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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Decisive Battles: Korsun Pocket >> Upcoming Kosun Pocket

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Upcoming Kosun Pocket - 6/23/2002 8:52:56 AM

rickklahorst

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I had a recommendation for Matrix and SSG regarding the scheduled sequel to Ardennes which is Korsun Pocket.
I told them that I think that instead of doing the game on the Korsun Pocket, it would be better to choose a campaign which has yet to be done. There are many campaigns that would be much more interesting to do. The Korsun campaign is neat but it kind of one sided with regard to strength of forces. One side is pretty much on the defensive trying to stave off disaster while the other is trying to demolish his opponent with overwelming tank, infantry, and air/artillery support. Besides this, Mr Tiller at HPS Simulations just published a game on this very subject.
Would it not be better to make the game on a campaign like Anzio for example. You WWII buffs out there probably already know that the Anzio campaign in Italy was by no means a cakewalk for the Allies. Both sides had armoured units, relatively equal amounts of men and artillery, as well as air support. So both sides could go on the offensive, as did really happen, with not one side always defending himself. Also all sides had unique special units. For example, the US had several Ranger battalions, and the Brits had their Commando units. This would be a much more intense and fun scenario to play that has never been done before. Also the idea of having up to three players could be done.
One having the Americans, one having the British, and the other having the Germans. At least thats what I think.
I am really interested to find out if anyone else out there shares my views?

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- 6/24/2002 2:33:45 PM

Muzrub

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[QUOTE]At least thats what I think. [/QUOTE]

Indeed I agree.

But I would also like to see a good Stalingrad game based on this games system- or Leningrad, the battle around Smolensk in '41, encirclement at Kiev '41, Moscow etc etc and other battles.

Of course Stalingrad has been covered many times- but this games system would really improve upon anything else that has been done.
To tell the truth- I would like to see an expanded version for a Russian campaign- including a smaller scenarios such as the fin-russo conflict.

How about WW1?

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Re: Upcoming Kosun Pocket - 6/25/2002 2:34:14 PM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rickklahorst
[B]I had a recommendation for Matrix and SSG regarding the scheduled sequel to Ardennes which is Korsun Pocket.
I told them that I think that instead of doing the game on the Korsun Pocket, it would be better to choose a campaign which has yet to be done. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi

My first thought when hearing about this product was exactly what you say here. Why Korsun? HPS just released it own Korsun game (which I bought and it sucked so no more HPS for me). What I did not know is that this product has been in development for quite some time so to scrap it would be very stupid indeed. I'm looking forward to this product especially playing the Germans because I love to defend against attacking forces. You are however right that there is many battles to choose from if they decide to continue this great game concept.
Dan

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- 6/25/2002 11:38:17 PM

David Heath

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Hi Guys

We had a choice to do Korsun Pocket or Normandy. We went with Korsun Pocket because it has never been done (at that time) and Normandy has. Also this great game system has not been to the Eastern Front yet.

When HPS came out with John Tiller's Korsun Pocket SSG had already placed a lot of time and effort into the game to back out. I have played HPS version and its very different and I found it very enjoyable. I am sure that both games will do very well.

SSG and Matrix plan to do more battles if enough games are sold and wargamers want more.

David

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Post #: 4

- 6/26/2002 12:08:30 AM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Heath
[B]Hi Guys

SSG and Matrix plan to do more battles if enough games are sold and wargamers want more.

David [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi

Lets hope that it sells. I bought TAO and then downloaded TAO2 so I know this will be a great game. Much more user friendly and much better graphics than HPS's Korsun ( Perhaps that is a better description than just "it sucked" in my previous post) . Will do my fair share of supporting this possible series of games by buying a copy when it is released. This fall and winter promises to be a great time for wargamers thanks to Matrix and its upcoming releases. Thank you!
Dan

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Post #: 5

- 6/27/2002 12:01:56 AM

Peter Fisla

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Actually KP has been in development since the original TAO came out. I know that for sure because I have seen the very early source code. Of course KP now is a bit different then it originally was, rules and graphics.

Peter

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Post #: 6

ssg+matrix korsun pocket - 6/27/2002 6:33:52 AM

rickklahorst

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Many thanks to all who found the time to respond to my original message. I just wanted to say that I plan on buying Korsun Pocket eventhough I think Anzio would have been a little better subject for the game system. You know us wargamers, we're probably the smallest yet most loyal group of pc gamers out there. Well lets all hope that Korsun Pocket does really well so that maybe in the future SSG and Matrix will consider one for the Anzio campaign. I'm probably partial to it anyway as my late dad fought in that campaign and as a young boy it made a strong impression on me when he said "the crosses in the cemetary at Anzio went as far as you could see".
Again thanks to everyone who responded to me.

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- 6/30/2002 10:15:14 PM

Duncan Maggs

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Anzio is a good subject for the new TAO3 game. What appears to have been missed in the discussion (correct me if I am wrong) is that this game is likely to feature an editor. Players will be able to create their own scenarios with research. If these player-created scenarios are accurate and playable they will be widely distributed and become part of the game.

Korsun Pocket from HPS should not be compared with the SSG game- I have said this on the Blitz Classic Wargames message board. It is not a direct competitor to TAO3 because it models the battle on a different scale (tactical/grand tactical?) and not operational. I have the HPS game and while I would not play it in preference to TAO2 (or 3 when it appears) it has its merits. Its appeal is more to those gamers who favour tactical encounters and have a lot of time to complete their turns. To use board wargaming terminology (slang) TAO2 is more of a "beer and pretzels" game (albeit wonderfully put together and researched) while HPS Korsun is more like a "monster" which requires much time to be devoted to it in order for it to be played correctly.

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- 7/12/2002 1:17:05 AM

Peter Fisla

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Duncan Maggs,

The TAO3 editor will be very detailed, you will be even able to provide your own tile sets for terrain. You should be able to make a good quality Anzio scenario yourself.

Peter

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Post #: 9

- 7/13/2002 7:35:11 PM

kevsharr

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One question-will it run on XP?

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- 7/13/2002 7:42:38 PM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kevsharr
[B]One question-will it run on XP? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi kevsharr

According to the official Korsun Pocket website here at Matrix it will run on XP.

Dan

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I'm confused here... - 7/31/2002 6:32:06 AM

KG Erwin

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John Tiller's HPS simulations just released their "Korsun 44" addition to Panzer Campaigns. Do I detect some turf battling going on here, or am I reading this the wrong way?

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Post #: 12

- 7/31/2002 7:06:07 AM

David Heath

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John Tiller game been out for a while and there is no turf battle going on. These games are from different points of view and worth trying if you love the Eastern Front.

David

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Post #: 13

Response... - 7/31/2002 8:30:14 PM

Erik Rutins

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Strictly a case of parallel development without communication. Look at it this way, if you have an interest in the Eastern Front, the Korsun pocket is a great battle. If one game came out this year and another in 2012, you'd likely buy both. As it stands they're both coming out this year (most likely, anyway) and they will still be most probably the only Korsun Pocket games in the next ten years. This simply isn't a heavily covered battle, just our luck that it gets covered twice in the same year. :)

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 14

Multiple attacks - 8/1/2002 12:34:18 PM

leaderx

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The ever present theme of the modifications chosen for late TAO2 versions in regards to multiple attacks surfaced up as I was discussing a game I'm playing with a fellow Blitz veteran. Is Roger going to keep the same rules/interface in TAO3? Current rule being : A unit which suffers a step loss when attacked maitains the same defensive strength throughout the turn. I remember Roger explained in the old TAO2 Q & A page at TheBlitz (not up anymore) that he had purposely done this change like that units are not so "easy" to kill on multiple attacks. The old system (which I can't remember if it was implemented only in TAO or until TAO2.0.0) was the logical : if a unit takes a step loss the defensive value immediately goes down to that assigned for the number of remaining steps. First of all, very few players have the skill level to make multiple attacks effectively in the first place, and even if one has the skill level it's not easy to kill units, furthermore in a game of evenly matched players it's doubtful such a situation would arise, so why do we need this "attacker's handicap"? This rule makes little sense in TAO2 since the attacker (German in most scens) is in a disadvantage in all the major scens. It's already VERY difficult for the German to breakthrough and kill units when a proper defense has been mounted, having the units' defensive value pinned at a constant the whole turn makes those American infantry units close to impossible to destroy (three 4-1 or 5-1 attacks against a 15 defense value unit..assuming you don't get the 1/6 chance of failure to inflict a step loss or an R roll). On the other hand for the American, the static defense value makes no difference. A concentrated American force will easily decimate those weak German infantry units regardless of whether the defensive value remains static or declines with successive attacks and step losses. Clearly this rule only puts the German at a disadvantage, given the American will be less likely to use units through this mode of attacks meanwhile it will have a negligible effect during American counterattacks. OK, to review the question just in case no one understood what I'm talking about. Do units in TAO3 reflect strength losses immediately after being attacked or after turns as in TAO2.4.0?

I saw 4 step units in the screenshots that have been posted, it gave me hope perhaps that was the way Roger was envisioning addressing this issue. Taking important units up to 4 steps, but reapplying a decline in strength with each step loss, this would make the unit hard to destroy, but at least maintain realism and balance.

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Minor mistake - 8/1/2002 12:39:20 PM

leaderx

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Tiny mistake, at the end of the big paragraph. Posted before proofreading by accident.

"given the American will be less likely to use units through this mode of attacks "

Should read

"given the American will be less likely to lose units through this mode of attacks "

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- 8/1/2002 3:45:37 PM

Fred98

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On the bottom right corner of your post is a button labeled "edit".

You can use this to edit your own posts.

I am loking forward to this game.

And I agree that there should be no disadvantage in making multiple attacks.

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Post #: 17

- 8/1/2002 10:15:30 PM

Peter Fisla

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It's pure coincidence that HPS came out with Korsun 44 when Roger is working on TAO3 KP. I met Roger here in Toronto in 1998 and we talked about game development, TAO and my editor for TAO. Roger showed me at the time that he was already working on KP game with TAO engine but SSG publisher didn't want to publish another TAO wargame. I know because I still have the very early build cd. From what I know from Roger the work on KP started around the time of original TAO development so as you can see it's been planned for a long time.

Peter

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Post #: 18