RE: Air ASW not working?

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 2:57:47 PM

Sardaukar
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Hmmm...so basically, I should just stand down all my air ASW, since results would be exactly same, flying or not. Minus less ops losses.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 3:30:02 PM

jwilkerson
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Hmmm...so basically, I should just stand down all my air ASW, since results would be exactly same, flying or not. Minus less ops losses.

Oh I definitely think not. Even just "seeing" the enemy submarines makes a big difference - both in terms of whether they attack and in whether you can attack them.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 3:36:41 PM

Sardaukar
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Hmmm...so basically, I should just stand down all my air ASW, since results would be exactly same, flying or not. Minus less ops losses.

Oh I definitely think not. Even just "seeing" the enemy submarines makes a big difference - both in terms of whether they attack and in whether you can attack them.

That I can do with naval search...and see wider area too. Isn't whole point of ASW be Anti-Submarine WARFARE? If Air ASW does not sink any subs (or at least damage seriously), whole mission is basically useless compared to Naval Search. Which brings us back to WitP, where ASW was also useless compared to Naval Search. Except now Naval Search is basically useless vs. subs too.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 11/25/2009 3:42:48 PM >

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 3:40:54 PM

jwilkerson
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Yup that is true. The differences have been noted by Nik - Air ASW mission will give you increased chance of attacks with a decrease in range.

We actually have a house against air ASW missions in our 2x2 game (me, Nik, Rob, Tony) because we thought they were too powerful!!!

So I am using Naval Search exclusively in our game. Same with surface ASW missions - house rule prevents. These house rules are time based on are relaxed on Jan 1944.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 3:45:32 PM

Sardaukar
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Bit annoying, since IJN in game is using subs ahistorically (be it AI or human). But I cannot counter it with Atlantic-style Air ASW, which was lethal against subs.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 3:58:57 PM

jwilkerson
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Our goal is that by 1944 the "PBYs are really P3 Orions" will come back more like it was in stock - not all the way hopefully - but at least partially. But in 1942, for instance - aerial ASW in the Pacific will be more historical. In stock, and in AE prior to patch 01, neither side's submarines could operate under enemy air - neither sides submarines could "act like submarines". Yes, it is a change to allow them to be able to do so, but we think on balance it is a good one. I've had to develop new tactics, such as, greater use of PB (and other small craft) in ports and near ports to help supplement the search in the hexes I must traverse. Also I keep many units on Naval Search (our house rules allow the Naval Search mission) and this prevents most losses but not all. The submarines can still get an attack in occasionally, and this is what we want. We think patch 02 will further improve things and maybe even obviate our need for our current house rules. That is the goal anyway.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 8:16:58 PM

Jim D Burns
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
But I cannot counter it with Atlantic-style Air ASW, which was lethal against subs.

But there’s a big difference. In the Atlantic, German U-boats prowled a very narrow (when compared to the open and vast Pacific) shipping lane and formed large packs of subs when getting ready to attack allied convoys. But even then, allied ASW efforts were spotty at best until they finally broke the enigma code.

After that, many/most of the German sub refueling and support vessels were tracked down and sunk. Wolfpack rendezvous points were ambushed by escort carrier anti-sub planes and German sub losses in the Atlantic began to mount significantly. It was the ability to go on the offense against the Atlantic subs that allowed so many to be sunk after enigma was broken.

The Japanese were never so organized with their subs, so the allies never had much luck in setting up offensive Jeep carrier ambushes like they did against the Germans. They did set up a few sub vs. sub ambushes when the code breakers learned of a sub transiting an area.

I was quite surprised at how many Japanese subs were lost to allied subs in the list I linked above, I’d guess it was close to the same number of subs allied air managed to destroy, if not more.

In original WitP and CHS, subs were treated more like ships than subs and were far too easy to kill. Many players have grown accustomed to the reliable ability those games gave them to counter the sub threat.

I remember in one game, I had about 20 subs defending around Darwin in anticipation of attacking a possible invasion fleet. When the KB came calling to smash the airfield, it starting sinking 2 or 3 subs and damaging several more each turn. I actually plotted my surviving subs to flee from KB.

That’s NOT how subs should be treated in an historical game about the Pacific war. There were no reliable anti-sub systems during the war and there shouldn’t be in game either. Both sides should fear subs at all times when their carriers are in dangerous waters, sweeping the area clean of subs would be a-historical.

Basically your land based air search is more of an early warning system. Once they spot a sub, you should vector surface ASW assets to the area to prosecute the contact.

Jim

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 8:42:15 PM

jwilkerson
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Right, I first posted on this forum due to inability (in WITP) to come close to producing the historical USN submarine camapgin. In stock, if USN submarines operated in the home island area - they were toast.

As I gravitated to playing Japan in PBEM (never could find any Japanese opponents) my opponents were continually having issues reproducing the historical USN submarine campaign.

In one game, we kept adding more and more house rules, no Air ASW missions period, no Naval Search missions with percent over 30%, no ASW task forces, etc. Regardless of the house rules, the USN submarines were still too vulnerable to operate in the Japanese Home Islands, even in 1944.

So, yes we are trying to tone down the ASW from stock levels - and it will require adjusting one's tactics - and that applies to me as well. In my 2x2 game with Nik, Tony and Rob, as Japanese, I've had to use a number of new tactics to try to protect my ports. USN submarines were "camping" in the ports and torpedoing ships left and right. But having standing surface TFs in the hexes and naval search over the hex, seems to balance things out. The submarines can get hits occasionally, but can't massacre the ships while sitting in the ports. Patch 02 will probably make "port camping" more difficult, as this tactic aggrevates some players, but submarines should be able to operate in the enemy backwaters, it was certainly done historically and we are trying to make that possible.

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 8:51:10 PM

Walloc
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I've had to use a number of new tactics to try to protect my ports. USN submarines were "camping" in the ports and torpedoing ships left and right. But having standing surface TFs in the hexes and naval search over the hex, seems to balance things out. The submarines can get hits occasionally, but can't massacre the ships while sitting in the ports. Patch 02 will probably make "port camping" more difficult, as this tactic aggrevates some players, but submarines should be able to operate in the enemy backwaters, it was certainly done historically and we are trying to make that possible.

Playing devils advocate. I understand what ur trying to do and not saying the general assertion is wrong. On the other hand what will imaginative japanease players then try to do.
Wont we just then see alot of "port jumping". Sailing from one port to the next port each turn/phase possibly even protected with mines. Removing any chance of USN sub attack chances all together. Cancelling out the initial intend to make the USN subs "more powefull".

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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RE: Air ASW not working? - 11/25/2009 8:57:28 PM

Jim D Burns
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Patch 02 will probably make "port camping" more difficult, as this tactic aggrevates some players,

I think ports should get their own search roll each turn to try and find subs in their hex. There are a lot of additional smaller assets around ports that would greatly increase the chance to detect subs within 20-40 nm of the port that aren’t modeled in game, that could easily justify an additional automatic detection roll each turn. The larger the port facility the better the detection chance should be.

Jim

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