Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The innate human need to complain is the bain of nearly everybody who creates for a living - game designers, preachers, writers, musicians, artists, etc. Complainers have no idea how destructive their complaints can be to morale.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankist

Been playing WitP forever. Have been greatly enjoying the first 3 days of my AE copy. And then... This thread totally took the wind out of my sales. I play the AI because that's what I like. Am now demoralized about the game and am setting it aside for awhile until I get re-inspired. Very sad.

Tankist,

Don't take it too hard. I think some of the major issues that I encountered were the result of playing on 'very hard' for some time. I think the game will be more manageable after patch II (soon) on historical settings of difficulty. I'll give it another crack then.

Stick with it. If the service and support exhibited by Matrix et. al. in WiTP is any indication, it will get better with a few iterations and tincture of time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Canorebel,

I appreciate your point of view and your typically gentlemanly and congenial way on the boards. I like your writing style in your AAR and enjoy your strategic mindset. Your tone is usually measured and refined. I follow most of your posts because of these traits.

Perhaps my initial post(s) were a bit caustic. In hindsight, I may have been hurting some of the Devs (particularly Andy Mac) feelings with my language and criticism.

But I think this forum is the place to express oneself. This forum is the place to talk these issues through and, if possible, derive satisfaction for Devs and customers / players alike. The absolute WORST thing, IMO, for a game like this is to fade into obscurity because 'new blood' has been chased off for voicing legitimate concerns. With rare exception, I do not consider this to be unthoughtful petty griping.

A devolution to fanboyism, glad handing and back slapping for delivering a work of perfection this should not be. Asking people with legitimate concerns about their gaming experience to STFU (albeit in genteel terms) is every bit as detrimental to the long-term well-being of a vibrant forum community.

Matrix Games and WiTP-AE benefits from an active forum community, complete with whiners, fanboys, volunteer stalwarts and lurkers. Anybody with a lick of sense should realize the valuable opinion of all stakeholders. There's a place here for all opinions and, where necessary, criticism and critique.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

Some of what everyone has been complaining about the ai cheating on normal level has been corrected for patch 2. No production cheats. No plane upgrade cheats. Reduced planning bonus (35). No more 1s and 2s af for bombers. Factory expansion has been curbed to more reasonable limits based entirely on % of need depending on plane type, also ai will stop production if pool has enough. Fixed bugs that appeared to be cheats, river crossing to name one. Ai cbt TFs now are checked for damage, no planes, no ammo and so forth and rtb if there is a problem.

Just so we are clear TFs do not teleport only ships disbanded can be moved to another friendly port if they meet the requirements. In order to make this less noticeable without disrupting the timing of the scripts we would have to write code to anticipate when a script might need ships and then move them there via some delay, I do not anticipate this being done for patch 2 as this can get a little complicated, perhaps patch 3. I play against the ai and knowing that it can move ships from one port to the other does not bother me at all. The way I see it if this had been a human he would have moved them to an advanced base a couple weeks prior to the offensive.

Been running a ai vs ai game on normal level and the Japanese ai is surprisingly doing ok.

Andy just saw your post and some of that has been fixed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

Some of what everyone has been complaining about the ai cheating on normal level has been corrected for patch 2. No production cheats. No plane upgrade cheats. Reduced planning bonus (35). No more 1s and 2s af for bombers. Factory expansion has been curbed to more reasonable limits based entirely on % of need depending on plane type, also ai will stop production if pool has enough. Fixed bugs that appeared to be cheats, river crossing to name one. Ai cbt TFs now are checked for damage, no planes, no ammo and so forth and rtb if there is a problem.

Just so we are clear TFs do not teleport only ships disbanded can be moved to another friendly port if they meet the requirements. In order to make this less noticeable without disrupting the timing of the scripts we would have to write code to anticipate when a script might need ships and then move them there via some delay, I do not anticipate this being done for patch 2 as this can get a little complicated, perhaps patch 3. I play against the ai and knowing that it can move ships from one port to the other does not bother me at all. The way I see it if this had been a human he would have moved them to an advanced base a couple weeks prior to the offensive.

Been running a ai vs ai game on normal level and the Japanese ai is surprisingly doing ok.

Andy just saw your post and some of that has been fixed.

Very nice BigJ62 and Andy Mac. Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The innate human need to complain is the bain of nearly everybody who creates for a living - game designers, preachers, writers, musicians, artists, etc. Complainers have no idea how destructive their complaints can be to morale.

Canoerebel, for myself and those compatriots I can speak for, I sincerely thank you for your kind words.

It reminds me much of the critiques of Patrick O’Brian, whose works display a staggering erudition on almost all aspects of 18th century life. But certain Amazon reviewers flush him down the toilet because his description of Boston in 1812 (200 years ago) is not specifically and exactly precise.

Oh, what a simple set of scrubs; what a pack of delectacious gonodynes; what hoofs; what baggage; what a rum lot of sea-lawyers brought aboard from the assizes, or out of the bilboes of the old Resolute.

Aye, there’s always them. Them as resents their salt pork for a lobscouse. Them as would rather speak idle than trip on the mizzen topsail futtocks. Them as is grum and chuff and have no tenaille.

Aye, we know them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Andy

Go take your well deserved break.
I came back to WITPAE as an AI opponent only player BECAUSE of the new IMPROVED AI and the more realistic resrictions e.g. air combat

It certainly was not for the increased micromanaging and the loss of computer controlled theaters

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Guys fortunately I dont take this stuff personally I am just unable to give you what you want without making the AI back to stock which is what you dont want although I find it hard to be 100% sure that you dont want the moron back. Basically rthere is a reason for what we have.

Every time you guys ask the question I get the question from those higher in the food chain than me can we do anything about X and more often than not the answer is Yes but the AI will be worse - we listen we look but sometimes things are the way they are and its a straight choice Cheat X helps the AI and is obvious if you peek can we tone it down hide it ? Answer yes but Ai will be minor/major/critical worse and typically yhe things that bug folks are int eh majopr critical camp.

Now I have beer and a poker tournament tonight so I will see you all later.

Pad A few specific responses


1. An AI that looks like it's playing by the same rules as the player (no more 4 engine bombers flying from level 1 or 2 bases, etc.) Teleporting AI task forces, add some random delay so the player doesn't see a ship/TF on one place on the map and than half way across the map on the next turn. I don't mind the AI getting bonuses just having it look like it's playing by the same rules as the player. Limit the load outs for carrier strikes, sometimes it seems AI carrier groups can bomb a location for weeks, (hitting Pearl Harbor of 14 days straight) These are the biggest issues I have with the AI.

a. Ai TF's do not ever teleport ships do sometimes but only if in port disbanded this is fundamental tot he AI change it and Ai will be materially worse
b/ Remove a cheat on carrier strikes and a lot of the randomness to the AI is gone - not going to get into technical detauils as to why that is by I guarantee jap Ai will be worse and USN AI will be unplayable late war the AI is a MORON it does not say TF A is low on strikes lets send it to replenish AND replace it with another TF for the duration that the incredibly vulnerable invasion TF is now uncovered its not possible to get the AI to think of consequences so this is the best of bad set of options.
c. Never seen PH for 14 days straight and have never coded a set of scripts to do that please send save of Ai bombing PH on Dec 21st
4. 4E from 1 and 2 is incredibly rare and only occurs under two circumstances if we stop it sortieing we also stop it moving and this will also materially worsen the Ai - it is a rare occurence that mostly happens when you over run an AI base and th egroup evacs - so my advice is to play through it

2. Sometime after patch2, some discussions/help/how too's in player designed AI scripting (example: how to get the AI to invade
Midway, and/or the Aleutians during a campaign and how to get the AI to defend (respond to an invasion of x base.). This way players can develop more historic and/or non-historic AI scripts over time.

There is an manual for the editor hasnt anyone read it ?

3. I want an AI that is some what random and dynamic, one that doesn't always do the same thing (big issue with WITP, the AI was so scripted it always did the same thing, at the same point in each campaign). Your idea of multiple scripts randomly selected at the start of a new campaign sounds like it will fit the bill. Maybe a AI script depo/library and how to randomly select scripts.

Um the AI that we released with has 13 seperate random scripts and players may add more up to 99 in another thread I pointed out that if you delete 7 - 12 subvariants you will lost all chance of the Ai exploiting attacks - its boring but can be done and the Ai will play a more defensive game

4. Some How to's with the editor on removing some of these restrictions,(reducing restricted commands, # of static units, high garrison levels, etc.) let the players play the way they want. I hope we get a AE version of Witpchk, for checking player made scenarios/campaigns.

There is an editor manual....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankist
I mean I just love this game but if the AI cheats, then I loose enthusiasm.

Tankist. The truth is that virtually every "AI" cheats..., o

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpazuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
After patch 2 I think I need a break I am going to play some PBEM and enjoy the game and stop reading these kinds of threads because I simply don't get it - I apologise to everyone that doesnt like what the Ai is or how it operates but I have no idea what to say any more

You do not need to apologize to anyone Andy.

You and others have done one heck of a job given the limitations of what you had to work with.

Anyone who has owned, played and followed the development of the game from the beginning knows only full well the differences between the original AI and what you and others have been able to develop it into for the single player crowd.

Take a well deserved break and know that your efforts have not been in vain!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The innate human need to complain is the bain of nearly everybody who creates for a living - game designers, preachers, writers, musicians, artists, etc. Complainers have no idea how destructive their complaints can be to morale.

Canoerebel, for myself and those compatriots I can speak for, I sincerely thank you for your kind words.

It reminds me much of the critiques of Patrick O’Brian, whose works display a staggering erudition on almost all aspects of 18th century life. But certain Amazon reviewers flush him down the toilet because his description of Boston in 1812 (200 years ago) is not specifically and exactly precise.

Oh, what a simple set of scrubs; what a pack of delectacious gonodynes; what hoofs; what baggage; what a rum lot of sea-lawyers brought aboard from the assizes, or out of the bilboes of the old Resolute.

Aye, there’s always them. Them as resents their salt pork for a lobscouse. Them as would rather speak idle than trip on the mizzen topsail futtocks. Them as is grum and chuff and have no tenaille.

Aye, we know them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpazuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
After patch 2 I think I need a break I am going to play some PBEM and enjoy the game and stop reading these kinds of threads because I simply don't get it - I apologise to everyone that doesnt like what the Ai is or how it operates but I have no idea what to say any more

You do not need to apologize to anyone Andy.

You and others have done one heck of a job given the limitations of what you had to work with.

Anyone who has owned, played and followed the development of the game from the beginning knows only full well the differences between the original AI and what you and others have been able to develop it into for the single player crowd.

Take a well deserved break and know that your efforts have not been in vain!

+100000000000...

Exactly what dpazuk said!!! Thanks a million Andy!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62
Ai cbt TFs now are checked for damage, no planes, no ammo and so forth and rtb if there is a problem.