Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Crude oil to Fuel consumption

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Crude oil to Fuel consumption Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 11:24:08 AM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		I am trying to make sense of the production system.
My usual complaint about a Gary Grigsby's game is that there is stuff that work under the hood, but is poorly, if at all, explained.

The manual states that PORTS imports Crude oil.
Crude Oil is storaged in OILS.
Crude oil is converted to fuel in a OILR with the help of CHEM factories.
That fuel is then distributed to Air Fields and OILS.


What is the connection?
Is 1 fuel point equal to 1 crude oil?
How many crude oil will be converted to Fuel per capacity of the OILR?
Does the amount of damage reduce the production of a OILR?
How much fuel does an air plane consume per take off?

Thank you in advance.
Post #: 1
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 11:29:11 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		wellllll

you got me

all I know for sure, is how the airfield fuel works

each plane has a fuel use number, and each time that plane refuels, it uses up that much fuel at the airbase

(so simple, a Spitfire Mk1, uses 1 fuel, each time it refuels, so a squadon of Spits in the BoBs need to take off and land a lot of times, to use up all of the fuel at a airfield)

twins and later models, may/will use up more fuel

_____________________________


(in reply to Derfel)
Post #: 2
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 2:35:40 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Will interceptors get grounded for lack of fuel? I've never played the LW side deep enough into the game to know. From my perspective I always saw plenty of interceptors in the air all the way until the end of the game. Old version of course.


Carlos

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 3
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 2:59:17 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		yes, they can, but it can be HARD to do

best is with bombing attacks, they tend to damage the fuel system on a base

but, it don't take much to refuel a plane

best was would be, to bomb the base early, and then force them to fly multi missions, by the end of the day, they will be hurting for what can take off

and yes, during tests, I was able to get RAF bases in the BoBs to run out and ground the planes on them

(it never worked right in the old game)

_____________________________


(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 4
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 4:12:26 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Seems like, by '45 the LW was really hurting for fuel and had planes grounded for it particularly after Bodenplatz. Shouldn't there be some kind of direct link between effectiveness of oil campaign and ability for LW to launch raids? Maybe what I've read overstates the case?


Carlos

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 5
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 4:31:28 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, again, it does

Oil and Chem, effect Fuel, Fuel makes (well) Fuel, then it goes into storage (?) and the airfields

you cut off of the flow of Oul/Fuel, you don't get enough Gas to fly

(read some of Swifts stuff, he loves trying to knock out the Oil system)

(OT, read a report about the Fuel system the Germans used, and how well it did, how much it made, but the brain, who wrote it, ended it by saying (and this is in the late 40's early 50's) that the best year, the Germans had at making fuel, it would last the U.S. about 4 days)

_____________________________


(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 6
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 6:10:40 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

Seems like, by '45 the LW was really hurting for fuel and had planes grounded for it particularly after Bodenplatz. Shouldn't there be some kind of direct link between effectiveness of oil campaign and ability for LW to launch raids? Maybe what I've read overstates the case?


What you read was correct.  In fact, when the Allies started the Oil Offensive in May 1944 the effects were immediate in many aspects - training and bomber ops were chopped.  They lived off their reserves during the summer to keep the fighters flying, but by September-October everything was curtailed unless the situation was serious.  Recon flights and close air support was rare.  The bomber fleet was literally scrapped, and the fighter units could only fly when they could scrounge up enough fuel.  There are more than a few photos of planes, even Me 262's being pulled around airfields with oxen or horses to save fuel.

In the old USAAF game destroying oil, chem and fuel had a major impact on whether units could train and how many planes could fly.  I'm sure the effects are similar in BTR, but how many games get that far to really be able to fully understand the effects & results?  

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 7
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 10:19:24 PM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		Interesting, so how will Fuel reduce training or will it only reduce the number of pilots or the Experience of pilots?

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 8
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/1/2009 11:01:31 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline 		Just for sh*ts and grins, the old USAAF document reads:

11.10 Experience
----------------
Fighter groups add 1 experience point each time they participate in air-to-air
combat.  Groups add 1 or 2 experience points each time they bomb a target.
Groups with experience less than 50 will automatically gain 1 experience per
turn.  However if the German fuel reserve is less than 100, their gruppes will
not receive this automatic experience gain.  Groups with experience less than
71 gain experience for just flying:
 
           CURRENT          EXPERIENCE
          EXPERIENCE          GAINED
           51-70                1
           31-50                2
            0-30                3
 
Groups with experience greater than 90 lose experience for just flying:
 
           CURRENT          EXPERIENCE
          EXPERIENCE          LOST
           91-110               1
          111-130               2
            131+                3
 
Groups will lose experience when replacements are added.  USAAF replacement
crews will have experience equal to 2/3 of the experience rating of the group
they are joining.  Luftwaffe replacements will have experience equal to zero.

Now obviously this does not apply to BTR since there are individual pilots rather than just an average per formation, but I have noticed experience levels of very poor pilots increasing a point every once in a while.  And if you check the weapon & equipment data there is much commonality between the two programs - which leads me to believe that there commonality (just as one can identify the roots of WitP in the old games Carrier Strike and War in the South Pacific.)  This might suggest there is also a master fuel reserve level which affects German training.  All speculation of course.      From what Harley has mentioned elsewhere, even he cannot figure out everything going on.  Obviously little or no annotation to the code, which means he might not be able to explain (and also why he choose NOT to explain!)

(in reply to Derfel)
Post #: 9
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 12:05:46 AM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		Hah! funny guy. Sometimes I don't know because it wasn't broken, so I didn't need to look into it.

The leadership of the commander has a direct relationship to the unit's ability to continue training new pilots. As an observation of the game rather than the code, pilots within a unit will generally end up with the same XP, if there are no other factors. I don't recall if this is the average of all pilots being used to "train" the new guy, or the commander leadership bringing all pilots up to the same level then stopping...




_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 10
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 7:04:53 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

Hah! funny guy. Sometimes I don't know because it wasn't broken, so I didn't need to look into it.

The leadership of the commander has a direct relationship to the unit's ability to continue training new pilots. As an observation of the game rather than the code, pilots within a unit will generally end up with the same XP, if there are no other factors. I don't recall if this is the average of all pilots being used to "train" the new guy, or the commander leadership bringing all pilots up to the same level then stopping...





I know you are the "man", but my observations was the leadership of the commander. But, a "poor" commander did not lessen a unit's experience, so the average level of all pilots, times the square root of the number of "engaged combat missions survived", and the summation of the average gallons of fuel in the tanks when landing, determines how much fluid the pilot consummed during the night resulting in a deep sleep, where upon the experience fairy would leave an extra point under the pillow.

TS

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 11
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 7:18:11 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

wellllll

you got me

all I know for sure, is how the airfield fuel works

each plane has a fuel use number, and each time that plane refuels, it uses up that much fuel at the airbase

(so simple, a Spitfire Mk1, uses 1 fuel, each time it refuels, so a squadon of Spits in the BoBs need to take off and land a lot of times, to use up all of the fuel at a airfield)

twins and later models, may/will use up more fuel

HS;

So, then at night the airfield will receive a new alotment of fuel during the repair phase. I wonder if each airfield get fuel, up to a limit, or if an airfield gets an amount based on the number of units/planes stationed there.

Also, is there a way to disrupt the transportation of fuel to the airfield -- ie, bombing railyards, ports?


TS

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 12
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 7:33:04 AM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

HS;

So, then at night the airfield will receive a new alotment of fuel during the repair phase. I wonder if each airfield get fuel, up to a limit, or if an airfield gets an amount based on the number of units/planes stationed there.

Also, is there a way to disrupt the transportation of fuel to the airfield -- ie, bombing railyards, ports?


TS



Yes, new fuel at night, no only occupied airfields, yes there's a limit. I don't recall if it's unit based or just activity based.

You absolutley can disrupt fuel movements at the source, the storage and the destination.

_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to TechSgt)
Post #: 13
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 1:25:00 PM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		Which bring us back to my Second statement:

My usual complaint about a Gary Grigsby's game is that there is stuff that work under the hood, but is poorly, if at all, explained.

So HOW will interuption reduce the flow of Fuel to an airfield? By percentage or the "Sudden Death" number when damage reaches 50 percent?

My gripe with the game is that you do not know if a think Work As Designed (WAD) as it is NOT explained HOW it will work. So to sum my knowledge up:

PORTS import Crude oil.
Crude oil is transported to OILS via Railroads?
Crude Oil is storaged in OILS.
Crude Oil is transportet to OILR via Railroads?
Crude oil is converted to fuel in a OILR with the help of CHEM factories.
That fuel is then distributed to Air Fields and OILS via Railyards.
Fuel gets consumed by airplanes taking off, bombing of airfields and for training of replacement pilots.


We do not know how much Crude oil get converted in an OILR.
We do not know how the CHEM factory work.
We do not know how much Fuel will be distributed to Air fields.
We do not know how much fuel an air plane consume.

What we do know is that we are looking at a black box, where Magic rules.

(in reply to harley)
Post #: 14
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 1:51:03 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		yea but, would you/should you know ?

you got it pretty close to what they would know back then, on either side

Pips Priller wouldn't know that 10 units of Crude, transported by rail to a Chem plant next to a OilR will give him 5 units of fuel, but it may take 7 days for it to be trained in, with in 15-20 days, if the rails are smashed and trucks have to be used ?

(to be honest, I don't know what it is either)

I just know that I should attack it, or that I need to defend it

not trying to be smart, but not every formula needs to be known

really, it is kind of like the Ball Bearing idea, even with all the work and study and spying and what not, the Allies didn't know, that the Germans would "force" the Swiss to hand over most of there production, or that after all of the shifting and moveing and hiding of plants, and getting all they could from the outside, that the Germans would start finding wharehouses that they didn't even know about, filled to the roof with Ball bearings

(OT, but the U.S. is kind of like that, they got more Cannonballs then they will ever need, towards the end of the 1776 war, the U.S. knew they were going to need as many as they could get, and they were not getting enough as it was, so they offered a opened ended contract, to a company to make cannonballs, when the war ended, the contract was still good, and hey, we going to need them someday any way, so the kept it a open contract, last I heard, that company still is making cannonballs, and we are still storing them)

_____________________________


(in reply to Derfel)
Post #: 15
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 2:35:33 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

The leadership of the commander has a direct relationship to the unit's ability to continue training new pilots. As an observation of the game rather than the code, pilots within a unit will generally end up with the same XP, if there are no other factors.


Okay, that's good to know.  But what about the original question about fuel impacting training.  I think this is something the German player (wearing the many hats he does) would know in real life.  The decision to cut fuel for training was made at RLM.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 16
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 2:51:05 PM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		sorry, wasn't paying attention to the topic.

If you can get fuel to the critical stage then there is a direct affect on replacement pilot experience. I would need more time to look up the effect on existing pilots.


_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 17
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 2:51:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		again, yea but...

training was Furbar way before the Oil Campaign started

and even in 1940 when it was good, the fighter units refused to fly with the new pilots, they had to be sent out for in house training, before they could/would be assigned to a combat unit for duty (they were assigned to a unit, and then assigned to the training staffel)

but, in the long run, would have to say, if your Oil/Fuel is being hurt bad, it is too late to be worried about training

_____________________________


(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 18
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 3:30:44 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

again, yea but...
training was Furbar way before the Oil Campaign started
and even in 1940 when it was good, the fighter units refused to fly with the new pilots, they had to be sent out for in house training, before they could/would be assigned to a combat unit for duty (they were assigned to a unit, and then assigned to the training staffel)
but, in the long run, would have to say, if your Oil/Fuel is being hurt bad, it is too late to be worried about training


All true.  But if there is an effect in the program (like in USAAF), it would be good to know.  Or if there is no fuel effect on training for the reasons you state, and all the "Nachwuts" (German nickname for new untrained pilots) will have an experience level of 0, 10, 20 or whatever, that too would be good information to know.  And something the real world commanders would have knowledge of also.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 19
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/2/2009 4:12:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		again, yea but...

you already know, your replacements are not going to be as good as what you got to start with (out side of late "real" pilots coming in)

in the old game, you did have an effect, of you get 10 pilots this turn, 2 are going to be 99, and 8 are going to be 0, that shouldn't happen any more (but you can still get some pretty good AI pilots, which is not what I wanted)

but overall, would say, your Ax pilots are not going to be as good in 44 as they are in 43 (AI replacement) and the ones you get in 45, are not going to be as good as what you get in 44, with out, counting in factors that may make changes to the exp levels you may get (to the good, or to the bad)

not trying to be smart, or double talk, there is a lot of the inside workings of the game, that I do not know, that the testers don't know, when we started, it was decided, that we didn't want to know, everything, I still want to be able to play the game, and I still do play it

_____________________________


(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 20
RE: Crude oil to Fuel consumption - 11/3/2009 6:02:04 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

again, yea but...

...

not trying to be smart, or double talk, there is a lot of the inside workings of the game, that I do not know, that the testers don't know, when we started, it was decided, that we didn't want to know, everything, I still want to be able to play the game, and I still do play it.


HS;

Thank you!

I personally don't want to know exact numbers either.
Back in my programer days, nothing ruined a game for me more than "knowing-the-numbers".
I certainly "enjoy" trying to figure out the numbers, put my "best-guess" into play and see what happens.

I've discovered with TOH -- now BtR -- what worked during WWII seems to work in BtR, and since BoB is now the same engine, I'm betting it does too.

TS

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 21
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Crude oil to Fuel consumption Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.203