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German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 8:19:19 PM

sven6345789

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Back in the old game, i always tried to streamline the german production to get the most out of it. This thread is an invitation to discuss the different strategies players have come up with.

My two cents (1943 campaign)
First of all, i would split it in different parts

a) the Bf 109 part
b) the Fw 190 part
c) the nightfighter part
d) the Zerst�rer (Destroyer) part
e) the rest not fitting in

a) Bf 109
should be streamlined, producing a few types in maximum numbers possible. might not be the best type of plane around (a little outdated by 1943/44), but by the time of the game, you are stuck with it. possible types would be the G6 and G14 at start, followed by the G10 later. the Bf 109 H could be produced in small numbers as a high altitude interceptor (had problems with wing flutter historically). When the Bf 109K becomes available, shift to that.

b)Fw190
In the beginning, Fw190A is the mainstay. in addition, small numbers of the F variant should be kept in production. later, shift to D and finally to the Ta 152.

c) Nightfighters
Ju88 is probably the most promising (first C, later G) in combination with the He 219. Ta 154 can be taken into consideration. Bf 110 and Do 217 should be shifted to the other types, thus concentrating on a few types.

d) Destroyers
only interesting as long as the P-51 is not around. production can be concentrated on Me 410, but it probably is not worth the effort (engines?). Me 410 is not such a big step forward from Bf 110. in 1944, the whole production should be shifted to Jetfighters, since the Me 262 will replace the destroyer units in hunting bombers. He 162 and the Ta 183 might come to late to have a major impact. some production might be shifted to Fw 190 F.

e) the rest (R&D, small series, prototypes)
The Luftwaffe has a lot of research going on. Since the number of types possibly available has changed compared to the old game, and i haven't thoroughly looked at the types yet, i cannot really say which are promissing and which are not. Some of the Bf 109 production might land here in late war ( for Do 335 for example). Me 163 is probably useless. Need to take a closer look at the R&D before i can flesh this part out.

I left several points out like engines, which might limit the options you have, the allies (italians etc.), and, of course, the allied bombing campaign, which will limit the options you have later in the war as your production centers are turned into scrap metal.

comments are welcome; hoping for some interesting ideas others have come up with.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 8:37:30 PM

Hard Sarge

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it is going to be a little more tricky then you may think

and it is kind of odd, you may want to go with only one model, but things like the G-5, and the G-5/AS are great for dogfighting, the LW weakness is always going to be something for High Alt, the H-2 is very good for high alt, but going to be tricky to build, not as easy to build up stocks of parts for it, the G-14 and G-10 are late war models (old game had them coming in way too early)

the FW has some good models, but if you want to go with the Sturm model, you got to build it different then the standard fighter

the 410 may not be any good, but most times, those are normally the units with the most kills when the game ends

the two 152s and the 335 are monsters

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 8:38:30 PM

Fallschirmjager

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I try to produce planes that are versatile. One of the reasons I continue to produce ME-109 G6s well into 1944 is that they have the option to have extra cannons added to make them into effective anti bomber planes.
Thus you can easily switch them in and out of roles on a daily basis if you like.
If a plan has no options for extra cannons or MGs and is locked into one role then I usually disfavor it over a plan whom I can switch around to better serve my needs.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 8:43:51 PM

wernerpruckner

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One of the things with the Matrix Edition of BtR is that the production is much more fun.
You have several new types to work with, new upgrade paths and new "R�sts�tze" (field conversions)

If you stay more or less historical or let the AI handle production you will get a huge number of conventional A/C that were used historically.
You may not need these huge numbers (or you may ........the game can get extremly bloody in late 44), and so you can
concentrate on alternative types.....which may or may not be bottlenecked in one or another way

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 9:58:30 PM

Nemo121

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Well, I had a look at the various units in-game and it seems that quite a few foreign air forces are locked into, at best, the Bf-109Ga6.

Interestingly the Re-2005 is a great plane for the Italians but there is only capacity to produce about 5. The Macchi 205 is OK but there is a huge mismatch between assembly and parts/engines produced.

In the end I ended up producing abot 55 Bf-109s ( 9 x G5s, 40 or so G6s and 6 Ga6s), about 50 FW-190s, 5 x Re-2005s, switching production until I could make abotu a dozen He-219, stopping production of the night fighter variants of the 109 and 190.

In addition I ended up keeping the 2 x Me210s and about 8 Me-410s in production as well as a couple of Ju-88Gs.

All production of other types was stopped.

In the longer run I'm looking to switch 109 production from G6s to G10s and then K4s and K6s while 190 production goes to the A8 ( plus sub-variants ) and then the Ta152. Zerstorer and 190F production will be switched to jets as soon as they come online with whatever portion of 190 production is possible once the anti-fighter 190s and Ta-152s are excluded.

Looking into it so far it looks like the 262 is the best initial jet, the He162 and 163 are utter wastes and the late-war jets to go for will be the Ta-183 (which later became the Pulqui ) and the Go-229 which has what appears to be a lethal combination of range, firepower, speed, manoeuvrability and durability. All of the other jet fighters are good but have limited range. The Go-229 has the range and speed to concentrate at any point over Germany from widely disparate areas and achieve really lethal concentrations of force. I think that might be decisive.

In the meantime though I've outfitted my 109s as pure fighters and have switched all my 190s to carry extra cannon and rockets. So far it seems the 109s can pretty much hold their own in the air while the 190s do a great job on enemy bombers. In 4 days I've destroyed over 200 B-17s although I'm sure that's only a drop in the ocean of what the Allies have in their pools.

I do have a couple of problems though:
1. I'm not sure just how effective the research is...

2. I'm not sure just how to judge the effectiveness of the various night-fighters the Germans have. Should I keep a mix of types in order to ensure I have multiple different radars in the air at the same time so no one jamming mechanism can jam them all or am I better just going for the He-219 and concentrating on that?

3. Is there any way to upgrade the planes of Allies ( Hungarian and Italians ) which seem to be stuck at nothing better than the 109-Ga6, at best?

Also is there any hint as to what sort of loss rate is too much for my pilot replacements to keep up with?

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 9/27/2009 10:07:43 PM >

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 10:07:55 PM

wernerpruckner

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I wouldn�t stop the production of the Wilde Sau types yet.
Or better said, it depends on what you want to do with them.

They can score a nice number of kills in 43, and some of them will upgrade in spring 44 and the others in autumn 44 to dayfighters ( only as autoupgrade as soon as the right ones are in the pool)
Or do you want to strenghten the NF forces and upgrade them to twin engine NFs.

Research is still effectiv -- it always depends on your enemy and your own safe level

NFs: some will say one type others the mix out off all....I made nice kills with Ju88, Do217, He219 and the Ta154....only after them the Bf110....but those also get some nice toys later in the war

Co Axis units can upgrade to a great number of types....but you need them in the pool for an upgrade.
German school units (and some co Axis ) units have a restricted amount of upgrades.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/27/2009 10:25:01 PM

Nemo121

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I'm finding a lot of Allied Axis units have, at best, the ability to upgrade to the 109-Ga6... Do they gain further upgrade options as the game goes on? As it is I'm not impressed with their chance of accomplishing anything in 1944 if that's where their upgrade path stops.

Wilde Sau: Well, to be honest I'd rather begin producing twin-engined fighters which will have utility into 1943 than continuing to produce what looks like a dead-end design. I'm just not sure which are best. It looks like the He-219s are good early on but with a few Ju-88C6s and Gs thrown in for good measure with, in the end, the Ju-88s at least upgrading to the Ju-388 - which looks like a damned nice plane.

I didn't pay much attention to the Ta-154 though. maybe I should have?

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 3:05:15 PM

sven6345789

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got aquestion. when changing production from BF 106G-5 to G-14, there is a 10 day delay for a 1 Factory. same for changing parts to late parts. probably the same for engines. does this mean i can start producing a small number of G-14 in 1943? if i continue changing, i could fly with a modern type early. no R&D. How do i know which types have been developed and which still need to be developed?

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 3:27:26 PM

Hard Sarge

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for the Co-Axis, and Training planes, you got a date delay, and you also need so many planes to be in stock, before they can break out of there upgrade path

the Ga-6 will upgrade to German fighters later in the war, mainly, this is to force the AI to not use up all of the 109s

for the G-10, you can build it, but if it is not ready for production, then you are doing reseach, trying to move the start date forward

for every 100 complete planes built, you will advance the start date by a month (only you don't get the plane you are building)

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 3:53:42 PM

sven6345789

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could we get a list with the star dates? or is there one and i haven't found it yet

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 3:57:59 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi Sven,

5 Bf 109G-2
6 Bf 109G-5
7 Bf 109G-5/AS ..... 1/44 High
8 Bf 109G-6
9 Bf 109G-6/R6
11 Bf 109G-10 ..... 11/44
12 Bf 109G-10/R6
13 Bf 109G-14 ..... 7/44
14 Bf 109G-14/R6
15 Bf 109H-2 ..... 6/44 very good high
16 Bf 109K-4 ..... 9/44
17 Bf 109K-6
18 Bf 109T-2
20 Bf 109Z-3 ..... 4/45 High good
30 Do 335A-0 ..... 9/44
31 Do 335A ..... 2/45
32 Do 335B ..... 2/45
33 Do 335A-6 ..... 3/45
36 Fw 190A-5
38 Fw 190A-6
39 Fw 190A-6/R1
40 Fw 190A-8 ..... 1/44
41 Fw 190A-8/R1
42 Fw 190A-8/R7
43 Fw 190A-8/R8
46 Fw 190D-9 ..... 9/44 high
52 G.55/I Centauro
53 G.56 Centauro II .....1/45
62 Ju 88C-6a
64 MC.200 Saetta
65 MC.202 Folgore
66 MC.205 Veltro
71 Dar-11 Ljastuvka
72 Avia B.534
73 G.50bis Freccia
74 D.520
75 He 112B-2
76 IAR 81M
77 MS 406
78 Bf 109Ga-2 ..... 9/43
79 Bf 109Ga-6 ..... 11/43
81 Fw 190F
84 Fw 190G
89 Re.2001 Falco II
90 Re.2002 Ariete
91 Re.2005 Sagittario
94 RO 57bis
96 SAI.207
109 Ta 152C .....1/45 High
110 Ta 152H .....12/44 very good High
121 Bf 110G-2
122 Bf 110G-2/R3
123 Me 210Ca-1
124 Me 410A-1
125 Me 410A-1/U2
126 Me 410B-2/R3 .....4/44
127 Me 410B-2/R5
128 Me 410B-2/U2
129 Me 410B-2/U4
131 Bf 109G-6/U4N
133 Fw 190A-5/U2
145 Bf 110G-4
146 Bf 110G-4/M1
148 Bf 110G-4/R7 .....1/44
149 Bf 110G-4/R8
152 CV F.5
153 Do 217J-2
154 Do 217N-2
158 He 219A-0/R2
159 He 219A-2/R1 .....12/43
160 He 219A-5/R4 .....4/44
164 Ju 88C-6
166 Ju 88G .....6/44
168 Ju 388 .....3/44
169 Me 262B .....12/44
170 Re.2001CN
173 Ta 154 .....7/44
176 He 162A .....1/45
177 Me 163B .....5/44
178 Me 262A .....9/44
179 Me 262A-1a/U4
180 Me 262A-0 .....3/44
182 Ta 183 .....10/45
183 Go 229 .....9/45
184 BV 155 .....2/45 Very good High

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 7:30:33 PM

MajorDude

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Is there a printed/printable document anywhere, like a spreadsheet or other, that lists all this with details in a single document form?

For example:

7 Bf 109G-5/AS ..... 1/44 High and all the other info such as armour, gun value, etc.

I have not received the boxed set yet so I don't know if there is anything like that included in the material.

A colour combined version of this with the pictures of the planes as seen in the game would be a really nice addition.

A large colour printed map with names of airfields, etc. in addition to Luftflotte and Air Arm boundaries as the war/scenario advances would also be a really nice game aid to have.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 8:05:06 PM

Nemo121

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Hmm, when the game starts I have 13 assembly lines producing things like the Do335, late series BFs and FWs and another 8 lines producing Bf110s ( aka coffins ).

It strikes me that if I put those 21 assembly lines to work researching, for example, the Me-262 then I could move that plane's entry date back from September 1944 by 1 month every 5 days ( 20 assembly lines x 5 = 100 research points every 5 days ). That would mean I'd get the Me-262 into production sometime in mid-October 1943.

Is there some other hidden bit of code preventing production before a certain date or is this possible?

Hell, the Go-229 ( which looks pretty awesome ) is just 24 months away. It might well be worth investing 21 assembly lines into researching it in order to bring it into service in February 1944. I think that would change the complexion of the air war totally.

Am I missing something?

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/28/2009 8:10:39 PM

wernerpruckner

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with no change in the production it will come at the historical date,
you need to invest into R&D...in the old BTR you need 100 R&D theoretical planes to move it one month in the right direction

An other thing....the DO335 has two engines => 1x CFAC+2xEFAC+1xAFAC => one Do335
and maybe there are additional bottlenecks......

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 3:38:11 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Hmm, when the game starts I have 13 assembly lines producing things like the Do335,� late series BFs and FWs and another 8 lines producing Bf110s ( aka coffins ).

It strikes me that if I put those 21 assembly lines to work researching, for example, the Me-262 then I could move that plane's entry date back from September 1944 by 1 month every 5 days ( 20 assembly lines x 5 = 100 research points every 5 days ). That would mean I'd get the Me-262 into production sometime in mid-October 1943.

Is there some other hidden bit of code preventing production before a certain date or is this possible?

Hell, the Go-229 ( which looks pretty awesome ) is just 24 months away. It might well be worth investing 21 assembly lines into researching it in order to bring it into service in February 1944. I think that would change the complexion of the air war totally.

Am I missing something?

Remember that you also have to produce the specified parts and engines for the Me-262 and not just the airframe assembly. In other words if you do convert those 21 assembly plants, you also need to convert the requisite parts and engine production. Plus there is also the retooling time to be added.

Assuming that the Me-262 still requires 4 jet engines (as per the original BTR), that will be quite a major production impediment.

Alfred

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 9:25:48 AM

Speedysteve

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As swift hints at there are some other factors in production that limit the amount that can be produced...call them hidden bottlenecks if you will

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 12:56:24 PM

Hard Sarge

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also, I think if you do some more checking, that those 21 lines, are not building anything, unless I miss my guess, those are Factories that are not online yet, when they do come online, they will already have planned production set for them

late in the War, there is a Massive underground factory that will come online, but it may be too late to be of much use(I think that is where you are seeing all of the 262/335 being planned)

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 2:50:40 PM

Nemo121

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And what might those "hidden" factors be?

Sure to produce a jet fighter you need 4 jet engines and to produce a Do335 you need two engines.

I presume that if he is sticking with the 100 planes R&Ded moves production up by 1 month then he also is using the WiTP rule that you cannot begin researching a plane more than 12 months prior to its introduction.

So, are there any other hidden bottlenecks? C'mon, its hardly adult to have a secret boy's club which knows the hidden bottlenecks but won't tell us mere newcomers

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 2:53:00 PM

Nemo121

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Ok, so to be clear... If I want to switch the Bf-110s over to Me-262 research I will need to switch over the 8 x Bf110 parts, 8 x Bf-110 assembly PLUS switch over 32 engines to Junkers Jumo Jets? It isn't enough to change assembly, I have to change the necessary number of parts and engines also?

Can anyone shed any light on how production increases are handled? What determines if a Level 1 factory moves to Level 2?

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 3:21:06 PM

wernerpruckner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Ok, so to be clear... If I want to switch the Bf-110s over to Me-262 research I will need to switch over the 8 x Bf110 parts, 8 x Bf-110 assembly PLUS switch over 32 engines to Junkers Jumo Jets? It isn't enough to change assembly, I have to change the necessary number of parts and engines also?

hehehe
yes, you need the right number of everything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Can anyone shed any light on how production increases are handled? What determines if a Level 1 factory moves to Level 2?

in two ways:
At a certain time you have a total production of xyz.....lets say 32 in 8x3pointers.....now one factory gets bombed and wents offline (becomes a FAC )- now the Germans will move there tools to an alternate site -either an existing one or a new one until the total number is reached.

Or the total industry output rises......

(this is as I remember it from the old game)

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 3:23:55 PM

wernerpruckner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

And what might those "hidden" factors be?

Sure to produce a jet fighter you need 4 jet engines and to produce a Do335 you need two engines.

I presume that if he is sticking with the 100 planes R&Ded moves production up by 1 month then he also is using the WiTP rule that you cannot begin researching a plane more than 12 months prior to its introduction.

So, are there any other hidden bottlenecks? C'mon, its hardly adult to have a secret boy's club which knows the hidden bottlenecks but won't tell us mere newcomers

bottlenecks my be various things build in the game - maybe you need more parts or more assembly lines, maybe you need an ARM factory for a certain weapon or radar set........or glue (in RL the Moskito (Ta154) production was stopped because of glue)

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 3:54:13 PM

Nemo121

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Swift, thanks. So there's assembly, engines and avionics for all planes PLUS ( special factors for certain planes, the glue of the Ta-154, radar sets for various night fighters, various alloys for various jet engines etc ).

Ok, makes sense actually. Its just a bit of a B**CH to have to guess what the hidden bottlenecks might be. At least in real life you'd know that if you're cancelling the Ju-88 night fighter and making He-219s that you should switch radar production from the Ju88 radar to He219 radar.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 4:00:33 PM

wernerpruckner

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Not really.....look at the real war German figher/night fighter production.....

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 4:01:11 PM

Speedysteve

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Thats right Nemo.....

As for not knowing what they are....sounds like RL to me.....you think the various Axis commands, factions, firms all talked to each other at all times?

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 4:24:25 PM

Hard Sarge

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you guys are scaring me

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 4:36:57 PM

Speedysteve

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I'm always scared of you HS

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 5:02:42 PM

Hard Sarge

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you guys are as bad as "he who shall not be named"

Smoke and mirrors

everything is Smoke and mirrors

which if you look like me, the more smoke between you and the mirror the better

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/29/2009 11:52:13 PM

harley

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I'd agree with HS, except the smoke needs to be 3 or 4 pages long.

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/30/2009 6:30:35 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Swift, thanks. So there's assembly, engines and avionics for all planes PLUS ( special factors for certain planes, the glue of the Ta-154, radar sets for various night fighters, various alloys for various jet engines etc ).

Ok, makes sense actually. Its just a bit of a B**CH to have to guess what the hidden bottlenecks might be. At least in real life you'd know that if you're cancelling the Ju-88 night fighter and making He-219s that you should switch radar production from the Ju88 radar to He219 radar.

In the old BTR (and presumably remains in the current iteration) there was also one significant hidden bottleneck. Transport delays.

It was claimed, but to the best of my knowledge not supported by any hard data, that the more damage inflicted upon railyards, the greater was the delay in transporting production from adjacent factories to the pools. What was the exact quantum correlation between damage and delay was never disclosed. Nor how far from the damaged railyard would the delay impact. To compound this FOW, is the fact that you never actually know exactly what you have in the pools.

So to build plane models (both current and R+D), you need to produce the requisite "assembly", parts and engines - then transport them to the pools - then all three components are extracted and transported back from the pools to the aircraft assembly factory. Damage to railyards can therefore derail (pun intended) your production estimates.

Alfred

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RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/30/2009 10:31:22 AM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

you guys are as bad as "he who shall not be named"

Smoke and mirrors

everything is Smoke and mirrors

which if you look like me, the more smoke between you and the mirror the better

LOL. Don't know what you mean