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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 11:17:40 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the aircraft situation for the Allies on turn 16 round 2:




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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 11:45:48 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hex 65,20 has a problemo. I have two infantry units adjacent to a German broken bridge hex and neither one of them can attack. So there's no way to reclaim the hex except for maybe arty / air bombardment and that would take forever, especially if the German dude keeps replacing the attacked unit. ???

EDIT: hex 64,26 has the same problemo.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/14/2009 11:51:37 AM >

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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 4:58:09 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

I have two infantry units adjacent to a German broken bridge hex and neither one of them can attack.


They are Infantry units, but they are not 'foot' movement units. The US Infantry Divisions are organized into three Regimental Combat Teams. Typically two RCT's are motorized/mixed, and one RCT is foot movement. You can tell by the icon.




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Post #: 63
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 5:07:11 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Turn 16: there was very little movement relatively speaking.  The Allies made a boat load of attacks
this turn and gained about 1.3 hexes so it appears that this game has entered the grind phase.  The German
fighters stayed on the ground this turn to rest, refuel, and refit.  The Allied bombers concentrated on the
German arty and each attack destroyed about 2.5 tubes so it will be a long process to destroy them that way.
The Allies are running into hexes that can't be attacked even by infantry and that is frustrating to say the
least.  XXX corps has units that are still in garrison mode and can't be used.  All the arty on both sides is
making ground gaining a really slow process for both sides.  Now I know why there are 100 turns to this
scenario.  Turn 16's moves map can be found at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1y2mnmzolmn


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Post #: 64
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 5:08:15 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
They are Infantry units, but they are not 'foot' movement units.


Oh. Right. It's been a long night can you tell. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Post #: 65
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 5:26:44 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

XXX corps has units that are still in garrison mode and can't be used.


Each of the XXX Corps divisions is tied to a Meuse crossing. If the Germans threaten the crossing, the defending division will be released.

I've scrapped all this in the current revision. This means that in the new version, most of XXX Corps will be available (once triggered) for use anywhere. This isn't really historic, but what else can be done? House Rule ? So far what I've got is XXX Corps is released if the Germans advance into the Weert/Sittard area (at the north part of the map), or if German units approach to within a few hexes of the Meuse anywhere from Maastricht to Charleroi.

I take pains on this matter for two reasons. First is the fact that Monty did not want XXX Corps moving south of the Meuse for any reason (51st Inf and 29th Arm did move a little east of the Dinant position). Second is the idea that in the scenario, just as the Germans are gaining a breakthrough at Bastogne, XXX Corps shows up to stop them. This could happen anywhere on the map, and it doesn't seem appropriate.

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Post #: 66
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 9:32:30 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey you guys:

I just discovered that even if you break up one of those engineer units the engineering capability is still great. I wish I had known that at the beginning of the game....I would have broken up all those bad boys and had many many more capable engineer units. Cool.




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Post #: 67
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/14/2009 11:21:19 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		In turn 17 I gained a hex !   But so did Patrick, so it's a wash.  Um........the combats are so un-bloody that unless you get a unit surrounded it's sorta hard to really destroy it I've discovered.  Patrick is going to destroy my small units in the far north before I can get some more units up there.  He's creaping closer and closer to Bastone and reinforcements aren't going to get there in time either.  But maybe I can bust some bridges and slow him down some.  It's just a thought.  You can find the turn 17 moves map at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nzy3vhecqfm

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Post #: 68
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/15/2009 6:10:29 AM   
Abnormalmind


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End of Axis 18: Bastogne Sector

Since the last time the Axis made this post, certain new development occurred. High command ordered the 2nd SS, 17th SS, and 2nd Panzer to continue pressing towards Bastogne supported by the 277 Volksgrenadier Div, and the 4th and 7th FJDs.

The red area to the east is a large pocket of fortified Americans. Their days are numbered. The US supply lines appears cut and the savior bridge blown, but not by me.

The 9th and 12th SS were pulls off the line and sent back to reconstitute. It's take them a while. They got their mouth smashed hard leading the assault towards Bastogne.

< Message edited by Abnormalmind -- 12/15/2009 6:18:29 AM >

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Post #: 69
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/15/2009 10:03:24 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I may be premature and I'm not sure but I'm thinking the tide may have turned.  I succeeded in pushing back the Axis horde in several spots.  Those planes in Combat Support are working overtime and really making a difference.  Maybe it's because Patrick pulled some Panzers off the front lines or something but I'm seeing smaller Axis units on the front lines facing me.  He is still adjacent to Bastone but I'm thiniking I can possibly hold on to it at least for another turn, maybe two.  I got some more reinforcements and they should start showing up at the front lines in a turn or two so we'll see what happens then.  Turn 18's moves map can be found at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?mwmg2lzgjzg

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Post #: 70
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 4:37:00 AM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Playing the AI right now. So far I'm not impressed. The AI is bypassing all the blown bridges.

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Post #: 71
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 7:35:11 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Patrick and I have agreed to cease this game as "not fun anymore" and start another...this time with me as the Axis and he as the Allies. Plus we've come up with some house rules that make sense to me.

House rules:
(1) Aircraft can only be used in the CS role or to attack bridges and airfields. No direct attacks on enemy arty or ground units.
(2) Arty can only be used in "T" or "L" mode to assist in combats "normally". No direct attacks on enemy arty or ground units ( or planes ).
(3) No unit can move onto a bridge that was repaired that turn.
(4) Whenever a mechanized ( or motorized unit I suppose ) finds itself on a broken bridge for any reason it must be moved off of it as soon as possible.

The turns in August Fog are 1/2 days and it would probably take engineers about that long to repair a bridge, I'm thinking...so that rule makes sense to me.

I've put together an attack plan to depict what I intend to do, pending Steve's permission of course, and I'll post it here but not embed it in my post since it's top secret to Patrick. You know what to do if you want to see it but please remember it's classified to Patrick until it's intel is no longer fresh. Say around turn, oh I don't know, turn 50 or so. It will probably take that long for me to get into position. LOL. *Patrick* I'll let you know when it's no longer classified to you.

So um........I'm going to use the honor system on you guys and hope you won't let the cat out of the bag by something you guys might post here. Deal?

EDIT: The intel is no longer fresh so I'm embedding it in my post so everybody can see it.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/19/2009 1:25:58 AM >

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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 8:55:54 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cesteman

Playing the AI right now. So far I'm not impressed. The AI is bypassing all the blown bridges.


Excellent! Which side are you? What do you mean the AI is bypassing blow bridges? How are the blown bridges being bypassed?

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Post #: 73
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 9:32:47 AM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		I am playing as the Allies and he's still able to slaughter me. I meant the two bridges west of Bastone that start the game blown. Sorry for the confusion. I'm on turn 4 now and he's steam rolling me right down the middle where there's non opposition. Northern flank is getting beat up but the southern has seen no action right now.

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Post #: 74
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 11:22:22 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

... the two bridges west of Bastone that start the game blown.


I don't think there are any bridges west of Bastogne that start the game blown.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Elmer is whoopin' you. He's pretty good at figuring stuff out, and he's chased me all the way back to the Meuse a couple times.

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Post #: 75
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 1:09:26 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I think he meant to say East of bastogne.




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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 4:46:30 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Yes east, it was late :)

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Post #: 77
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 5:32:51 PM   
Abnormalmind


Posts: 200
Joined: 11/24/2009
Status: offline 		The scenario is a lot of fun!!! Play testing requires a different set of lenses, that's all. I got my face kicked in by Larry, which is fine, and it's time to redo to test alternatives. I played this scenario along the lines of Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein for which I was richly rewarded with a sound defeat. Play testing does not involve winning or losing, rather the overall intent of the scenario designer versus the results in a head to head game. PBEM is far different than playing Elmer.

I'll post my losses in a minute.

Thanks,
Abnormalmind

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Post #: 78
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 6:23:23 PM   
Abnormalmind


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Start of Turn 18: Axis Losses

Approximately 25 percent of Axis infantry was lost and armor losses were around 10 percent. I played a very conservative air campaign netting approximately 8 percent loss. The Allied artillery ripped through my ranks, and was nicely organized in "banks" behind Larry's line. At one point I counted no less than 12 artillery batteries west of Malmedy. He had many other batteries throughout the game, and placed strategically in front of the Axis advance or cleverly off to the flanks. Axis artillery losses were around 3 percent, well within the replacement cycle.

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Post #: 79
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 8:05:45 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
The scenario is a lot of fun!!!


I think so too. The combat results are so unbloody compared to D21 or FITE that it seems more realistic to me. And the map is pretty. Steve Sill has done a really good job on this one and I'm glad he is letting Patrick and I playtest it. My initial feeling is that it's maybe kinda imbalanced against the German player though since in our game XXX corps didn't come out of garrison mode and I was STILL able to hold back the Axis horde with the troops that I did have. It can't be because of my superior playing skills because I've never won a FITE game playing PBEM against anybody playing either side Axis or Soviet. So I'm no expert.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
Play testing requires a different set of lenses, that's all.

Yeah, I agree. I'm keeping maticulus notes and saving all the turns before I hit the button to start the combats and keeping track of the losses etc. All that info may help Steve diagnose something someday.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
I got my face kicked in by Larry, which is fine, and it's time to redo to test alternatives.


I didn't mean to kick Patrick's face in. It was an accident. Besides he was doing great in the beginning moves....I was scrambling to find enough units to form a front line and several times I thought to myself 'okay right here's where he won the game'. Patrick's tactics were fine and he used his arty / ground units like I would have and I have no complaints about his game play. I think maybe we discovered a game breaker where I would move an engineer unit onto a broken bridge, repair the bridge, move a really strong mechanized unit onto the fixed bridge and then blow the bridge so that only foot units could attack it. Makes for a really strong roadblocker. Something like that would be great for the Soviets in FITE. Patrick is a good player, the odds were stacked against him. The same thing would have happened to me if I were the Axis....which is what we're about to find out now that I'm playing the Axis side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
PBEM is far different than playing Elmer.

Correct. Elmer does some 'strange' things sometimes and shoots himself in the foot frequently. Plus, he doesn't blow bridges in front of my advances, doesn't repair bridges when it's advantagous ( advantagous ? how do you spell that ? ), and from what I could observe in D21 doesn't blow bridges with his aircraft which any good player would do when it's called for. I love PBEM, it's a LOT more realistic and the opposite player feedback is much more detailed. LOL.


< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/16/2009 8:08:09 PM >

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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 11:33:36 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		So um......I sent my turn 1 moves to Patrick and put together a sortof AAR for what happened in the Axis turn 1.  The files are large and cumbersome so I thought I'd put it in a collection and make an html document for them and post it on a file server so readers could download it.  You can find the Axis turn 1 AAR here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wzueyizn4tk

Here's the aftermath wrapup:


< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/17/2009 12:17:56 AM >

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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/16/2009 11:53:14 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Yes, you are correct larry. Nothing beats a human.

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Post #: 82
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/17/2009 10:56:53 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Turn 2 is finished.  Patrick is fighting back fiercely and I'm loosing a lot of equipment.  The Allied arty is making progress very difficult.  That and the traffic density around St. Vith.  But I dropped some paratroops on bridges leading to Bastogne and maybe they will survive long enough for me to rescue them, they are behind enemy lines you see.  I decided to go ahead and repair the bridges east of Bastogne instead of trying a left hook with my push and I'm not sure but I think the engineers might survive bring in the middle of the river putting a bridge together.  Maybe.  I put some arty support within range of them to help them survive.  We'll see what happens.  Patrick's playback had 10 events so I guess his stuff is in garrison mode or in reorg or something.  So far so good.  Some Panzers 'woke up' from garrison mode and I tried to move them to  the front but the road was clogged with my arty etc. and they didn't get to move very far.  Patricik warned me of that but I had already moved.  Thanks anyway Patrick.  Supply levels dropped somewhat this turn but not enough to endanger anything.  Yet.  Turn 2's AAR can be found at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?xkmfuj22tng

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RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/17/2009 11:27:41 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I just lost the game.  I forgot to check to make sure that the engineers I try to repair the bridges with have an asterix in their names and moved the wrong kind of engineers onto the broken bridges.  Consequently they can't repair the bridges and it'll take a turn or two or several probably, to repair the bridge.  By that time Patrick will have moved something great big up to kill the engineer unit I move in there.  Well, you live and learn.  Now I know.  I wonder if Patrick had that problem when he was Axis.  Probably not....he's a better player than I am.


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Post #: 84
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/17/2009 2:17:42 PM   
sapper32


Posts: 1197
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Warminster England
Status: offline 		I do that also Larry wont the engineers positioned on the bridge allow motorized and mechanized units to cross over them??
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I just lost the game.  I forgot to check to make sure that the engineers I try to repair the bridges with have an asterix in their names and moved the wrong kind of engineers onto the broken bridges.  Consequently they can't repair the bridges and it'll take a turn or two or several probably, to repair the bridge.  By that time Patrick will have moved something great big up to kill the engineer unit I move in there.  Well, you live and learn.  Now I know.  I wonder if Patrick had that problem when he was Axis.  Probably not....he's a better player than I am.




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Post #: 85
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/17/2009 3:54:30 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper32
I do that also Larry wont the engineers positioned on the bridge allow motorized and mechanized units to cross over them??

Um.......Steve Sill, the designer of the scenario put some rocky terrain in the bridge hexes so that mechanized and motorized units can't cross the river unless it's repaired. It's more realistic that way. So my tactic of moving an engineer ( the kind that CAN repair bridges ) on to the broken bridge,repairing the bridge, and then moving a big mechanized unit onto it, then blowing the bridge is a game stopper because mechanized and motorized units can't attack the hex. So Patrick and I came up with a house rule that prevents that. The house rule is that if a mechanized unit finds itself on a broken bridge it must be moved off of it,
( movement points permitting ) as soon as possible. It has been working so far so we're gonna use it.

The problem with August Fog is that there are engineer units and then there are engineer units. Those with an asterix in their name are the only kind that can repair a bridge. The other kind are good for fording streams and gullies and such. I guess. I found a unit that can only move one hex at a time unless it's moved by rail and I disbanded the bad boy. THEN I realized I could have used it to repair railroad bridge hexes. D'oh. I shoot myself in the foot all the time. Just ask Patrick. He's been watching my playbacks.


< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/17/2009 3:55:22 PM >

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Post #: 86
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/17/2009 8:07:27 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Well, Axis turn 3 is finished.  I continued my push and gained a bunch of hexes and I'm creeping closer to St. Vith all the time.  Most of the bridges north of St. Vith are already blown and I'm going to probably have a chore trying to repair those bad boys.  You can find the turn 3 AAR document at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zyljiimzkdd

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 87
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/18/2009 10:46:47 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Well, Axis turn 4 is finished.  I tried to grab the Butgenbach fuel depot but failed.  Oh well, there's always the Robertville fuel depot to try for.  Also the push around the Bastogne area is going according to schedule.  Kinda.  I'm loosing more tanks all the time but the Allied player is loosing a lot of troops too.  The combat is getting bloodier than it was before.  I'm busy repairing bridges and plushing west and the Allied dude ( Patrick ) is blowing bridges and throwing roadblocks in my way,falling back ( ? )  slowly.  The turn 4 AAR document can be found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?mk5jjngmynn

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 88
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/19/2009 1:35:44 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		That grand strategic attack plan that I intended to use when we started this game is no longer fresh.  Patrick and I discussed what to do about XXX corps's problem coming out of garrison mode and we came up with a 'house rule' to ignore the north end of the map.  So my sweeping attack along the north end of the map is out.  Steve S. thought that I didn't have enought units to construct a very good defensive line all that way from the north end of the map to the south end anyway.  And having played for four turns now I can see how right he is.  I'll come up with something else real soon now since we're in the middle of our game I guess I ought to.  So far I've been playing it by ear and I guess you can say I'm just pushing everybody west but I need to come up with some kind of contingency plan because the Allied reinforcements are going to arrive at the battlefield in a turn or two.  Here's the original battle plan I thought I might use:



(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 89
RE: Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread - 12/19/2009 1:41:18 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've put together a 'movie' of the moves of the first four turns and put it on a file server so you guys can see a zoomed out view of the moves of the Axis dudes as they push west.  It's only about 2.5 M bytes big this time. You can find it here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kmjqmmfyezv


< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/19/2009 1:42:15 AM >

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