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Shock Attack Ichang - 9/13/2009 4:22:47 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		Is there a reason why divisions always shock attack at Ichang when I send them in to help defend it?

- Playing as Japan
- I got 1 Div and a Rgt already there since the beginning of the game
- I can send smaller units like regular Rgts or RGC Divs and Rgts in and out without trouble
- As soon as I send a regular Div in they shock attack and get crushed by the Chinese that have some 200'000 troops trying to get Ichang since Dec. 7th 41
- I send them always in combat mode
- From a friendly hex side to a friendly hex side

I know there's a river but they should not shock since it's my base and my hex sides. Why does it work with smaller units?
So what am I missing?

Post #: 1
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/13/2009 4:55:29 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Are they crossing a river?  A river crossing forces a shock attack....or did in WITP.

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 2
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/13/2009 6:13:54 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		Well as far as I know it should not when, like I mentioned, the hex sides belong to me and the units are im combat mode, right?

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 3
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/13/2009 6:51:36 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		Going of memory here, but I think you need enough AV value in the hex already (compared to the enemies AV) or else you will get a shock attack. Still doesn't explain why you're getting shock attacks, I'd think controlling the hex would stop them. If it doesn't, then you've still got the issue of smaller units not having to shock attack. That can be rationalized though, small units can take up a position in the already established bridgehead, but large units would need to expand it so that it isn't overcrowded. Maybe that's also coded in somehow.

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 4
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/13/2009 7:11:42 PM   
medicff

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 9/11/2004
From: WPB, Florida
Status: offline 		Yes, a "some" units will shock attack when crossing a river hexside. You also get increase disruption from crossing a river hexside.


(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 5
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 2:54:04 AM   
Djordje

 

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline 		The way I understand it, when both sides are in the hex nobody really controls it. If your units are crossing the river and your attack value / enemy attack value ratio is not high enough units will initiate shock attack. Looking at Ichang you will see that it has two rivers, so both sides when enter it usually initiate shock attacks. That alone might be the reason why Japan should not retreat from it at start.

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.

(in reply to medicff)
Post #: 6
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 7:21:21 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		speaking of WITP, it did not matter how many av you had in the hex, if it was a hex where you own a base you could move in as many units without shock attacking as you wished. May have overlooked it in the AE manual, but haven´t read about this being changed. Either it was changed or it´s a bug.

_____________________________


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Post #: 7
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 9:28:43 AM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.


Are you sure about this?
I see Japanese units in China happily retreating into my back areas although the hexside they retreat through is clearly marked as mine (green on both sides).
I have to put a unit in a hex to block the enemy from retreating to it.

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to Djordje)
Post #: 8
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 9:53:51 AM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.


Are you sure about this?
I see Japanese units in China happily retreating into my back areas although the hexside they retreat through is clearly marked as mine (green on both sides).
I have to put a unit in a hex to block the enemy from retreating to it.


That's not what the green hexsides mean, they mean the hexside can be crossed by land movement. AFAIK there is no way to display who owns a hexside.

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 9
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 11:22:15 AM   
Djordje

 

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.


Are you sure about this?
I see Japanese units in China happily retreating into my back areas although the hexside they retreat through is clearly marked as mine (green on both sides).
I have to put a unit in a hex to block the enemy from retreating to it.


Like Smeulders already said, green does not mean it belongs to allies, it means any side can cross it by land and enter hex from that side. I mean, there are green lines in Home Islands at the start of the game, and some red ones everywhere deep in allied territory...

green - land units can move
blue - naval units can move
white - coastal hex, both naval and land units can move
red - nothing can move
purple - river crossing - the joy of shock attack

Ichang is purple from east, west and southwest.

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 10
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 11:55:19 AM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje


quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.


Are you sure about this?
I see Japanese units in China happily retreating into my back areas although the hexside they retreat through is clearly marked as mine (green on both sides).
I have to put a unit in a hex to block the enemy from retreating to it.


Like Smeulders already said, green does not mean it belongs to allies, it means any side can cross it by land and enter hex from that side. I mean, there are green lines in Home Islands at the start of the game, and some red ones everywhere deep in allied territory...

green - land units can move
blue - naval units can move
white - coastal hex, both naval and land units can move
red - nothing can move
purple - river crossing - the joy of shock attack

Ichang is purple from east, west and southwest.



Well I think that's not 100% true. Because I can see a hex side changing it's color from red to green when my unit crosses it and vice versa if an enemy enters one of my hexes.

I do understand it like this:

Example: I encircled enemy units sending units around an enemy held hex. Then I sent all units from the outer hexes to the enemy hex in the middle, closing all escape routes for him. You can watch the hex sides go from red to green when you pass them. It's the exact opposite for your enemy when you do this. For him they go from green to red in this situation.

Why is this? Well you were correct on the colors. Green means "open" and red means "blocked". This is the same for both sides. No matter if you play Japan or the Allies. But blocked does not mean "hex impassable for everyone". Because if an enemy enters your hex from one of the 6 possible directions, this hex side will go from green to red. Which means you cannot leave the hex through this side as long as the enemy is in this hex, because HE entered from this side and is still there, blocking your way. You can only leave the hex through the other 5 sides (if land hex). If you kick him out of the hex then all 6 hex sides become green again.



< Message edited by TheTomDude -- 9/14/2009 11:59:49 AM >

(in reply to Djordje)
Post #: 11
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 12:48:26 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Problem here seems to be that one needs certain amount of AV in hex to prevent river crossing Shock Attack (called forming a bridgehead). I don't know what that ratio is, though. And "w"-key shows hex/side ownership (aka retreat paths open/closed). Devs had some posts about this before release, but I have no time to try to search the topics...

Manual p. 190:

Moving across a River hex side will also cause the crossing unit to initiate a shock attack unless the moving side has a presence of friendly units that are already in the hex that meet a threshold of strength when compared to the non-moving side.



< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 9/14/2009 12:54:33 PM >

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 12
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 12:49:35 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		Can you give screenshots of that ? I've put hexside details on, but even hexsides between two hexes, both with enemy LCUs and none of my units present, show as green.

Edit : So this is why I always put disclaimers such as 'AFAIK' in my posts. I hadn't heard about the toggle Sardauker just mentioned, sorry for creating the confusion.

< Message edited by Smeulders -- 9/14/2009 12:54:42 PM >

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 13
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 12:55:54 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Hotkey "w" - displays hexside ownership - Red: Japanese, Green: Allied

--------

River Shock Attacks

If you cross a River hexside that you do not control you should always shock attack.

If you enter an enemy occupied hex across a River hexside that you control (ie you control both sides of the river)- your MODIFIED AV must be of a particular ratio to the enemy's MODIFIED AV to prevent the Shock Attack.

Net result - poor quality troops have issues maintaining a proper bridgehead because their MODIFIED AV is a lot lower than their RAW AV.

--------
ZOC

You may only LEAVE a hex across a hexside you control. So if you enter an enemy's hex across all six hexsides the enemy is trapped in the hex.

< Message edited by treespider -- 9/14/2009 12:57:39 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 14
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 1:00:24 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Can you give screenshots of that ? I've put hexside details on, but even hexsides between two hexes, both with enemy LCUs and none of my units present, show as green.

Edit : So this is why I always put disclaimers such as 'AFAIK' in my posts. I hadn't heard about the toggle Sardauker just mentioned, sorry for creating the confusion.



Hot Key - "w"

Note Ichang - The NW, W, SW hexsides are Allied controlled. The Japanese cannot leave the hex across any of these hexsides. The NE, E, SE hexsides are Japanese controlled - The allies cannot leave the hex across those hexsides.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 15
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 1:05:29 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		Yup, I know how the hexside control works, just didn't know there was a way to see who controlled which one.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 16
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 1:57:25 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Hotkey "w" - displays hexside ownership - Red: Japanese, Green: Allied

--------

River Shock Attacks

If you cross a River hexside that you do not control you should always shock attack.

If you enter an enemy occupied hex across a River hexside that you control (ie you control both sides of the river)- your MODIFIED AV must be of a particular ratio to the enemy's MODIFIED AV to prevent the Shock Attack.

Net result - poor quality troops have issues maintaining a proper bridgehead because their MODIFIED AV is a lot lower than their RAW AV.

--------
ZOC

You may only LEAVE a hex across a hexside you control. So if you enter an enemy's hex across all six hexsides the enemy is trapped in the hex.



Thanks for the clarification Tree.
Is there a ratio one can work with? e.g. > 3:1 = shock attack?

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 17
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 4:40:47 PM   
BigJ62


Posts: 1800
Joined: 12/28/2002
From: Alpharetta, Georgia
Status: offline 		1/3rd and early in game Chinese have horrible modified av.

_____________________________

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AeAi…AeAi …AeAi…Long live AeAi.

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 18
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 5:30:43 PM   
Jonathan Pollard


Posts: 584
Joined: 2/25/2007
From: Federal prison
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

1/3rd and early in game Chinese have horrible modified av.

Is this an undocumented "feature" that gives an extra penalty to Chinese units similar to the way that WITP gave an extra bonus to Zero fighters early in the game? If so, is there a way to know exactly when the "early in game" period stops?

< Message edited by Jonathan Pollard -- 9/14/2009 5:32:53 PM >

_____________________________



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Post #: 19
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 7:17:05 PM   
Djordje

 

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje


quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Djordje

Not really related to the topic, but one thing I know is that when unit enters the hex side from which it came is marked as yours. This will prevent enemy units from retreating into your territory.


Are you sure about this?
I see Japanese units in China happily retreating into my back areas although the hexside they retreat through is clearly marked as mine (green on both sides).
I have to put a unit in a hex to block the enemy from retreating to it.


Like Smeulders already said, green does not mean it belongs to allies, it means any side can cross it by land and enter hex from that side. I mean, there are green lines in Home Islands at the start of the game, and some red ones everywhere deep in allied territory...

green - land units can move
blue - naval units can move
white - coastal hex, both naval and land units can move
red - nothing can move
purple - river crossing - the joy of shock attack

Ichang is purple from east, west and southwest.



Well I think that's not 100% true. Because I can see a hex side changing it's color from red to green when my unit crosses it and vice versa if an enemy enters one of my hexes.

I do understand it like this:

Example: I encircled enemy units sending units around an enemy held hex. Then I sent all units from the outer hexes to the enemy hex in the middle, closing all escape routes for him. You can watch the hex sides go from red to green when you pass them. It's the exact opposite for your enemy when you do this. For him they go from green to red in this situation.

Why is this? Well you were correct on the colors. Green means "open" and red means "blocked". This is the same for both sides. No matter if you play Japan or the Allies. But blocked does not mean "hex impassable for everyone". Because if an enemy enters your hex from one of the 6 possible directions, this hex side will go from green to red. Which means you cannot leave the hex through this side as long as the enemy is in this hex, because HE entered from this side and is still there, blocking your way. You can only leave the hex through the other 5 sides (if land hex). If you kick him out of the hex then all 6 hex sides become green again.




I was referring to hexside details colors, while others had in mind "W" hotkey and controlled hexes. Misunderstanding

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 20
RE: Shock Attack Ichang - 9/14/2009 7:54:20 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

1/3rd and early in game Chinese have horrible modified av.

Is this an undocumented "feature" that gives an extra penalty to Chinese units similar to the way that WITP gave an extra bonus to Zero fighters early in the game? If so, is there a way to know exactly when the "early in game" period stops?



Its not undocumented...it ends when their experience levels or leadership or morale rise...if ever....and it doesn't just apply to the Chinese.

It applies to every unit that has poor EXP, Leadership, and morale and whatever else applies to modify a units AV.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Jonathan Pollard)
Post #: 21
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