. PD's offensive has been somewhat similar with attacks in a few sectors while others rested. To say the Germans could not have attacked in similar fashion in 1942 would seem to ignore the actual concerns of Stalin which centered on the belief that the Germans would attack toward Moscow with sufficient forces as to pose a real threat there.

With respect to the AI, I would be interested in any recommendations of pc games in which the AI is a real challenge to an experienced human player. To date, I have not found a wargame where the AI was capable of defeating a good human player. At best I hope it can give me enough of a challenge to keep it interesting while I learn the game rules and mechanics in preparation for PBEM. The inadquacy of today's AI is compounded the larger the battle. In a conflict the size of the Eastern Front the challenge of building an competent AI is huge. It seems as though the AI, which is still in Alpha afterall has done fairly well for the most part particularly when considering there are no Victory Conditions in the game yet (AFAIK) and as PD has play tested the thing for a long time. The AI has been changed a number of times during PD's AAR so there has been no consistency in it's gameplay which I think has a negative impact on how it has operated over the course of the game. It clearly needs to do better using reserves and covering the more critical areas but overall it hasnt been bad at all in my opinion for an Alpha build. I've played plenty of games where the AI cannot even manage a continuous front line and makes regular suicidal attacks while the world around it is crumbling.


During the prequel to Case Blue and the subsequent operation the axis formations initialy destroyed their opponents with superior reactions flexibility and mobility. The thrusts themselves encountered little resistance until later. Once determined resistance was encountered the logistic and replacement situation started to buckle. I don't think anyone in the world would have deployed differently than Stalin in 42 after the 41 he had and given that the original plan for case Blue envisasged a thrust to Moscow once the Volga was reached was undoubtably the correct deployment without the benefit of hindsight that the German Army was now incapble of such an operation.

With respect the to AI I agree with your assesment but what I'm refering to is the players relation to the enviroment

(in reply to The SNAFU)
Post #: 828
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/28/2010 10:41:04 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Big Anorak "I am playing my fifth 1941 campaign..." 

And is it still as much fun?

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Post #: 829
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 12:34:34 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Stuart, I tested the 41 game nearly 20 times, and now the 42 game some 8 times. Yep it's that fun...

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AWD Beta tester
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Post #: 830
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 6:50:18 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Big Anorak "I am playing my fifth 1941 campaign..." 

And is it still as much fun?


right off the bat, I think you see every one of the testers is raving about the game, most are in here, trying to tell you all they can, and answer any questions you all have, so I think that kind of shows you what the testers think of the game, if we didn't "like" it, or think it was good/fun, we wouldn't bother

just from my posts, which is not a true AAR, you can see how many times I have gotten a restart and then drive into the game

the game gets it's hooks into you, it puts them deep

so, yea, it is still that much fun, and remember, we thought that way, before we had a nice map, units, and such, were most of the stuff we are showing off, we had to do in our heads

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Post #: 831
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 12:40:59 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		I do find it a bit ironic in a way that the PO is making the mistakes I said it would probably make earlier on, but then it was said that it was very difficult to bait the PO into defending non-crucial areas, even though in Jon's AAR the PO has been doing just that.

The debate about comparing Jon's plan/campaign to the actual 1942 summer/autumn campaign ignores one crucial part: the front was more or less static in the "real" campaign after the mess left by the Soviet winter/spring offensives was cleared up. In Jon's AAR, there are hardly any static units, yet he still has 50% of the trucks he needs. As there doesn't seem to be levels of activity for static units, that should mean all units get supplies as if they're participating in an operation. Naturally, the supplies required by the units being fairly idle is a lot less than those actually fighting, but those units would still be supplied as if there was a good chance they would soon be fighting.

The "real" campaign was concentrated in roughly the same area, even though that area was huge. Although causing a serious strain on the railroads, that does make logistics easier to distribute. Jon is, however, attacking all over the map, even though he has less than half the transport he needs.

If mobility is possible with half the trucks, situations the magic move the Germans sort of get in the first turn of the 1941 campaign (judging by the 1941 AAR and comments, they will more or less automatically gain more ground than they did historically) and the generally quick pace of advance would mean that an adequate defense will be very difficult to create for Soviet players. Naturally, it would also mean that the Soviets are likely to gain more ground when they're on the offensive, but if the WitP:AE forums are an indication, people will complain about how everything's biased in favour of the Axis without realizing that when the Allies are on the offensive the same rules still apply.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/29/2010 12:41:07 PM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 832
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 4:28:50 PM   
wurger54

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Stuart, I tested the 41 game nearly 20 times, and now the 42 game some 8 times. Yep it's that fun...


Have the human players in the test games against the AI been balanced between German and Soviet?

It looks like the AI is well developed. The previous Barbarossa AAR had the AI set at difficult and it won the war in '41... not bad. In the current '42 AAR it looks like a pretty good game with the Germans doing well, but still a very long way from what I would guess the victory conditions are for winning. Certainly the AI is a far cry from War in Russia.

Also the system seems to be flexible and fun, keeping the players interest for the long term. Being the Ostgrognard that I am, I'm definately buying this product.



Being strictly a PBEMer, I'm also interested in play balance. Historically given the German underestimation of just about everything, Soviet will, Soviet production capacity, Soviet numbers, Soviet resliance, logistic difficulties, I think a German victory in the east was not really possible, but that's no fun. So how is the play balance between two human players of equal skill?

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 833
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 5:27:04 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The area from Leningrad to Vyshny Volocheck (about 300 miles of winding front line) is static (2 large German armies). He also has an army static around Rostov (100 miles of front) and several Corps in the Kuban that are static. Jon has no saved up admin points so he is limited in the command changes/micro management he can do each turn (unless he makes more of the front static). As for vehicles, it is tests like this that give Gary info to tweak his supply system to make sure it is doing what he expects it to be doing in appropriately limiting operations where it should. It's ongoing work. As for AFV's, Jon has about 2400 operational German AFV's at the moment (about 1300 in 20 Panzer Divisions and about 600 in 13 Motorized Divisions and 500 in independent, mostly stug, battalions).


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Post #: 834
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 6:53:40 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Good to hear tweaks are on going. Has any consideration been given to increasing the rate of replacements and prioritizing units that will refit by withdrawing them to the west?

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 5/29/2010 6:54:10 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 835
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 7:03:28 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger
Flavius: I can sense that this is a matter of some concern for you - I feel pretty passionate about this game too, and want it to be excellent.   I do want you to think a bit longer about the way you post here, as you have obviously thought hard and long about what it is you want to say.   In the last two posts - the one above and the one in the AAR - I/we have had direct instructions from you about what to think and do ("don't even try to defend it" and "look at the AAR for what it really is: a stress test of the programmed opponent").   Argue for all your worth but please don't try and impose those arguments on me.   



Standing by my words exactly as they are written, sorry. You're free to disagree with them, of course.

I really don't see how we can properly evaluate the logistical mechanics/balance of the game when there is a major disparity in ability between the opponents. The 1942 AAR is thus a good vehicle so far to test the AI, but hasn't really told us anything dispositive about the logistics in a truly competitive environment.

Ultimately I don't believe that we will ever be able to bring the AI up to the ability of a first class human player, and am therefore increasingly impatient to move testing beyond that and to get the playtesters set against each other. We've just about exhausted the possibilities of AI improvement. If we really want to get into the nuts and bolts of the logistical game and determine if the game's tempo is too fast, then we've got to set up a different gaming experiment.

If I seem a bit testy and impatient, it's because of this.







< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 5/29/2010 7:17:45 PM >

(in reply to SGHunt)
Post #: 836
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 7:27:57 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Query: can the game be set up for AI versus AI play? That too would be a good way to test the logistical engine on a basis of equal player skill. Although this is a second best option compared to human versus human. But it would be easier to do this, at least, and could generate some data fairly quickly for the devs to evaluate.



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Post #: 837
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 7:37:10 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Leo has been our AI vs AI guy, and yes we thunk of that. He's our test, tests guy...

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Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 838
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 7:54:23 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Query: can the game be set up for AI versus AI play? That too would be a good way to test the logistical engine on a basis of equal player skill. Although this is a second best option compared to human versus human. But it would be easier to do this, at least, and could generate some data fairly quickly for the devs to evaluate.


Yep... the AI vs. AI works!


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 839
RE: War in the East Q&A - 5/29/2010 8:26:06 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		yeap, and the AI even wins once in a while




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