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RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 12:38:29 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

I think a main concern, which I've seen happen in countless games, is that tweaks to singleplayer often screw up multiplayer. I remember when I played Company of Heroes, there were balance issues that could not be tweaked because it would throw off the single player campaign. Not saying it would happen, but I'd hate to see the same with AE because of some unrealistic expectations from an AI. I'm not telling people how they should play the game, but it is what it is. Pbem players have needs and concerns too right?

Sometimes I wish there were seperate patches for singleplayer and multiplayer.

Interesting, you said there is some support for multiplayer... are you saying that this is primarily a singleplayer game against the AI? I guess I need to ask this upfront before buying games in the future.



HELLO, haven't you been reading how great the game is by PBEM folks. Are you thinking they are being ignored and are second class citizens? What part of "they are enjoying a more realistic game," don't you understand? Are you saying that if you asked your question "up front" you wouldn't have bought this wonderful game?

Sir me thinks you are just argumentative, as a nice way of saying how I really think of how out of it/full of it, you are.

< Message edited by Buck Beach -- 10/10/2009 12:40:11 AM >

(in reply to IronWarrior)
Post #: 91
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 1:07:45 AM   
IronWarrior


Posts: 801
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: Beaverton, OR
Status: offline
lol mmk so I'm not allowed to be bored to tears by playing against an AI? I have absolutely zero interest in a singleplayer focused game against an AI. I only use that function to learn a game. Yes, I am saying that from now on I would like to know what crowd the developers intend to cater to beforehand. I have nothing against those types of games or those who play them, just not my thing (hope that's OK with you) and would like to know ahead of time. The primary reason I uninstall games are because of a patch fixing singleplayer concerns and leaving the multiplayer community scratching their heads. Can't count the number of times it's happened and I'd rather just avoid it in the future.

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Post #: 92
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 1:52:33 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
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From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

lol mmk so I'm not allowed to be bored to tears by playing against an AI? I have absolutely zero interest in a singleplayer focused game against an AI. I only use that function to learn a game. Yes, I am saying that from now on I would like to know what crowd the developers intend to cater to beforehand. I have nothing against those types of games or those who play them, just not my thing (hope that's OK with you) and would like to know ahead of time. The primary reason I uninstall games are because of a patch fixing singleplayer concerns and leaving the multiplayer community scratching their heads. Can't count the number of times it's happened and I'd rather just avoid it in the future.



I have to be careful here so as not to be banned for violating board rules.

Again HELLO, who said you are not allowed to be anything? Who said you should play against the AI, when there are so many who are currently enjoying PBEM and rightfully so?

My suggestion to you is store your cash and investigate a game first and spot questions on a forum as to your concerns. Rocket science stuff eh? Poor baby, would you have us think that you are the only one who purchased a game only to delete it from your hard drive later.

By your comments, I guess you are now sorry you purchased AE as a game not being completely upfront with your expectations. I am 100% sure you could resell the game to recoup a good portion of your loss.

Dude, I still think you are just argumentative contrary (sic) type and you really should think about pursuing your happiness elsewhere on some sort of debate forum.

As you state as to where you are from "Way out in left field", Well brother you can sing that.

< Message edited by Buck Beach -- 10/10/2009 1:55:09 AM >

(in reply to IronWarrior)
Post #: 93
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 1:55:38 AM   
Tone


Posts: 161
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From: Around The Sun
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No need to quarrel please. one game with two forms of enjoyment.

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and the vanquished are
but drops of dew,
but bolts of lightning -
thus should we view the world.
Ôuchi Yoshitaka
1507-1551

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 94
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 1:57:08 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
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From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tone

No need to quarrel please. one game with two forms of enjoyment.



But the dude seems to think he has been duped into buying our (collective) game.

(in reply to Tone)
Post #: 95
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 2:04:50 AM   
IronWarrior


Posts: 801
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From: Beaverton, OR
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Perhaps you don't understand the phrase: "from now on". Wow you're calling me argumentative!?

Yes I am currently enjoying pbem with AE, and you know what? I want to keep it that way. Of course that is out of my control and is why I would like to know what the philosophy of the dev team is in the future before I buy a game. Again, I hope that's OK with you.

Yep "way out in left field" and pround of it! Got a problem with that?

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 10/10/2009 2:05:23 AM >


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Post #: 96
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 2:28:50 AM   
fbs

 

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I think that you two should resolve this by the long-honored, manly traditional way: duel it out.

PBEM duel, that is. One takes the Japanese, the other the Allies, and the one that loses has to eat an onion.

Cheers
fbs

(in reply to IronWarrior)
Post #: 97
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 2:29:39 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

Perhaps you don't understand the phrase: "from now on". Wow you're calling me argumentative!?

Yes I am currently enjoying pbem with AE, and you know what? I want to keep it that way. Of course that is out of my control and is why I would like to know what the philosophy of the dev team is in the future before I buy a game. Again, I hope that's OK with you.

Yep "way out in left field" and pround of it! Got a problem with that?



Guess you got lucky with AE and got bang for your buck. Then I have to ask you "What's the hubbub bub" Your sophomoric attack on a small insignificant portion of JWE comment gives evidence of your "just looking for an opening to appear intelligent" portrait. You want the last word just respond to this comment with anything and I promise you that will be the last of this issue. But while my approval isn't necessary don't make yourself look worse than you already have (not that I care in the least).

(in reply to IronWarrior)
Post #: 98
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 2:33:23 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


I think that you two should resolve this by the long-honored, manly traditional way: duel it out.

PBEM duel, that is. One takes the Japanese, the other the Allies, and the one that loses has to eat an onion.

Cheers
fbs



Surely (if your name is Shirley) you jest dude. BTW I like onions "they have layers"

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 99
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 5:03:01 AM   
stuman


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From: Elvis' Hometown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?


I am playing Scen 2, historical and it has been fun so far. I just pulled up the Japanese side ( I am playing as the allies ) and there does not seem to be a bunch of bizarre things going on. Some bases are maybe uncovered, some bases do not have as much aviation support as I have to have, etc . But all in all I do not see any major issues.

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Post #: 100
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 5:15:11 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?


I am playing Scen 2, historical and it has been fun so far. I just pulled up the Japanese side ( I am playing as the allies ) and there does not seem to be a bunch of bizarre things going on. Some bases are maybe uncovered, some bases do not have as much aviation support as I have to have, etc . But all in all I do not see any major issues.

Thanks, Stuman. I wonder if my initial settings or switch from initial settings may have caused most of the problems I've identified. I may check out historical settings post patch II.

(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 101
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 5:37:05 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
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From: Elvis' Hometown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Do ya' remember when we were pushing cardboard counters around on a map which covered an entire ping pong table?
We were all having a good time, having swiped cold chicken from the fridge upstairs, hoping the hosts' wife would not be home to check on it till after we left.......and everybody was nice and polite with each other...till "Rodney", the group nerd finally un-assed the toilet upstairs and came down in his miserable blue colored Bermuda shorts, dorm 'flip-flops", and the plastic pocket protector for his multi-colourd ink pens.

"Rodney" always had the rule book folded into his rear pocket, and you just KNEW he had been thumbing thru the pages during his "sabbatical" upstairs.....and he was sure to pull some new and recently learned "tricks" he had just gleaned between rule 22a and rules 26b, and WHO was gonna wanna look thru the rulebook after good 'ol "Rodney" had been thumbing throught it "UP THERE"????

Well....the deal is....."Rodney" is still with us...He is the AI, and always has been, except now, "Rodney" is bigger, picks his runny nose more often, and belches like your mother-in-law!

I like what they did to the AI, compared to the imbecile we used to contend with.

(From now on, ya' gotta bring your own chicken.)



Damn, did we play against each other ? And Rodney was , and still is, a jerk. He lives only a couple of miles from me

_____________________________

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Post #: 102
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 5:47:10 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
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From: Elvis' Hometown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?


I am playing Scen 2, historical and it has been fun so far. I just pulled up the Japanese side ( I am playing as the allies ) and there does not seem to be a bunch of bizarre things going on. Some bases are maybe uncovered, some bases do not have as much aviation support as I have to have, etc . But all in all I do not see any major issues.

Thanks, Stuman. I wonder if my initial settings or switch from initial settings may have caused most of the problems I've identified. I may check out historical settings post patch II.


I am only in middle Feb '42 mind you. FOW is interesting as well. I have definately been fooled by the AI as to where the KB is, etc. I am sure that the AI will slow down by late '42 or so, but I am enjoying this even more than I did playing WiTP. Yes, the AI is not perfect, but then again nor am I

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Post #: 103
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 12:07:34 PM   
JeffroK


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Playing the japanese AI and am up to 8/8/43. Dont even start about PBEM, I gave up on trying that years back.

Dont expect too much from the AI, while it has some cute moves, like parking KB off the coast of Ceylon for a month fuel free, it still does the same dumb things.  I got a Bde to Koumac based on Intel, I think I pushed back 4-5 poorly supported invasions, same at Dutch Harbour. Got a BB led STF raid on PH about 6/42, shot to ribbons by land Air & CV Air.

The AI took Pt Moresby, 1 Div + against my 6 Bdes (Only Militia), but when I got into gear I took it aginst a Baseforce & a Gd Unit. Same with Terapo, except it was left empty.

In the Air I have JUST got some Superiority, while the Allied aircraft numbers are(seem) a lot less than in WITP, they seem pretty historical, but despite suffering about a 3:5 loss ratio, there are over 1000 Ki-27, Ki43 & A6M2's in the japanese arsenal. When I peeked i also noticed the Manchuria Garrison about 2000pts below the limit.

Since about 8/42 I havent seen KB, despite taking back Wake Is, Munda, Papua New Guinea and pushing through Burma to the gates of Rangoon.  I have only sunk 2 IJN CV (same loss to me)


I'm all for an improvement to the AI, better scripts and maybe a small increase to its combat results, but now its gone to the ridiculous with the advantages the AI has (or something is broken) and still has the same dumb tactics.





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Post #: 104
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 1:59:15 PM   
Oldguard1970

 

Posts: 578
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From: Hiawassee, GA
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Hi Jeff,

I wonder what setting you are using? The AI gets advantages at harder settings.

The better (or simply "different") scripts you want might come from us, the players.

As in WITP, I expect learn the game from the AI and then reach the point that I can "read the scripts". The mystery will be gone, but I will have had a grand time getting to that point. After that, I hope to be able to download some player modified AI scripts to engage in new AI challenges while I wait for the next PBEM turn.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


I'm all for an improvement to the AI, better scripts and maybe a small increase to its combat results, but now its gone to the ridiculous with the advantages the AI has (or something is broken) and still has the same dumb tactics.







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Post #: 105
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 3:16:00 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman
quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott
Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

I am playing Scen 2, historical and it has been fun so far. I just pulled up the Japanese side ( I am playing as the allies ) and there does not seem to be a bunch of bizarre things going on. Some bases are maybe uncovered, some bases do not have as much aviation support as I have to have, etc . But all in all I do not see any major issues.

Thanks, Stuman. I wonder if my initial settings or switch from initial settings may have caused most of the problems I've identified. I may check out historical settings post patch II.

I think that’s probably true Chickenboy.

It all depends on the degree of difficulty setting for the AI. A “harder” AI isn’t smarter, and it uses the same scripts. It just gets more “stuff” to do its thing with and is allowed to do certain things that a player is not: the harder the setting, the more stuff it gets. It’s just a way to keep it from running out of steam.

What does happen, though, is that once you play on ‘hard’ or ‘very hard’ for a while, you will get that extra “stuff”. Values (amounts) and positions (locations) are written into their datafields in the savegame, and so will still be there if/when you resume a game on the ‘historical’ setting.

Btw, I play in a CPX mode – mostly H2H, but with an open main menu so the umpire can turn on the AI and advance the game for a week or so of turns every now and then. We run into some of the same things, and normally don’t run the AI at anything over ‘historical’ difficulty.

You might try running turns on a schedule - 4-5 on 'historical', then 2-3 on 'hard' or even 'very hard', then back to 'historical'. That would limit the size and scope of the extra "stuff", but would still allow a zinger or two to make life interesting, perhaps.

< Message edited by JWE -- 10/10/2009 3:24:45 PM >


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Post #: 106
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 4:11:03 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

AFB vs. JFB = Political Differences. As in politics you have 20% at each end of the spectrum who will play only one side, be it Allied or Japan. But the majority, even if they have a preference, will usually try both. That won't stop the true believers from complaining that the game favors the other side, though.

PBEM vs. AI = Religion. Here people tend to be one or the other. There's a small group in the middle who may play PBEM and AI, but they are a tiny minority. The vast majority play the game only one way, they have strong reasons for doing so, and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any discussion is going to alter their opinions. That won't stop the rabid PBEMers from preaching to the conservative AIers, though.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 107
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 4:29:20 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
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Well speaking of the AI vs PBEM survey from the WITP days; when I took that survey, I played exclusively against the AI. Now that I have played a couple of PBEMs, I hardly ever play against the AI. Things change. People try new things.

There is nothing wrong with playing against the AI, however no one should be in here trying to discourage players from trying PBEM either. This AI vs PBEM is as politcal and partisan as RL politics, and it accomplishes nothing. In fact it is highly offensive. And to be honest, when you have to resort to name calling, insults or purposely trying to incite anger, you have lost the debate.

People need to step back and cool down. There is no need to be hostile about something that is your own choice...no one is forcing anyone to play either style.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 10/10/2009 4:55:05 PM >


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Post #: 108
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 4:46:26 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

PBEM vs. AI = Religion. Here people tend to be one or the other. There's a small group in the middle who may play PBEM and AI, but they are a tiny minority. The vast majority play the game only one way, they have strong reasons for doing so, and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any discussion is going to alter their opinions. That won't stop the rabid PBEMers from preaching to the conservative AIers, though.



I think you have this one "dead on". Touch "religion", start a fight! Though I honestly believe most of the "PBEMer's" frustration lies with those "AI onlier"s" that seem to refuse to even try PBEM. Everybody's played against the AI, if only as a learning/practice aide. But many of the "AI only side" give the impression of having never even tried PBEM...., and religious "fundamentalists" of any stripe tend to annoy more open-minded folks. It's hard to see this "discussion" ending any time soon.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 109
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 5:54:55 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman
quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott
Maybe playing on normal difficulty is the way to go.

How good of a game does the AI give you on normal?

I am playing Scen 2, historical and it has been fun so far. I just pulled up the Japanese side ( I am playing as the allies ) and there does not seem to be a bunch of bizarre things going on. Some bases are maybe uncovered, some bases do not have as much aviation support as I have to have, etc . But all in all I do not see any major issues.

Thanks, Stuman. I wonder if my initial settings or switch from initial settings may have caused most of the problems I've identified. I may check out historical settings post patch II.

I think that’s probably true Chickenboy.

It all depends on the degree of difficulty setting for the AI. A “harder” AI isn’t smarter, and it uses the same scripts. It just gets more “stuff” to do its thing with and is allowed to do certain things that a player is not: the harder the setting, the more stuff it gets. It’s just a way to keep it from running out of steam.

What does happen, though, is that once you play on ‘hard’ or ‘very hard’ for a while, you will get that extra “stuff”. Values (amounts) and positions (locations) are written into their datafields in the savegame, and so will still be there if/when you resume a game on the ‘historical’ setting.

Btw, I play in a CPX mode – mostly H2H, but with an open main menu so the umpire can turn on the AI and advance the game for a week or so of turns every now and then. We run into some of the same things, and normally don’t run the AI at anything over ‘historical’ difficulty.

You might try running turns on a schedule - 4-5 on 'historical', then 2-3 on 'hard' or even 'very hard', then back to 'historical'. That would limit the size and scope of the extra "stuff", but would still allow a zinger or two to make life interesting, perhaps.

Interesting idea-toggling back and forth. I'd never considered that...

I think my greatest disappointment with my findings of AI cheating isn't that the AI was cheating or the way it was cheating, but the fact that these cheats will limit my ability to play the game in a meaningful manner.

For example, I had hoped to, as IRL, use the allies superior production to force a war of attrition with the IJ. I CAN'T do that now. Where IRL malaria and supply issues eroded significant IJA strength throughout the SRA, that just won't happen here, leaving me to find a non-IRL workaround to succeed. My God, I don't even want to think about what will happen when the IJ AI gets limitless Kamikazes, even if they're trained in the 35% range.

Since the AI does not observe LCU HQs or zones, it is unlikely that I will be able to force any sort of land war in Burma early. It may just flood the area with 1000+ AV from the Manchuko garrison. It's not too worried about garrison requirements. About the only thing I can do is continue to swat away superfluous aircraft that shouldn't exist in the aim of furthering my survival in the DEI (particularly Java and Timor). As KB does not require torpedo or sortie replenishment, time to repair damaged airframes or fuel, it can hover for ridiculous amounts of time and pound away at whatever strikes its scripted fancy. There's a point at which I just cannot suspend my disbelief about the attempts to mimic a game. CVL Hermes is a one-shot wonder for torpedo loadout-1 sortie by its air group before torpedo reload is necessary. KB can sit offshore with limitless reserves and attack a port from the air for a week, set afire every ship within 8 hexes, bomb the burning hulks again, depth charge the hulks from the depths and sink them with gunfire.

It doesn't look like the AI gets supernumerary ships or 'made up' LCUs, so my only real chance of gaining victory is to sink large numbers of underescorted troopships and combatants or destroy LCUs in their entirety, to avoid them drawing replacements. While digitally drowning the little binary buggers does provide some satisfaction, it rings hollow.

The way to 'beat' the AI is different than one will 'beat' a human opponent. I had hoped that the path to victory would be somewhat similar. Now I see that that's not possible. Trying to 'out cheat' the AI isn't entertaining. That's my greatest disappointment.

I will reload the GC after patch II and play only the historical settings to see if the planned changes affect AI gameplay.

Thank you very much to all that have listened and commiserated. I appreciate the discussion and advice.

Andy Mac: I appreciate your efforts to make the AI *more* playable than it was with WiTP. It is-you've succeeded as far as I'm concerned. I hope you don't find my commentary here offensive or demeaning to your considerable efforts. You still have a lot of supporters out there that laud your efforts re: the AI. I can only imagine the time and labor that you've put into this beast...

Alright, 'nuff said already. Cheers and see you in the Opponents Wanted section.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 110
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 6:07:09 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

AFB vs. JFB = Political Differences. As in politics you have 20% at each end of the spectrum who will play only one side, be it Allied or Japan. But the majority, even if they have a preference, will usually try both. That won't stop the true believers from complaining that the game favors the other side, though.

PBEM vs. AI = Religion. Here people tend to be one or the other. There's a small group in the middle who may play PBEM and AI, but they are a tiny minority. The vast majority play the game only one way, they have strong reasons for doing so, and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any discussion is going to alter their opinions. That won't stop the rabid PBEMers from preaching to the conservative AIers, though.


Good analisys, I guess I am in the middle on both. I mostly play Allies but do play Japan sometimes. I mostly play PBEM but with the better AI in AE I have a game against the Allied AI going now.

_____________________________


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Post #: 111
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 6:33:06 PM   
Tomcat


Posts: 131
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

PBEM vs. AI = Religion. Here people tend to be one or the other. There's a small group in the middle who may play PBEM and AI, but they are a tiny minority. The vast majority play the game only one way, they have strong reasons for doing so, and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any discussion is going to alter their opinions. That won't stop the rabid PBEMers from preaching to the conservative AIers, though.



I think you have this one "dead on". Touch "religion", start a fight! Though I honestly believe most of the "PBEMer's" frustration lies with those "AI onlier"s" that seem to refuse to even try PBEM. Everybody's played against the AI, if only as a learning/practice aide. But many of the "AI only side" give the impression of having never even tried PBEM...., and religious "fundamentalists" of any stripe tend to annoy more open-minded folks. It's hard to see this "discussion" ending any time soon.



I really don't understand why people get so upset that someone plays the game differently than they do. Why are you frustrated that somebody else doesn't try PBEM? For a guy who talks about who's open-minded and who isn't you aren't making yourself sound very open-minded. As far as "religions", I guess I've used the word sloppily in the past too to mean "strong preference", but logically there is an incorrect analogy here. PBEM won't get me to heaven, but a religion might. I'm also never going to claim that PBEM is heaven on earth (good sex has already claimed that spot), although it might be very enjoyable. If I ever get past landlubber 3rd class I might try PBEM. But in the meantime, let's remember that PBEM vs AI are preferences, while religions are about "Truth". We may not believe that any of them have the Truth, but that still doesn't make them simply a preference. Most religions tend to be about eternal consequences, and that's hardly a simple preference like eating chocolate or vanilla icecream. Claiming that you're open-minded because you don't believe somebody's religion sounds to them like saying a mathematician is being close-minded for not agreeing with you that 1+1=3. Insulting people with strong religious beliefs doesn't make you sound very open-minded. Quite the opposite. If you want to make a mathematician give up thinking that 1+1=2 then you probably need to demonstrate it using mathematics. Telling him he's close-minded won't go far. I personally don't care whether you play AI or PBEM, and I don't care if you believe any religion or none of them, but I do wish that people who claim to be open-minded would actually act that way. I also wish "fundamentalists", be they religious "fundamentalists" or any other sort, would also back off a bit.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 112
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 6:34:41 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Interesting idea-toggling back and forth. I'd never considered that...

I think my greatest disappointment with my findings of AI cheating isn't that the AI was cheating or the way it was cheating, but the fact that these cheats will limit my ability to play the game in a meaningful manner.

To be very honest with you, this is a balance thing that we are struggling with too. It is just my personal observations and preferences, from testing things, that led to the toggling thing.
quote:


It doesn't look like the AI gets supernumerary ships or 'made up' LCUs, so my only real chance of gaining victory is to sink large numbers of underescorted troopships and combatants or destroy LCUs in their entirety, to avoid them drawing replacements. While digitally drowning the little binary buggers does provide some satisfaction, it rings hollow.

Yes. Perhaps it does ring hollow. But the AI doesn't get extra ships, or 'made up' LCUs. All it gets is a more "fully fleshed" version of what actually exists, when set on 'hard' or 'harder'. Nothing "extra" magically appears. What you have is more 'magically' used.
quote:

The way to 'beat' the AI is different than one will 'beat' a human opponent. I had hoped that the path to victory would be somewhat similar. Now I see that that's not possible. Trying to 'out cheat' the AI isn't entertaining. That's my greatest disappointment.

Well, yes: playing/beating the AI will be fundamentally different from playing/beating a human opponent. Frankly pal, if we could have made the AI smarter, we would have done so at the base level.

Further, if we could have developed an AI that would do all the things everybody wants, we would not be doing this game. Rather, we would be enjoying our millions from government contracts, in the Virgins, Belearic Isles, SoPac, Chile, maybe the Ionian. Bottom line - it's just not going to happen in this particular set of decades. So what you see is what you get.
quote:

Thank you very much to all that have listened and commiserated. I appreciate the discussion and advice.

Andy Mac: I appreciate your efforts to make the AI *more* playable than it was with WiTP. It is-you've succeeded as far as I'm concerned. I hope you don't find my commentary here offensive or demeaning to your considerable efforts. You still have a lot of supporters out there that laud your efforts re: the AI. I can only imagine the time and labor that you've put into this beast...
We comiserate too. And no matter how bad he's dissed by the uninformed, AndyMac is a 'Prince' in our pantheon.


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Post #: 113
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 6:43:06 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

I really don't understand why people get so upset that someone plays the game differently than they do. Why are you frustrated that somebody else doesn't try PBEM? For a guy who talks about who's open-minded and who isn't you aren't making yourself sound very open-minded.



I didn't say I was "frustrated"..., I said that a discussion with someone who says he only wants to play one way without ever trying any other is a frustrating experiance..., and that I thought that was the major reason this "discussion" had continued for so many years.

My only objection to the "AI crowd" is that trying to design to placate them often causes problems for those attempting to play against a human opponant. Wish MATRIX had allowed the AE Team to design "AI-specific" and "PBEM-specific"
scenarios instead of a "one size fits all" compromise.

(in reply to Tomcat)
Post #: 114
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 6:49:28 PM   
Tomcat


Posts: 131
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Dallas
Status: offline
Mike, I agree with you. I wish we could clone the AE team. By the way, I hope I didn't offend you. I really have a lot of respect for some of you guys on this forum.

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Post #: 115
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 7:07:24 PM   
Max 86


Posts: 699
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline
Some have tried the PBEM experience and found it to be lacking. My personal experience with PBEM boils down to this: 5% satisfaction, 20% get cheated, 75% quit before the game is over. Not a lot of fun there IMO.

As for AI scripts, it goes back to Sun Zsu's teachings about knowing your enemy. Some of you play so often that you have learned everything about the AI down to the electron level. Some of us that don't get to play that often never memorizes the AI patterns and behaviour and still get some fun out of it. Even if you could spend all your time with your human opponent, following him around, learning his habits, understanding his decision making process; in time that human player will be no challenge either.

What I try to do is switch to other games for awhile. I personally love the long campaign type games (never play scenarios and won't buy a game unless there is a long campaign included) so I switch to COG for a few months, then maybe Making History for a few months, then FOF or whatever, and by the time I get back to the Pacific, I have forgotten some of the nuances of the AI that other more regular players have memorized. I get a lot of fun and satisfaction that way.

So, to each their own. It is important for some players to understand that not everyone gets to play for hours each and every day. Some may get one or two nights a week like me, maybe 5 hrs a week max. In this case the AI is just fine in most games if you don't play it to death.

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 116
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 7:41:19 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
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From: Decatur, GA, USA
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Thanks to the coders for Tweak 1 and double thanks for tweak 2 to come. The original set-up was sorta "borked" for the JFB - they had a legitimate complaint. It is not surprising that the tweak might tilt things too far the other way in the early game. A better challenge for those playing the Allies against the AI, though!

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 117
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 7:48:03 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
" Btw, I play in a CPX mode – mostly H2H, but with an open main menu so the umpire can turn on the AI and advance the game for a week or so of turns every now and then. We run into some of the same things, and normally don’t run the AI at anything over ‘historical’ difficulty. "


JWE, what do you mean by CPX mode, and that you use an umpire ? I am not familiar with this set up.

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Post #: 118
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 8:10:17 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
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Guys I never get offended by what folks say and I don't take the m personally.

A lot of folks time and effort went into the Ai not just me I just played with the tools the coders gave me.

Its interesting because I never played a single turn v the stock AI I was PBEM from the moment I got WITP and now I havent played a single tunr of PBEM v the AI although I have one en route for after patch 2 !!!!

I am in the PBEM crowd but I think I have a touch of the compulsive perfectionist in em as I wanted the AI to be as good as it could be to give you all the hardest possible game.

Re cheats I still dont want to comment to much not because I am defensive about them but because I still think an open discussion will spoil the game for some folks.

SPOILER


















SPOILER













SPOILER

What I will say is the following - the AI assists come in two broad camps - things required to make the game work from a mechanic point of view a good example of this is teleporting - ships in port (and they have to be disbanded in port) do on occasion teleport we try to limit it and unless you are using tracker software or peeking you will mostly never notice it. There is no AI code to move ships to the stage base (we tried it for a long time and the Ai ends up using assets for other jobs and getting itself tied up in knots) - Ships in TF's dont ever teleport

Other adjustments are there to allow the AI to use all the flexibility of the new system - in stock they had pre determined upgrade paths and limited aircraft types - we greatly expaqnded the subtypes and gave players a LOT more options as to the subtypes - this gives a problem for the AI

How do you tell the AI that it needs 4 different type of Oscar in production and that it only needs 1 sqn of one type BUT that Sqn is scripted to be the garrison of Java and the Allied player has invaded Java in 42 so even though the AI only has 1 Sqn of Oscar Iz in production that sqn is critical to the defence of Java - remember the AI does not rotate sqns, it does not think it does what I have told it so if Sqn A using a weird subtype of Oscar gets shredded on Java and the Ai isnt producing any more of that subtype what do you do the AI doesnt use PDU, it wont rotate the sqn we have no way of telling it to do that

A human player would rotate the Sqn out and bring in a new one but the AI cannot so its a choice Sqn A gets shredded and local air support is gone or Sqn A using type 1z gets a little production help so that the variant can stay in the fight as its pool is a little deeper.

Now obviously I am over simplifying bwecause I have some reaction scripts that trigger if certain actions happen but in principle you need to remember it DOESNT MATTER how may frams or pilots the AI gets because it cannot use them effectively compared to a player - giving them some help levels the playing field.

Because of the upgrade issue rather than being a moderate increase in capacity (on historic at least) it became blatant as a couple of key types with lots of sqns on map had many tiems the pool they should have but that will be fixed but be clear IMO the AI needs help to remain competative and thats the goal we set ourselves

We came at thsi to give you the best possible opponent. - The AI doesnt teleport TF's, it doesnt get combat bonuses, it has to ship resources back to the HI, it has to march LCU's at the same pace as everyone else, it mostly needs to produce the aircraft it uses.

It does get help in some things that a strategic level player would do that the Ai is not capable of and NO before anyone asks I am not going to list them so dont even bother asking - I am trying desperately not to ruin the game for anyone.

We came at this to give you the player the most competitive, sneakiest game we could if because of that its not for you all I can do is apologise.

Andy

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 119
RE: Very disappointed - 10/10/2009 8:15:41 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
Andy Mac, do you have any plans to do a AI full war scenario that has enhansed Allied capacity - a reversed ironman scenario?

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