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- 7/1/2002 3:46:54 PM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duritz
[B]
If the book states that it was based on the Zero then I would suggest you will have to disregard it - the dates just don't work.

At home I have a book that says that if it wasn't for poor quality British troops and commanders then the 8th Australian Division would have stopped the Japanese in the Malaya peninsular - what crap!

Point is that authors sometimes lie or guess facts they don't have on hand, a deadline is approaching and you have to get it done so you sort of guess that last detail and send the chapter off to the printer. Perhaps the bloke who wrote it believed it to be true, why wouldn't he - I wish we had copied the Zero design instead of flying breadboxes with wings. BUT we didn't!
[/B][/QUOTE]

I would support Duritz on this point. As someone who decided to make a serious study of the 1815 campaign a few years ago I quickly discovered that most popular published history is wildly inaccurate. Particularly, that published close to the event. In the case of the 1815 campaign much was written which was heavily flavoured for the English market and supported English attitudes. The most common inaccuracy being of course that Wellington was English.

It therefore comes as no surprise to find a history book claiming that Australian aircraft were based upon the design of the zero. The reality is if you want to sell lots of copies of your book and be accepted into the community of local historians it doesn't hurt to stroke the national pride of your target audience at bit and its not a good idea to make any wildly controversal statements that contradict your peers even if they are based upon valid research.

Just look at the storm Peter Hofschroer caused when he published an account of the 1815 capaign based upon his own research in German archives.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 91

Subs hit fast targets too easily - 9/4/2002 9:27:39 PM

Top Cat

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/26/2002
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

I can handle subs making a mess of slow transport convoys, but not faster military vessels. Submarine commanders should quake in their boots if anything with sonar/depth charges are around.

I've just started playing scenario #19 (version 1.40) by PBEM and I've lost 2 destroyers and 5 sub chasers in 2 weeks to submarines, including 1 sub taking out 2 sub chasers in a single night/day. This is on top of several transports going down.

In return I've fired 2 depth charges and hit nothing. At this rate I'll be out of ASW capability by early 1943?

Most of this is happening in the shallow waters off Rabaul, with 3 Rabaul squadrons on ASW duties, height 1000ft + dedicated destroyer packs+ sub chasers!! :mad:

I've also nearly completed scenario #19 against the AI and to date neither side has lost a submarine to aircraft.

Top Cat

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 92

- 9/5/2002 12:04:54 AM

loader6

Posts: 198
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I agree they just seem too **** good, especially in shallow waters when confronted by numerous ASW platforms, especially DDs.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 93

- 9/5/2002 7:24:48 AM

Possum

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/27/2000
From: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Status: offline

Yet another area where the game could do with the introduction of a Group Experience rating, to reflect how important Teamwork was in hunting subs.
My impression so far is that every single attack carried out against a sub by aircraft and ships, is being resolved as a series of individual ship/plane vs sub battles.
Which, in real life did not happen that often. And, again in real life, the submarine should be expected to survive quite handily, which is exactly what is happening now.
Unfortunately, it is happening when there are mumerous ASW vessels involved, and that is incorrect.
Where there are 2 or more ASW vessels involved, then they should be ganging up on the sub, making it that much harder for the sub to survive.
6 Trained SC's pack attacking a submarine should guarantee that it must return to port with system dammage, and have a good chance of actually sinking the submarine, with no loss of SC's.
AS it now stands, if I send these 6 SC's chasing after a submarine, I can confidently expect the Submaring to sink 3 of them and make it's escape. Which is what I'd expect to happen only if all 6 SC's encountered the Submarine one at a time, with the SC's lookouts being compleatly oblivious to the threat of submarine attack.
Oh, and not learning from the prior experience of the SC ahead of them suddenly going Gloop, or exploding for no apparent reason.
Oh, and also, 4 experienced DE's/DD's/DML's/DMS's, trained to work as a team, should be the death any submarine that they find.
Please read some histories about ASW warfare. In particular, the account of the DE USS England in the Solomons in late 1943, for an example of how good a well drilled Escort team was at dispatching submarines.

_____________________________

"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 94

ASW - 9/5/2002 7:34:51 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Greetings, I admit enemy subs often sink one of my Subchasers but they usally die right afterwards when the rest of the TF goes after it. I see 2-4 ships attack enemy subs quite often.
(I also always use a DD or SC skipper as TF commander)
I use 2-3 SC and 1 DD as a core ( often when enemy sub has been spotted the previus turn I will send 4-6 SC and 2-3 DD in a single TF to hunt for it. This is when I sometimes lose an SC (but so far I have always gotten the sub)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 95

Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines - 9/6/2002 12:38:29 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Bowen
[B]************************************
It's true that 58 Jap subs were sunk by DDs and DEs, but of these, how many in 1942? And in 1943? The vast majority were destroyed in 1944. Better radar, better sonar, better tactics and training... But out of the time-frame of UV.
************************************

A very good point. Here is the loss data by year (subject to finger errors - its a lot of data handling!):

- - 1941 - -
Carrier A/C - 1
DD - 1

- - 1942 - -
DD - 4
DD and A/C - 1
DD and M/S - 1
DMS - 1
Mine - 1
PT - 2
SS - 3

- - 1943 - -
Aircraft - 2 Plus 1 Probable
Carrier A/C - 1
DD - 14
DD and A/C - 1
Mine - 1
PT - 1
PG - 1
PG and A/C - 1
SC - 2
SS - 2

- - 1944 - -
Carrier A/C - 4
DD - 16
DE - 14
DE and SC - 1
PG and M/S - 1
SS - 7

- - 1945 - -
Aircraft - 2
Carrier A/C - 6
DD - 4
DE - 5
DE and Carrier A/C - 1
Mine - 1
SS - 7 [/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, this date conflicts radically from Silent Victory (Clay Blair). Perhaps this is because "unknown causes" are said to be excluded from your list. On p. 553, he states there were 23 IJN subs lost in 1942, 22 in 1943. He doesn't give a breakdown except that 2 were sunk by subs in 1943, and on p.359 he states 6 were sunk by US subs in 1942. Has anyone seen a sub vs. sub battle in UV?

Your list was only 13 subs lost in 1942, and 26+1 prob. in 1943. A curious discrepancy for reasons unclear to me...

Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 96

Re: Historical data - 9/6/2002 2:29:49 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by entemedor
[B]Don, thanks a lot for all the information. So the 58 to 5 rate for the whole war is reduced to a 5 to 3 for 1942. I just wanted to point out that in the UV period ASW warfare was not so much lethal

Regards, [/B][/QUOTE]

Assuming you mean 5 to 3 for IJN subs vs. surface forces including DD and DEs. However, of the 3 DDs lost in 1942, there were rather peculiar circumstances in the case of the Hammann (tied up to the Yorktown) and O'Brien. The O'Brien had her bow blown off by the same attack that damaged the North Carolina. The I-19 was actually firing at the Hornet. The O'Brien made it back to port, was patched up, was sent back to the US - and sank in route. This could almost be considered an operational loss to some degree. This would be like dragging your cripple into Noumea, clicking Return to Pearl, and having the ship sink.

Although UV does a great job in simulation of operational AC losses, operational losses of ships seem to be limited to the rare occasion when a ship might strike a "friendly" mine and the everpresent SYS damage. Reading through the Official Chronology of the U.S. Navy in World War II, one would think the navies on both sides were being run while blind drunk. For instance:
10 Dec 1941 - BB New Mexico accidentally rams and sinks US freighter Oregon.
12 Dec S38 mistakenly torpedoes and sinks Norwegian (Allied) merchantman Hydra II.
12 Dec Jap. minelayer Naryu is damaged by marine casualty.
13 Dec Jap. cargo ship Nikkoku maru is stranded and wrecked.
14 Dec 1941 DD Craven collides with CA Northampton and is damaged.
14 Dec 1941 IJN Gunboat Zuiko maru driven aground, sinks in storm
16 Dec SS Tambor, damaged in operational casualty, retires from waters of Wake.
17 Dec Submarine RO66 is sunk in collision with sister ship RO62 off Wake Island.
17 Dec Philipine steamship Corregidor with 1200 passengers, hits an army mine and sinks with heavy loss of life.
19 Dec Destroyer Craven damaged by heavy seas
20 Dec SBDs from Enterprise accidentally bomb submarine Pompano TWICE.
21 Dec DD Paul Jones is damaged when her propellor strikes a sunken object.
24 Dec PT33 is damaged in grounding on reef (later burned in place)
26 Dec US subchaser PC451 accidentally rams and sinks US tug Nancy Moran.
26 Jap. DD Murusame and MSW W.20 damaged by marine casualty.
28 Dec DD Peary damaged when bombed and strafed by RAAF Hudsons.
28 Dec Jap DD Akikaze, cargo ships Kamogawa maru and Komaki maru are damaged by marine casualties
29 Dec submarine RO60 irrepairably damaged by grounding.
29 Dec US freighter Stonestreet is damaged by an evaporator explosion, and forced to abandon convoy and return to port.
3 Jan 1942 - Japanese freighter Meiko maru sunk by accidental gasoline explosions.

the list goes on and on, and includes some serious units, including major carriers, battleships, etc. Most of these are not minor accidents - they either removed the ship from the war for weeks, months, or sometimes permanently. There seem to be fewer listed as the war goes on, and I am not sure if this is because the navies got better, or the author got overwhelmed by the number and decided to stop listing them as they had less influence on the outcome of battles.

So, maybe UVs designers were NICE to us, and decided to simulate all of these horrible accidents, etc., by pinging us with a SYS damage every now and again. Perhaps a message like "BB Mutsu explodes and sinks for unknown reasons while in port" (as actually occured - turned out to be unstable ammo) might be more realistic (if aggravating).

Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 97

Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines - 9/6/2002 3:43:57 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rtrapasso
[B]

Gosh, this date conflicts radically from Silent Victory (Clay Blair). Perhaps this is because "unknown causes" are said to be excluded from your list. On p. 553, he states there were 23 IJN subs lost in 1942, 22 in 1943. He doesn't give a breakdown except that 2 were sunk by subs in 1943, and on p.359 he states 6 were sunk by US subs in 1942. Has anyone seen a sub vs. sub battle in UV?

Your list was only 13 subs lost in 1942, and 26+1 prob. in 1943. A curious discrepancy for reasons unclear to me...

Bob T. [/B][/QUOTE]

Here are the Japanese submarine losses - source is Japanese Warships of World War II by A.J. Watts. Hand copied - may have finger errors!

Date - Sub - Cause
12/10/41 I-70 Carrier Aircraft (USS Enterprise)
12/17/41 RO-66 Collision (with RO62)
12/29/41 RO-60 Wrecked
1/17/42 I-60 HMS Jupiter (DD)
1/20/42 I-124 USS Edsall (DD) and HMAS Deloraine, Katoomba, and Lithgow (AM)
1/27/42 I-73 USS Gudgeon (SS)
2/26/42 I-23 Missing as of 2/15/42, probably lost 2/26/42
5/17/42 I-28 USS Tautog (SS)
5/17/42 I-64 USS Triton (SS)
8/28/42 I-123 USS Gamble (DM)
8/29/42 RO-33 HMAS Arunta (DD)
8/31/42 RO-61 USS Reid (DD) and USN Aircraft
10/5/42 I-22 Missing
10/13/42 I-30 Mine (off Singapore)
11/2/42 I-15 USS McCalla (DD)
11/4/42 RO-65 Aircraft (in Kiska Harbor)
11/11/42 I-172 USS Southard (DMS)
12/9/42 I-3 PT-59
12/25/42 I-4 PT-122 - Probably
1/29/43 I-1 HNZMS Kiwi and HNZMS Moa (PGs)
2/11/43 I-18 USS Fletcher (DD)
4/7/43 RO-34 USS Strong (DD)
5/12/43 I-31 USS Edwards and USS Farragut (DDs)
5/14/43 RO-102 USS PT-150 and PT-152
6/11/43 I-24 USS SC-487
6/11/43 I-9 USS Frazier (DD)
6/22/43 I-7 USS Monaghan (DD)
7/12/43 RO-107 USS Taylor (DD)
7/14/43 I-179 Training Accident
7/27/43 I-168 USS Scamp (SS)
7/28/43 RO-103 Probably Mined
8/19/43 I-17 HNZMS Tui (PD) and USN Aircraft
8/25/43 RO-35 USS Ellet (DD)
9/1/43 I-182 USS Wadsworth
9/3/43 I-25 USS Petterson (DD)
9/15/43 RO-101 USS Saufley (DD) and USN Aircraft
9/29/43 I-178 USS SC-669
10/10/43 I-20 Missing
10/18/43 I-19 Probably sunk by USN Aircraft
11/13/43 I-34 HMS Taurus (SS)
11/22/43 I-35 USS Frazier and USS Meade (DDs)
11/24/43 RO-38 Sunk, Cause Unknown
11/25/43 I-40 USS Radford (DD)
11/25/43 RO-100 US Army Aircraft
11/26/43 I-39 USS Boyd (DD)
11/29/43 I-21 Carrier Aircraft (USS Chenago)
1/11/44 I-11 Missing
1/16/44 I-181 American Forces (!?!)
1/22/44 RO-37 USS Buchanan (DD)
2/1/44 I-175 USS Walker (DD)
2/3/44 I-171 Missing
2/5/44 RO-39 USS Charrette (DD) and USS Fair (DE)
2/11/44 RO-110 HMIS Jumna (PG) and HMAS Launceston and Ipswich (AM)
2/12/44 I-27 HMS Paladin and HMS Petard
2/15/44 I-43 USS Aspro (SS)
2/15/44 RO-40 USS Phelps (DD) and USS Sage (AM)
3/23/44 I-42 USS Tunny (SS)
3/24/44 I-32 USS Manlove (DE) and USS SC-1135
4/3/44 I-174 Missing
4/4/44 I-169 Damage after airraid on Truk harbor
4/6/44 I-2 USS Saufley (DD)
4/26/44 I-180 USS Gilmore (DE)
4/28/44 I-183 USS Pogy (SS)
4/30/44 RO-45 USS McDonough and USS Stephen Potter (DDs) and aircraft of USS Monterey
5/16/44 I-176 USS Franks, Harrard, Johnston (DDs)
5/19/44 I-16 USS England (DE)
5/22/44 RO-106 USS England (DE)
5/23/44 RO-104 USS England (DE)
5/23/44 RO-116 USS England (DE)
5/26/44 RO-108 USS England (DE)
5/31/44 RO-105 USS Hazelwood, McCord (DDs), England, George, Raby (DEs)
6/10/44 RO-42 USS Bangust (DE)
6/11/44 RO-111 USS Taylor (DD)
6/13/44 I-33 Training Accident
6/13/44 RO-36 USS Melvin (DD)
6/16/44 RO-44 USS Burden R Hastings (DE)
6/17/44 RO-114 US Melvin and USS Wadleigh (DDs)
6/17/44 RO-117 USS Melvin and USS Wadleigh (DDs)
6/19/44 I-184 Carrier Aircraft (USS Suwannee)
6/22/44 I-185 USS Chandler, Newcombe (DDs)
6/24/44 I-52 Carrier Aircraft (USS Bogue)
7/1/44 RO-48 Unknown - July, 1944
7/4/44 I-10 USS David W Taylor (DD) and USS Riddle (DE)
7/14/44 I-6 USS William C Miller (DE) - Probably
7/17/44 I-166 HMS Telemachus (SS)
7/19/44 I-5 USS Wyman (DE)
7/26/44 I-29 USS Sailfish (SS)
7/28/44 I-55 USS Wyman and USS Reynolds (DEs)
9/16/44 I-364 USS Sea Devil (SS)
9/25/44 RO-47 USS McCoy Reynolds (DE)
10/3/44 I-177 USS Samuel S Miles (DE)
10/25/44 I-54 USS Richard M Rowell (DE)
10/27/44 I-26 Missing
10/28/44 I-46 USS Helm (DD)
10/29/44 I-45 USS Whitehurst (DE)
11/12/44 I-38 USS Nicholas (DD)
11/18/44 I-41 Carrier Aircraft (USS Anzio) and USS Lawrence C Taylor (DE)
11/19/44 I-37 USS Conklin (DD) and USS McCoy Reynolds (DE)
11/29/44 I-365 USS Scabbardfish (SS)
1/5/45 I-12 Missing after 1/5/45
1/18/45 I-362 USS Fleming (DE)
1/23/45 I-48 USS Conklin, USS Corbesier, USS Raby (DEs)
1/31/45 RO-115 USS Bell, Jenkins, O'Bannon (DD) and Ulvert M Moore (DE)
2/7/45 RO-55 USS Thomason (DE)
2/11/45 RO-112 USS Batfish (SS)
2/13/45 RO-113 USS Batfish (SS)
2/24/45 I-371 USS Lagarto (SS)
2/26/45 I-370 USS Finnegan (DE)
2/26/45 RO-43 Carrier Aircraft (USS Anzio)
2/27/45 I-368 Carrier Aircraft (USS Anzio)
3/23/45 RO-41 USS Haggard (DD)
3/31/45 I-8 USS Morrison and USS Stockton (DDs)
4/5/45 RO-49 USS Hudson (DD)
4/8/45 I-56 USS Heerman, McCord, Collet, Mertz, and Uhlmann (DDs) and Aircraft of USS Bataan
4/9/45 RO-56 USS Mertz and USS Monssen (DDs)
4/12/45 RO-64 Mined
4/18/45 RO-46 USS Sea Owl (SS)
4/25/45 RO-109 USS Horace A Bass (DE)
4/29/45 I-44 Carrier Aircraft (USS Tulagi)
5/30/45 I-361 Carrier Aircraft (USS Anzio)
6/10/45 I-122 USS Skate (SS)
6/27/45 I-165 USN Aircraft
7/14/45 I-351 USS Bluefish (SS)
7/16/45 I-13 Carrier Aircraft and USS Lawrence C Taylor (DE)
7/18/45 I-372 USN Aircraft
7/28/45 I-404 Carrier Aircraft from US Third Fleet
8/14/45 I-373 USS Spikefish (SS)

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 98

Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines - 9/6/2002 5:05:12 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Bowen
[B]

Here are the Japanese submarine losses - source is Japanese Warships of World War II by A.J. Watts. Hand copied - may have finger errors!

Date - Sub - Cause
12/10/41 I-70 Carrier Aircraft (USS Enterprise)
12/17/41 RO-66 Collision (with RO62)
12/29/41 RO-60 Wrecked
1/17/42 I-60 HMS Jupiter (DD)
1/20/42 I-124 USS Edsall (DD) and HMAS Deloraine, Katoomba, and Lithgow (AM)
1/27/42 I-73 USS Gudgeon (SS)
2/26/42 I-23 Missing as of 2/15/42, probably lost 2/26/42
5/17/42 I-28 USS Tautog (SS)
5/17/42 I-64 USS Triton (SS)
8/28/42 I-123 USS Gamble (DM)
8/29/42 RO-33 HMAS Arunta (DD)
8/31/42 RO-61 USS Reid (DD) and USN Aircraft
10/5/42 I-22 Missing
10/13/42 I-30 Mine (off Singapore)
11/2/42 I-15 USS McCalla (DD)
11/4/42 RO-65 Aircraft (in Kiska Harbor)
11/11/42 I-172 USS Southard (DMS)
12/9/42 I-3 PT-59
12/25/42 I-4 PT-122 - Probably
[snip...]
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow! Great compilation!
I will only concern myself here with 1942. OK - I am not sure where the discrepancy lies, and if one source is more current than another. The edition of Silent Victory I am quoting is 2001, presumably the most current. Page 361, he credits six IJN submarines sunk by US subs, crediting Gudgeon, Tautog (two), Triton, Grayback, and Seadragon.
Gudgeon is credited with sinking I-173 on 1/27/42 as a result of radio intelligence.
Tautog is credited with I-28 in May 1942.

Triton is credited with I-64 on 17 May 1942.

Grayback is credited with I-18 in December 1942 (p343), however, Official Chronology says I-18 sunk by Fletcher as per your source.

Seadragon is credited with I-4 in postwar JANAC records. According to The Official Chronology of the US Navy, this occurred on 21 Dec between New Britain and New Ireland at 5 deg 2 min S, 152 deg 33 min E, while I-4 was engaged in resupply mission to Guadalcanal.

I still can't find the second sub Blair credits to Tautog. The book does not give a list of ships or warships sunk by submarine, but gives lists of tonnage and numbeers of ships sunk. If I find it, I will list another post.
Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 99

Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines - 9/6/2002 6:00:59 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rtrapasso
[B]

Gudgeon is credited with sinking I-173 on 1/27/42 as a result of radio intelligence.

Tautog is credited with I-28 in May 1942.

Triton is credited with I-64 on 17 May 1942.

Grayback is credited with I-18 in December 1942 (p343), however, Official Chronology says I-18 sunk by Fletcher as per your source.

Seadragon is credited with I-4 in postwar JANAC records. According to The Official Chronology of the US Navy, this occurred on 21 Dec between New Britain and New Ireland at 5 deg 2 min S, 152 deg 33 min E, while I-4 was engaged in resupply mission to Guadalcanal.

I still can't find the second sub Blair credits to Tautog. The book does not give a list of ships or warships sunk by submarine, but gives lists of tonnage and numbeers of ships sunk. If I find it, I will list another post.
Bob T. [/B][/QUOTE]

The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for Tautug credits her with RO-30 on April 26, 1942. Japanese Warships of WWII states RO-30 scrapped post war. Conway All the World's Warships agrees with the scrap in 1947.

Also note that Japanese I-boats with numbers < 100 were renumbered late in the war by adding 100 (I-73 becomming I-173, etc). Most of my sources give the number at time of loss but several use the +100 number.

A web search turned up:
http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_075/m_056.htm
which turns out to be a book for sale but the listing has some interesting data.

Don

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 100

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submar... - 9/6/2002 9:34:05 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Bowen
[B]

The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for Tautug credits her with RO-30 on April 26, 1942. Japanese Warships of WWII states RO-30 scrapped post war. Conway All the World's Warships agrees with the scrap in 1947.

Also note that Japanese I-boats with numbers < 100 were renumbered late in the war by adding 100 (I-73 becomming I-173, etc). Most of my sources give the number at time of loss but several use the +100 number.

A web search turned up:
http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_075/m_056.htm
which turns out to be a book for sale but the listing has some interesting data.

Don [/B][/QUOTE]

After cross-checking references, Blair does state that Tautog sunk RO-30 on 26 April 1942. This is one of the most vivid sub-vs-sub described in his book (p229). According to Blair "En route to the Marshalls, Joe Willingham's Tautog was nearly sunk by a Japanese submarine. At about 10 a.m., on April 26, while proceeding on the surface, Tautog's officer of the deck sighted a periscope "opening out, prepartory to firing." With fine presence of mind, the OOD ordered hard left rudder and called the crew to battle stations. When the stern torpedo tubes came into position, Willingham fired a single torpedo. It either hit or exploded magnetically *above* the Japanese submarine. Willingham flashed a passing patrol plane to investigate. The pilot reported boxes, cushions and other debris. RO-30, a 1,000 ton submarine, was striken from the Japanese navy list."
Now, I thought all this stuff in Blair's book was supposed to be confirmed by JANAC records. However, in searching the date for this incident in Official Chronology USN around this date, there is no mention of said encounter. Normally, this book mentions most piddly little incidents like "submarine attacked by aircraft but sustained no damage". I am not sure what to make of this. However, it is 3 sources to 2 that RO-30 did not get sunk on this date.
In investigating an cross-referencing Silent Victory on this matter, I have found what appear to be several errors - possibly typographical, possibly not. There are several confusing sections regarding I-boat identities. For instance. on page 476, it is stated that the Scamp sunk I-24, however, on page 553, it says Trout sank her, and that Scamp sunk the I-182. (Actually, it appears Scamp really sunk I-168 according to OCUSN and JWWW2 - this was the boat that got the Yorktown). On page 418, I-24 (or possibly I-31) was sunk by destroyers DCs in the Aleutians. Both OCUSN and JWWW2 state that the I-24 was rammed and sunk by PC 487 (or SC 487). SV says I-9 was rammed and sunk - OCUSN and JWWW2 say it was DD Frazier's depth charges that did it. So, there is confusion in Blair's book - disappointing, as I thought it was the definitive reference.
However, you have given me a couple more excellent leads for references. I really like the OCUSN book, but it has no index, so you have to know what dates to look on.
Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? It appears up until the fall of the Dutch East Indies, they were doing significant damage to the IJN, and even continued well into 1944 at least. There is one Dutch sub, the Zwaardvisch (I'm betting that's Swordfish in Dutch) that seems to have wreaked havoc in the Java Sea, even sinking a U-boat U-168 (!!) on 6 Oct 1944 and taking 27 of the crew prisoner (OCUSN p261). I keep running across references to this and some other subs from time to time, but they seem to be largely ignored in the US literature.
Thanks again,
Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 101

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Su... - 9/6/2002 10:29:27 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rtrapasso
[B] Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? Thanks again,
Bob T. [/B][/QUOTE]

Try http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/dutch_subs.html
And http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

Don

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 102

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanes... - 9/6/2002 9:36:31 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Bowen
[B]

Try http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/dutch_subs.html
And http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

Don [/B][/QUOTE]

I had the [url]www.dutchsub[/url] site - which is detailed as to ships, but not organized as to the campaign. The geocities has a nice run down of the brief campaign the Dutch had in 1941 before Soerabaja was taken. However, I was hoping you might know offhand about some book that had more details. I will try to do a search at Amazon - they sometimes turn up stuff in used or out of print books. If anything turns up, I'll mention it.
Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 103

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submar... - 9/7/2002 6:05:25 AM

rtrapasso

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(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 104

You won! - 9/7/2002 3:27:52 PM

BPRE

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? It appears up until the fall of the Dutch East Indies, they were doing significant damage to the IJN, and even continued well into 1944 at least. There is one
Dutch sub, the Zwaardvisch (I'm betting that's Swordfish in Dutch) that seems to have wreaked havoc in the
Java Sea, even sinking a U-boat U-168 (!!) on 6 Oct 1944 and taking 27 of the crew prisoner (OCUSN p261).
[/QUOTE]

Hi Bob,

You'll win the bet. It does mean Swordfish.

Regards
BPRE

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 105

Re: You won! - 9/8/2002 12:05:55 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BPRE
[B]

Hi Bob,

You'll win the bet. It does mean Swordfish.

Regards
BPRE [/B][/QUOTE]

Aha! Thanks for the confirmation!

Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 106

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submar... - 9/11/2002 6:41:49 AM

rtrapasso

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(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 107

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Su... - 9/11/2002 7:13:20 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rtrapasso
[B]
As a followup, I actually went ahead and ordered the book in the ad you sent me "Japanese Submarine Losses to Allied Submarines in World War II" by James Milller.

He credits the following actual sinkings of IJN subs in 1942:
1. I-73 by Gudgeon 27 Jan
2. No actual sinking by Gudgeon on 26 April (discredits reports of sinking of I-23, RO-30).
3. I-28 by Tautog 17 May
4. I-64 by Triton 17 May (2 in one day by US subs);
5. I-4 by Seadrogon 21 Dec ("almost certainly").
so actually 4 by US Subs in 1942.

in 1943:
1. no actual sinking by Grayback 2 or 3
Jan (I-18 generally credited)
2. I-168 by Scamp 27 July
3. no actual sinking by Trout on 9 Sept (I-182 generally credited by many sources)
4. I-34 by HMS Taurus 13 Nov (non-US sub)

So... according to this source, only 1 IJN sub sunk by US Subs in 1943.

Curiously, he also says some of the JANAC records disagree with Japanese records in several cases, where people sources say JANAC was supposed to be BASED on Japanese records.

Miller quotes lots of different sources in this monograph - many of them disagree about who sunk what - he uses the best sources available and notes discrepancies.

Bob T. [/B][/QUOTE]
Very (very very) interesting. Does the book give any information on losses to other causes? Might have to get this one.

Don

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 108

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanes... - 9/11/2002 7:42:20 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Bowen
[B]
Very (very very) interesting. Does the book give any information on losses to other causes? Might have to get this one.

Don [/B][/QUOTE]

He mentions some losses due to PT boats, the I-24 ramming, DD attacks some operational losses, but only in relation to IJN subs claimed by US subs. For instance, in the I-4, which he credits to SEADRAGON, he says "Orita and others state that the last transmission was received by I-4 on 21 December. Some sources still credit I-4 to PT-122 at 08-32S, 148-17E off the mouth of the Kumusu River, on 25 Dec 1942. Buckley states. '... object of attack and degree of damage inflicted must still be considered uncertain.'
Actually, PT-122 was credited with sinking I-22 (Commander Chinao Narizawa) immediated after the war, but that claim, also, is very much in doubt."

There is no systemic treatment of causes other than Allied subs. It is 50 pages only, and a very quick read (double spaced, some photos) - it took me only 1/2 hour. There are some photos of Allied and IJN subs.

Bob T.

(in reply to Paul Goodman)

Post #: 109