Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 9/30/2009 7:19:48 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		where smoke....there fire.....

_____________________________


(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 31
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/1/2009 11:34:28 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		Here are my suggestions.

Do calculations only for aircraft/parts/engines already online (or ready within a few days).  Ignore the unfinished factories.

You have 8 engines suitable for FW190D not used for anything.  I convert 10+ itallian, french, and rumaninan iarframes to FW190D.  I want 8 on line at all times for research.  (switch parts as well).


You have plenty of DB605A.  Convert some of these to engines for Me262A and TA152.
Convert German airframes (Do217(3), ME210(1), Me110G4(3), FW190G(3), Me109Ga(1-2)) and safe allied [IAR(3), D.152 (1),] to these 2 types.

I try to get 8 190D, 8 TA-152, and 4 ME-262 into active research.  The factories not yet on map don't help. 

This should generate 240 points (maybe 2 month advance) per month for 190D & TA152 types after online and 120 points (maybe 1 month advance) per month on jets.

It looks like you are short on engines.  Its not that bad.  Non-discovered airframes don't need engines, and many of the DB501s used for 110 and 210 types can be diverted to other kinds of engines.



(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 32
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 9:56:02 AM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline 		Ok I am trying something different

As the scenario started I moved every avaible plane to france They engaged Allied fighters what ever the cost. At the same time every quality Unit goes in to Germany just to the end of Allied escort range.

For first 30 day I produced hordes of Me 109G6 with converting every ten day engine and assebly and part factory. some 1800 plane produced. Now radical it seems. I turn all Me 109 production to Ta 152C. keeping Fw 190 production intact. I only produce Me 410 He 219 Fw190 And researching Ta152C Go229 and JU388. This way I can minimise the use of Engine type. DB603A DB603L BMW802. This three engine is used all in my production and research Planes.

Now the plan is to sit tight and wait till the Ta152C production kicks in Until then ME 410 and FW190 will deal with Bombers. And I will Fight according to my Me 109 Reserve. And any low exprienced german or non-german unit will engaged with Allied fighters. Because If you engage to deeply in Dogfights Those exprienced pilots erode pretty fast.

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 33
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 11:52:09 AM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay
Non-discovered airframes don't need engines,


Maybe in the original version they didn't.



_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 34
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 12:20:37 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah it seems that in this version if you want to research Me-262s at a rate of 10 per day you need 10 x Me262 assembly and parts and FORTY Junkers Jumo Engines. Yikes.

It might still be worth it if you are really willing to just hunker down and keep the losses at a minimum for the first 3 months. 10 x Me-262 produced per day would yield 300 points per month = 900 points in 3 months which would move the Me-262 up from September 44 to January 44.

Personally I think that sounds like it would be worth it as you could dump all the Me-410s, Bf-110s, Me-210s etc and replace those Zerstorer units with much more effective and survivable Me-262s.

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 35
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 2:15:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Are you sure, your major killers are going to be the 110/410 units

and the 262 is not a uber weapon, it has it's faults

I would take a 335 over a 262 anyday

to be honest, I wouldn't kill off the 109 production, the 190 is not going to do much, up high

_____________________________


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 36
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 2:34:41 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline 		I couldnt personally test it yet but I think Overally best Fighter winner is Ta 152 C good speed, good range, good firepower. And engine is common in Do335, He219, Me410, so it is logical to produce large numbers. Shifting R&D when they became avaible.

Most of us and leaders of Germany were looking jets as wonder weapons. But they were not self sufficent yet. Without proper fighter they are useless. In my old games I discovered it dearly. Fw 190D is not enough. Without large scale production of a quality fighter it is difficult to contain mass effect of allies. My tactic will be supporting Me 410 with avaible figters then after producing enough Ta 152C changing production to Do335 and Go 229 so every time Front is getting nearer I could be able to use range advantage to stay as much as possible from sweeps.

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 37
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 4:03:22 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		What I'm asserting is that if a factory for an undiscovered plane that is not yet on the map (factory not built yet) should not need an engine if it is not doing research or building planes. If you are saying that it does (and I'll evenually figure it out if you don't tell us) is that I'll change all of the factories that are not yet built, and sucking up good engines/parts, into something I don't want unless you can tell us how to turn unwanted factories of.

If i convert 16 DB605 at to Junkers Jumo Jets and they go to the 4 non-existant factorys appearing on turn 400+ (are lost) rather than to 4 actual on map factorys I've converted on turn 10-20 that are operational (for research) we need to know that.

Real stuff (engines, parts, airframes) should be used to build real planes first, then go to research, and not be diverted to a factory that does not even exist.

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 38
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 4:24:25 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		one of the whole ideas is, you don't want to switch everything

there are reasons why the Germans needed to make so many different types, and you should build the different types

killing off the F and G is going to hurt you in the long run

killing off the Ga's is going to hurt you

I would also keep the IAR in production, it is not the same as the old Model in BTR (hell it was a good plane, don't know why they figured it was a piece of junk)

your 110s and 410s are worth there weight in gold in the early part of the game

the 217 I would kill off, I wouldn't be in a major hurry to kill off the G4's, some of the switches are pretty good, and are worthwhile while waiting for the "good" models to be ready

152, 406, yea, but I would switch them to Ga's

remember there are bottlenecks, with out being bottlenecks, trainers upgrade to trainers, Jabos upgrade to Jabos, you kill off everything, you not going to have anything to fly for a good part of your forces

you need to fight the war in 43, not 44 or 45

you can have a Airforce full of TA-183s, but what good is that, if the Russians own all of your Oil Fields

to be honest, in the long run, you are never going to have enough 109s, and when the 14/10/4 start becoming buildable, you are still going to need the G6, hopefully, each unit that changes over to a new model, will be able to hand over there old planes, and keep them in action, most times, it don't work that way

and for your last line, remember what I keep saying, saying from the old board, Smoke and mirrors



_____________________________


(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 39
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 4:45:29 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		As re: the Do335 vs the Me262... I think it is interesting to discuss why some prefer the Do-335 over the Me-262...
The Me262 is 80 miles faster ( 542 vs 462 ), has the same ceiling ( 37,000), slightly superior climb (4,000 vs 3,800), worse manoeuvrability ( 32 vs 36 ), worse durability ( 34 vs 37 ), stronger guns ( 20 vs 11 ) and a much inferior combat range ( 218 vs 700 miles )

So, I suppose it comes down to the following:
Is speed superior to manoeuvrability in fighter vs fighter combat?

Against bombers it seems the 262 is definitely superior ( much better firepower ).

Or am I missing something?

C'mon guys a bit of clarity... It is a tad frustrating to have to play a game where people are hinting " I know why x is a good idea and y isn't but I'm not going to tell you".

If I wanted a situation in which totally unanticipated consequences and unforseeable factors would scupper my plans I'd go into work. I play wargames to relax.


(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 40
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 5:01:40 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

remember there are bottlenecks, with out being bottlenecks, trainers upgrade to trainers, Jabos upgrade to Jabos, you kill off everything, you not going to have anything to fly for a good part of your forces

Bumps

If I lose it to conversion it will be sad.

But I think it will be a bit different in this game. At the start of the game non of the Bf 109Ga flying group accept Bf109G's now after 30 day the started to accept. And by the way how can we know which groups will fly Ta 152C in real life it was none.

And I will keep Me 410 for sure.

Curently I play low some 30 plane loses versus 150. half of them AA. When you now where the enemy will attacks AA can be devastating even better when some close air groups wating for damaged groups.


quote:

you need to fight the war in 43, not 44 or 45


I think 43 is bomber practice and 44 is fighter practice.



_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 41
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 5:12:24 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, hassle with that is, I am talking as a gamer, and not as designer, programmer, project lead

as a Gamer, I like the 335 and 152 over the 262

all things being egual, yea, the 262 should be better, but all things are not

which, if you want a answer, I would say the 262 costs too much, when you need other things more

( I don't think, cost wise, it is worth 4 152s, or maybe 2 335s, one on one, it may be the better plane, but a Gruppen of them, cost you alot of other planes you could be flying, as said, a Gruppen of 262s is 4 Gruppen of 152s, or 2 Gruppen of 335s)

my current test game, the AI needs 160+ engines, and most of his piston engine planes units are being bled white (out size of his 152s, nasty bugger)



_____________________________


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 42
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 7:49:02 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Hmm, I suppose that the thing is whether or not that single Gruppen of 262s will have such increased survivability that it is worth it in the long run... Well, that's what experimentation is for

I have a hunch that if we're just aiming for the bombers that the extra speed of the 262s on "direct bomber" missions might just let them get in and out with far fewer losses, whilst shooting down more bombers than a much larger number of 152s would.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 43
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 8:42:49 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Hmm, I suppose that the thing is whether or not that single Gruppen of 262s will have such increased survivability that it is worth it in the long run... Well, that's what experimentation is for

I have a hunch that if we're just aiming for the bombers that the extra speed of the 262s on "direct bomber" missions might just let them get in and out with far fewer losses, whilst shooting down more bombers than a much larger number of 152s would.


Survivability is not the issue. I tried in the old version. Range is a very limiting factor. It is only better in sense then 162. you need at least 5 or 6 groups in my exprience. or else they are for fanfare. Thats why I plan to skip R&D of 262 an go directly to Go 229 this way The range gives good coverage and good rear area nesting. One way to beat heavy engine consume is to start engine production early and dont R&D. this way once it is it is avaible you got plenty of stock to produce. But ths was in old version. ýt must be same in the nev version.

I prefer152's for making the bed. No matter what we need a good figter to take equal terms with allied figters. So jets can move freely. Or else shear number of allied figters sweep every possible Base and it is not always possible go though them I think.

Regards

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 44
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 8:48:37 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Hmm but if you don't research the Go-229 you'll get them sometime in October '45 which, IIRC, might be just a little bit too late

(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 45
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/2/2009 9:16:37 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline 		Thats another story.

I am trying to crash research Ta 152C now goal is to 75 research daily. It 20 days of research. And I think it will do fine just dual role fighter. The good news is then I can convert surplus production to Do 335 research because both use the same engine. And if that combo doesnt work either Me 262 will be avaible or will skip it for go 229. Ta 152C and Do335 are a better couple.

Normally there is no hope for large scale production of jets with such a large engine requirement. Actually starting Jet engine production early and stocking for a really efficient fighter is better. I think.

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 46
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 6:14:21 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		put rockets on the 262

the main goal for that fighter is to break up the formations and let the other planes get the glory



_____________________________


(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 47
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 11:00:33 AM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: guctony

Thats another story.

I am trying to crash research Ta 152C now goal is to 75 research daily. It 20 days of research. And I think it will do fine just dual role fighter. The good news is then I can convert surplus production to Do 335 research because both use the same engine. And if that combo doesnt work either Me 262 will be avaible or will skip it for go 229. Ta 152C and Do335 are a better couple.

Normally there is no hope for large scale production of jets with such a large engine requirement. Actually starting Jet engine production early and stocking for a really efficient fighter is better. I think.


in a game vs the AI you can do many things, but against a human you will need a nice stock of reserve aircraft, otherwise you wont produce many things with a crippled industry

_____________________________


(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 48
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 11:27:19 AM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: guctony

Thats another story.

I am trying to crash research Ta 152C now goal is to 75 research daily. It 20 days of research. And I think it will do fine just dual role fighter. The good news is then I can convert surplus production to Do 335 research because both use the same engine. And if that combo doesnt work either Me 262 will be avaible or will skip it for go 229. Ta 152C and Do335 are a better couple.

Normally there is no hope for large scale production of jets with such a large engine requirement. Actually starting Jet engine production early and stocking for a really efficient fighter is better. I think.


in a game vs the AI you can do many things, but against a human you will need a nice stock of reserve aircraft, otherwise you wont produce many things with a crippled industry




I eager to test that theory on a PBEM.

It is day 75 in AI campain. And I have 800 Ta 152C in stock. WE will see how they fill Fare against P 47 soon. Interestingly and very nicely wheater is gone bad for 10 days. something never happened in the old game. If this is developer additions Thank you very much.



_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to wernerpruckner)
Post #: 49
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 11:49:42 AM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		I think a research cap may be in order... 

_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 50
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 12:00:24 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

I think a research cap may be in order... 



Pardon me !!!

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 51
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 12:06:29 PM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		9 women cannot have a baby in 1 month. Technology rsearch is something that is supposed to take time. I think a cap would be one way.

The other way is to do what someone said the WITP:AE guys did - block research unless you can build the previous model (the 190D9, I think in this case). Either way makes sense to me.


_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 52
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 12:12:45 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

9 women cannot have a baby in 1 month. Technology rsearch is something that is supposed to take time. I think a cap would be one way.

The other way is to do what someone said the WITP:AE guys did - block research unless you can build the previous model (the 190D9, I think in this case). Either way makes sense to me.




Make sense to me Also. Imagine me not waiting so early to have such Ta 152C. I discover them accidentally in the pool. But I thing something is broken in the game. Even in clear Wheather turns are passing by. I thing AI is clever enough to not to mess with TA 152C.



< Message edited by guctony -- 10/3/2009 12:13:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 53
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 5:08:26 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		He had to convert more than 1/2 of all of his functional factories to research. So not many new planes. Then he got lucky and the allied stoped bombing on turn 72 for 50 consecutive days. Retooling is so much easier diring a long cease fire.

I'd say fix that problem (no AI attacks after turn 72) first. He might have been bombed to rubble if the AI was working because he had few replacement aircraft.



(in reply to harley)
Post #: 54
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 5:18:06 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		NO, but 9 women can have 9 babys in a month.

Don't nurf the PBM capabilities for research to much because the AI is not working. Against a human this strategy might now work as well.



(in reply to harley)
Post #: 55
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 5:30:34 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

NO, but 9 women can have 9 babys in a month.

Don't nurf the PBM capabilities for research to much because the AI is not working. Against a human this strategy might now work as well.





Uh, they can?

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 56
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 5:39:54 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		Opps.

OK...

Correction 9 women can have 9 babies in 9 months.




(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 57
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 5:41:08 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		Maybe more to the point 81 women can have 9 babies per month.

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 58
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 6:20:31 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

He had to convert more than 1/2 of all of his functional factories to research. So not many new planes. Then he got lucky and the allied stoped bombing on turn 72 for 50 consecutive days. Retooling is so much easier diring a long cease fire.

I'd say fix that problem (no AI attacks after turn 72) first. He might have been bombed to rubble if the AI was working because he had few replacement aircraft.






Please I would like to have some Credit also

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 59
RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) - 10/3/2009 6:22:49 PM   
guctony


Posts: 669
Joined: 6/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: guctony


quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

He had to convert more than 1/2 of all of his functional factories to research. So not many new planes. Then he got lucky and the allied stoped bombing on turn 72 for 50 consecutive days. Retooling is so much easier diring a long cease fire.

I'd say fix that problem (no AI attacks after turn 72) first. He might have been bombed to rubble if the AI was working because he had few replacement aircraft.






Please I would like to have some Credit also



I Dare say That I can repeat the same Result with any PBEM........

_____________________________

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder."
"Sovereignty is not given, it is taken."
"After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Mustafa Kemal

(in reply to guctony)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> RE: German fighter production discussion (BTR) Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

6.438