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RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 5:56:45 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

I've thought about the Judy range issue for a while and sent an email to Andy.
To be honest I'm now in a limbo as the KB has lost much of its potency. I simply can't risk engaging the enemy since both 7 and 8 hex range now will find us at a severe disadvantage.
- I asked Andy what he would do if his SBDs suddenly had a 6(7) hex range.

I also agree with comments on drop tanks and regular range. All sources I've visited shows that Judy has more range than Val. An 8(10) normal range should be the defacto range.
Someone has FUBAR'ed big time here, almost a game breaker to downgrade to a 6(7) hex model at a critical time in the game. So I will probably halt this game for some days to think about the consequences.

I think the issue is the 500 kg bomb. There is some question as to the maximum range of the Judy when carrying this bomb. The Judy was a fairly small and light bomber and there is some doubt as to how far it could deliver this kind of bomb load. I think the considerations that went into reducing the range were well thought out (by people who know a lot more than I do).

The drop tanks are another matter. Just doing the math suggests that the total weight of the tanks and the added bomb would have made it near impossible for the Judy to get off a flight deck. I think this was clearer than the issue of the range with the only the 1,000 bomb.

Perhaps a range of 6/8 would be in order but I just don't know enough to say. The normal range of the later model Avengers is 6/7 as well. Of course, it gets drop tanks. But quite frankly, we are talking about a stage in the war when the Allies should start to have some serious operational advantages over the Japanese. However, we are stuck with this silly 7 vs 8 strike range until the last day of the war. Probably should be 8/7 in 42, 7/7 in 43 and change to 7/8 in favor of the Allies in 44. Or as you say, just make it 7/7.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3001

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:05:44 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Basically the Judy has always had an enormous range because they were equipped with drop tanks.
I don't think they used drop tanks while flying of carriers...so removing the drop tanks didn't matter too much since the max range for a carrier ac is 7-8 hexes anyway.
- So when the drop tanks dissappeared I didn't think much of it before I saw that normal range was set to 6 hexes with 7 as extended.

This is 1 hex less than the Val bomber.
I've checked many sources and the vast majority gives the Judy a longer normal range than the Val.
- The Japs did everything to provide their strike ac with the longers possible range so this makes perfect sense.

IF range had been reduced to less than that of the Val the Judy would have to use drop tanks.
Nerfing range AND removing drop tanks is a decision only AFBs could take from my point of view.
It completely disrupts game in progress balance like this one as mentioned by Pax.

Any Jap player will have to replan how to equip KB and keep it as a competitive force.
How on earth could I dare to risk a strike on Allied fleets near Line Islands when 2/3 of my strike force only can deliver an efficient attack from 6 hexes?
- I'd rather see they removed the 8 vs 7 hex strike advantage for Japan instead of nerfing the Judy.

This is of course not Andy's fault, but my annoyance with this issue is beyond words.

PzB,

I am only an occasional visitor to your AAR, but appreciate your leadership in all things Japanese. Fight on, man-BANZAI!

Since I am only an occasional visitor, can you summarize what borked your Judy production? Did you and Andy just upgrade to a beta patch?

No this is a result of the last official patch which had a db change in it. The beta is only EXE, no data changes in it.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 3002

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:18:27 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

I've thought about the Judy range issue for a while and sent an email to Andy.
To be honest I'm now in a limbo as the KB has lost much of its potency. I simply can't risk engaging the enemy since both 7 and 8 hex range now will find us at a severe disadvantage.
- I asked Andy what he would do if his SBDs suddenly had a 6(7) hex range.

I also agree with comments on drop tanks and regular range. All sources I've visited shows that Judy has more range than Val. An 8(10) normal range should be the defacto range.
Someone has FUBAR'ed big time here, almost a game breaker to downgrade to a 6(7) hex model at a critical time in the game. So I will probably halt this game for some days to think about the consequences.

I think the issue is the 500 kg bomb. There is some question as to the maximum range of the Judy when carrying this bomb. The Judy was a fairly small and light bomber and there is some doubt as to how far it could deliver this kind of bomb load. I think the considerations that went into reducing the range were well thought out (by people who know a lot more than I do).

The drop tanks are another matter. Just doing the math suggests that the total weight of the tanks and the added bomb would have made it near impossible for the Judy to get off a flight deck. I think this was clearer than the issue of the range with the only the 1,000 bomb {500kg = 1,100lbs}.

Perhaps a range of 6/8 would be in order but I just don't know enough to say. The normal range of the later model Avengers is 6/7 as well. Of course, it gets drop tanks. But quite frankly, we are talking about a stage in the war when the Allies should start to have some serious operational advantages over the Japanese. However, we are stuck with this silly 7 vs 8 strike range until the last day of the war. Probably should be 8/7 in 42, 7/7 in 43 and change to 7/8 in favor of the Allies in 44. Or as you say, just make it 7/7.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 3003

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:18:50 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Ok thought it was the patch, but last official update then!

Here is a screen of a Judy D4Y1 recon with drop tanks.
You got 2 x 330 liter drop tanks. This means 2 wing tanks...

If you reduce these tanks to 2 x 150 liter plus one 250 kg center line bomb the weight would be the same and extended range should easily be in the 8-10 hex range, no?

The ability to choose ordnance loads is a critical one.
Hard wiring it first to one setting and then changing everything later on mess up all ongoing games that needs a patch since a Jap player has to plan his production in advance.

Unfortunately I've never been able to get involved in the discussions on the air - sea threads, I usually disagree to much with the decisions

The much discussed max strike range of 7 hexes for Allies and 8 hexes for Japan is a different but related issuse that strongly influence Jap production planning.
I would sacrifice a 500kg bomb load on my dive bombers to get that 1 hex range advantage. If both sides had a max strike range of 7 hexes I would do my outmost to equip my carriers with
a dive bomber model that got this range.

In this game the 8 hex strike range for Japan has now been nullified as 2/3 of KBs strike ac can only carry a 250kg bomb to 7 hexes.
Not much value in launching only fighters and torpedo bombers from 8 hexes.

So if we go on with this new game model the Line Islands will have to do without KB support and I will have to think anew about how to use the KB.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3004

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:21:20 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Btw: Thx for the support and input on this issue. Also apologize for the flaming but this was a most unwanted surprise that had slipped beyond my radar and it first became visible at the worst possible moment; in the middle of a major engagement in the Central Pacific!

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3005

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:22:33 PM

PaxMondo

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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

The Grace is such a capable ac that if I had to choose between these evils I
would probably keep Val's and greatly resarch the Grace to introduce it from 6/44 instead of 8/44.

Starting from scratch it would probably be possible to overcome these "issues" in a civilized way.

Yep, same thoughts that I have ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB
In this particular game it is not so since I'm stuck with a full load of D4Y1's and 2s.

And this is the real rub ... ouch.

On the flip side, they are no "worse" than the Val's that you would plan to use ... just wasted R&D ... and all the effort expended to re-equip all your squadrons.

Chin up. If anyone can recover from the debacle, it will be you. Lesser men like me would already be deep into their bottle of Laphroaig ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3006

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:24:36 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Btw: Thx for the support and input on this issue. Also apologize for the flaming but this was a most unwanted surprise that had slipped beyond my radar and it first became visible at the worst possible moment; in the middle of a major engagement in the Central Pacific!

That wasn't flaming, simply venting.

Venting is healthy for the soul.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3007

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:24:58 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Here's the picture; do you spot the ugly duckling?
- Would the Japs put together a strike team were only 2 out of 3 could play ball?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3008

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:28:09 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

I'm only dipping into my Heineken storage, but thx Pax

We can still engage Allies efficiently from 7 hexes...with 250kg bombs.
- Being in an inferior position quality and quantitative wise loosing the 500kg bomb and the 8 hex range takes away the incentive we had for using the KB offensively against Allied flets at Line Islands

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3009

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:28:36 PM

PaxMondo

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Joined: 6/6/2008
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I have to say I am as perplexed as you are. I am sure the IJN intended the Judy to have 10/12 strike range. What the experts are saying is that the IJN did NOT achieve their goal. I have to defer to their expertise, although I am as stunned as you are ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3010

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:33:28 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Basically the Judy has always had an enormous range because they were equipped with drop tanks.
I don't think they used drop tanks while flying of carriers...so removing the drop tanks didn't matter too much since the max range for a carrier ac is 7-8 hexes anyway.
- So when the drop tanks dissappeared I didn't think much of it before I saw that normal range was set to 6 hexes with 7 as extended.

This is 1 hex less than the Val bomber.
I've checked many sources and the vast majority gives the Judy a longer normal range than the Val.
- The Japs did everything to provide their strike ac with the longers possible range so this makes perfect sense.

IF range had been reduced to less than that of the Val the Judy would have to use drop tanks.
Nerfing range AND removing drop tanks is a decision only AFBs could take from my point of view.
It completely disrupts game in progress balance like this one as mentioned by Pax.

Any Jap player will have to replan how to equip KB and keep it as a competitive force.
How on earth could I dare to risk a strike on Allied fleets near Line Islands when 2/3 of my strike force only can deliver an efficient attack from 6 hexes?
- I'd rather see they removed the 8 vs 7 hex strike advantage for Japan instead of nerfing the Judy.

This is of course not Andy's fault, but my annoyance with this issue is beyond words.

PzB,

I am only an occasional visitor to your AAR, but appreciate your leadership in all things Japanese. Fight on, man-BANZAI!

Since I am only an occasional visitor, can you summarize what borked your Judy production? Did you and Andy just upgrade to a beta patch?

No this is a result of the last official patch which had a db change in it. The beta is only EXE, no data changes in it.

This must only affect NEW STARTS or those wherein the players accept the database changes under the 1106'i' patch then. I've just starting using D4Y1 Judys in my game (May 1943) which was started several patches ago, but no we have not updated the database changes. They are able to carry 500kg bombs to range =7.

This is a strong argument for not changing the Database for games in progress. We'll not be 'upgrading' to any other patches or betas any time soon.

_____________________________

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3011

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:39:27 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Yes, db changes to a game in progress are tricky. I won't pretend to understand all the nuances and ins and out. And it might have been the patch prior to 1106i ... I just remember the bruhaha when the change was made. Since then I've been either playing my mod or Downfall, and so have pretty much forgotten all about this ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 3012

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:47:21 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
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Here's the artist impression of the Judy...with 2 wing mounted drop tanks.
Drop tank size was't fixed, was it?

1 centerline bomb, either 250 og 500kg plus a max range depending on either max load or 250kg plus max size drop tanks.

Yes, patching has many consequences..but this can be overcome if one's aware of them.
Still, the Judy nerf is a decision I will not forgive them for anytime soon!!!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3013

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 6:51:34 PM

kfsgo

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I have to say I am as perplexed as you are.��I am sure the IJN intended the Judy to have 10/12 strike range.� What the experts are saying is that the IJN did NOT achieve their goal.� I have to defer to their expertise, although I am as stunned as you are ...

I suspect that if range had been the key driver it would have been a larger aircraft - the B7A (which makes 13/10) is a 4 ton aircraft empty, while the D3A and D4Y are both about 2&1/2. Jill is about 3t and manages a longer range, but then I imagine without needing to be bulked up for dive-bombing you can squeeze a lot more fuel into there. Judy is actually smaller than Val - given which, twice the bombload and 100mph or so of extra speed on the same range starts to look bloody impressive.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3014

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 7:00:21 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

I'm going to register at the Combined Fleet forum and ask why they're providing erronous range information for the Judy

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to kfsgo)

Post #: 3015

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 8:12:11 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

I'm going to register at the Combined Fleet forum and ask why they're providing erronous range information for the Judy

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3016

RE: Kill em all! - 10/29/2011 9:22:58 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Well, struggling on...will have to withdraw KB from Central Pacific.
We're now a behind the lines force until we can get the Judy issue straightened out.

Andy tried another attack on Xmas but something didn't quite work out as planned, partial at best.
No more troops were unloaded either, accordingly all were ashore after day 1!?

Perhaps Murphy Island will continue to be a pain in the butt on it's own!

Our midgets and PT boats score some successes, but that's about it.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 15, 44

Surface Combat

Night Time Surface Combat, near Christmas Island at 174,141, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
MTB G-553
MTB G-554
MTB G-555

Allied Ships
APD Belknap
APD Barr
DMS Hamilton
DMS Howard
DMS Chandler
AM Requisite
AM Impeccable
AM Oracle
AM Chief
AM Competent
AM Triumph
AM Velocity
AM Salute, heavy damage
AM Buoyant
APA Henderson
APA James O'Hara, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
APA Sumter
APA La Salle
APA Herald of Morning
AK Autauga
AKA Algol
AKA Thuban
AKA Virgo
LSV Catskill
LSD Ashland
LSD Belle Grove
LSD Epping Forest
LSD Lindenwald
LSD Oak Hill
LST-16
LST-17
LST-18
LST-19, on fire
LST-20
LST-21
LST-22
LST-23
LST-24
LST-25
LST-26
LST-28
LST-71
LST-72
LST-73
LST-74
LST-75
LST-78
LST-81
LST-82
LST-83
LST-84
LST-85
LST-87
LST-88
LST-124
LST-126
LST-166
LST-456, and is sunk

Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 50% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 22,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 , LST-82 , LST-81 ,
LST-78 , LST-75 , LST-74 ,
LST-73 , LST-72 , LST-71 ,
LST-28 , LST-26 , LST-25 ,
LST-24 , LST-23 , LST-22 ,
LST-21 , LST-20 , LST-19 ,
LST-18 , LST-17 , LST-16 ,
LCI-21 , LCI-66 , LCI-65 ,
LCI-64 screened from combat
- escorted by AM Buoyant , AM Competent
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-553 at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
APA James O'Hara collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Chief
Range closes to 8,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Competent , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
Range closes to 6,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Triumph ,
AM Chief , AM Oracle
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 , LST-82 , LST-81 ,
LST-78 , LST-75 , LST-74 ,
LST-73 , LST-72 , LST-71 ,
LST-28 , LST-26 , LST-25 ,
LST-24 , LST-23 , LST-22 ,
LST-21 , LST-20 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Triumph
DMS Chandler engages MTB G-555 at 7,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
LST-457 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-456 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Oracle
DMS Chandler engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
AM Impeccable engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , AM Buoyant ,
AM Velocity , AM Triumph , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
APD Belknap engages MTB G-554 at 8,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Triumph , AM Competent , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
AM Salute collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , AM Buoyant , AM Velocity ,
AM Competent
DMS Howard engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
AM Salute engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
LST-448 collides with LST-456 at 174 , 141
LST-17 collides with LST-456 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Chief , AM Oracle
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
LST-215 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
LST-74 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
LST-17 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-454 ,
LST-452 , LST-451 , LST-450 ,
LST-449 , LST-448 , LST-447 ,
LST-218 , LST-216 , LST-215 ,
LST-180 , LST-179 , LST-177 ,
LST-176 , LST-175 , LST-169 ,
LST-167 , LST-166 , LST-126 ,
LST-124 , LST-88 , LST-87 ,
LST-85 , LST-84 , LST-83 ,
LST-82 , LST-81 , LST-78 ,
LST-75 , LST-74 , LST-73 ,
LST-72 , LST-71 , LST-28 ,
LST-26 , LST-25 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Velocity
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
AM Buoyant engages MTB G-555 at 2,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
AM Requisite collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-469 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Competent , AM Chief
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 6,000 yards
MTB G-555 engages AM Oracle at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
APD Belknap collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Oracle
Range increases to 14,000 yards
AM Triumph collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-447 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-454 ,
LST-452 , LST-451 , LST-450 ,
LST-449 , LST-448 , LST-447 ,
LST-218 , LST-216 , LST-215 ,
LST-180 , LST-179 , LST-177 ,
LST-176 , LST-175 , LST-169 ,
LST-167 , LST-166 , LST-126 ,
LST-124 , LST-88 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , AM Salute , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent
MTB G-555 engages DMS Howard at 14,000 yards
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 14,000 yards
AM Buoyant engages MTB G-555 at 14,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Christmas Island at 175,140, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
MTB G-553
MTB G-554
MTB G-555

Allied Ships
BB Alabama
BB Iowa
DD Hall
DD Halligan
DD Lewis Hancock
DD Haraden
DD Harrison
DMS Forrest
DMS Hobson
DMS Ellyson

Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 50% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...

Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub Attacks

Submarine attack near Rangoon at 54,53

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-53

Allied Ships
xAK Joseph Simon, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

xAK Joseph Simon is sighted by SSX Ha-53
SSX Ha-53 launches 2 torpedoes at xAK Joseph Simon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Christmas Island at 174,141

Japanese Ships
SS I-10, hits 16, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DE Steele
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke
AP William Ward Burrows
AK Grumium
AK Draco
DE Wyman
DE Stadtfeld

SS I-10 launches 4 torpedoes at DE Steele
DE Wyman fails to find sub and abandons search
DE Steele fails to find sub and abandons search
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld attacking submerged sub ....
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Christmas Island at 174,141

Japanese Ships
SS I-159, hits 40, heavy damage

Allied Ships
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke
AP William Ward Burrows
AK Grumium
AK Draco
DE Wyman
DE Steele

SS I-159 is sighted by escort
DE Wyman attacking submerged sub ....
DE Steele attacking submerged sub ....
Sounds of submarine breaking up detected!
Escort abandons search for sub
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bombardments

Night Naval bombardment of Christmas Island at 174,141

Allied Ships
BB Iowa
BB Alabama

BB Iowa firing at Christmas Island
OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB Alabama
BB Alabama firing at 54th Division
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

Invasion Support action off Christmas Island (174,141)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

57 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AK Crater, Shell hits 4, on fire
DE Steele
DE Stadtfeld
CA Australia
AK Arided, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke

DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
DE Stadtfeld firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
12.7cm 3YT DP Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
20cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Arided at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
20cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Morning Air attack on 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion, at 174,141 (Christmas Island)
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 24
Barracuda II x 22
Corsair II x 56
F4U-1A Corsair x 166
F6F-3 Hellcat x 301
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 236
TBF-1 Avenger x 9
TBM-1C Avenger x 268

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 5 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
527 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 15 (2 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (1 destroyed, 16 disabled)

Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 144th Infantry RCT /1 ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking Yokosuka 3rd SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 12th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 144th Infantry RCT /1 ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking Yokosuka 3rd SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 12th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Christmas Island , at 174,141
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 61

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Christmas Island , at 174,141
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 10

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Christmas Island (174,141)
Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 18546 troops, 284 guns, 40 vehicles, Assault Value = 710
Defending force 36243 troops, 1394 guns, 756 vehicles, Assault Value = 1704

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
18th Tank Regiment
Sasebo 6th SNLF
41st Infantry Regiment
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
54th Division
12th Engineer Regiment
18th Naval Guard Unit
144th Infantry RCT /1
11th RF Gun Battalion
56th JNAF AF Unit
4th Air Division
4th Fleet
3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion
26th Air Defense AA Regiment
19th Army
49th JNAF AF Unit
53rd Construction Battalion
80th JAAF AF Bn
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th JNAF AF Unit
5th JAAF AF Bn
6th Naval Const Bn /2

Defending units:
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
3rd Marine Div /14
37th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Div /1
6th Infantry Division
22nd Marine Regiment
193rd Tank Battalion
1st Marine Div /14
93rd Infantry Div /14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Christmas Island (174,141)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 9843 troops, 210 guns, 204 vehicles, Assault Value = 1702
Defending force 29296 troops, 373 guns, 238 vehicles, Assault Value = 701

Allied adjusted assault: 171
Japanese adjusted defense: 899

Allied assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
159 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
356 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 50 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Assaulting units:
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Div /14
1st Marine Div /14
6th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Div /1
22nd Marine Regiment
37th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Div /14

Defending units:
18th Tank Regiment
18th Naval Guard Unit
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
12th Engineer Regiment
Sasebo 6th SNLF
54th Division
41st Infantry Regiment
144th Infantry RCT /1
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
26th Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion
5th JAAF AF Bn
53rd Construction Battalion
80th JAAF AF Bn
19th Army
56th JNAF AF Unit
11th RF Gun Battalion
4th Fleet
15th JNAF AF Unit
49th JNAF AF Unit
4th Air Division
6th Naval Const Bn /2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Merauke (89,124)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11976 troops, 197 guns, 173 vehicles, Assault Value = 390
Defending force 788 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 22

Allied adjusted assault: 239
Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 239 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1103 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (6 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
53rd (Sep) Infantry Regiment
4th Australian Division
10 RAAF Base Force
10th RAAF M/W Sqn

Defending units:
2nd Ind.Mixed Rgt /1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wau (98,126)
Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 145 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 12
Defending force 781 troops, 20 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 29

Allied adjusted assault: 9
Japanese adjusted defense: 100

Allied assault odds: 1 to 11 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), disruption(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Australian Para Bn /1

Defending units:
Kure 6th SNLF
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 3017

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 12:46:29 AM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Here's the link were the Judy's range issue was discussed in detail:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range�

Brady questions the decision and refers to credible sources.
Actually it seems like its the SBDs range that should be nerfed!

I smell something rotten here

Edit. As I understand it the air dev team questionned some of the sources used here. I will ask for clarification but as I said to Andy, if the Japs needed more range from the Judy and weight wad an issue they would take a 550lb bomb plus 2 smaller drop tanks. Extended range would then equal that of the Zeke and Jill. Removing drop tanks an nerfing range for a plane WITH hardpoints for drop tanks seems silly willy to me.....

< Message edited by PzB -- 10/30/2011 1:54:43 AM >

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3018

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 3:36:02 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Here's the link were the Judy's range issue was discussed in detail:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range?

Brady questions the decision and refers to credible sources.
Actually it seems like its the SBDs range that should be nerfed!

I smell something rotten here

Edit. As I understand it the air dev team questionned some of the sources used here. I will ask for clarification but as I said to Andy, if the Japs needed more range from the Judy and weight wad an issue they would take a 550lb bomb plus 2 smaller drop tanks. Extended range would then equal that of the Zeke and Jill. Removing drop tanks an nerfing range for a plane WITH hardpoints for drop tanks seems silly willy to me.....

Yep, remember that whole discussion. Too late, of course. The decision had already been made and the patch delivered.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3019

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 10:58:42 AM

viberpol

Posts: 838
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
This must only affect NEW STARTS or those wherein the players accept the database changes under the 1106'i' patch then. I've just starting using D4Y1 Judys in my game (May 1943) which was started several patches ago, but no we have not updated the database changes. They are able to carry 500kg bombs to range =7.

This is a strong argument for not changing the Database for games in progress. We'll not be 'upgrading' to any other patches or betas any time soon.

Well, yes, but the database changes are both -- strange changes and actuall corrections of mistakes (as those reported concerning sound detectors or 88 mm guns). You take all or nothing...

I can only repeat my post from that thread: So much for any Japanese range advantage http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viberpol
That makes me wonder... why the heck the devs limited the range of Judy?

I searched the forum for phrases "Judy AND range" and it found only this thread.
So it seems it is not a result of some complains/whinings/lobbing of AFBs.

It seems clear from what Brady brought here that it can use both drop tanks and centerline heavy bomb. Maybe such a setup is impossible from smaller CVs, but that's why they have TBs squadrons not DBs. What's more, long range attacks from CV TFs are limited by the game code, and such a setup is definitely possible if Judies were to take off from normal airfields... so what's the problem?
Why they took the nice toy out of hands of JFBs? (me )

It's a "correction" that's actually a mistake.

< Message edited by viberpol -- 10/30/2011 11:40:35 AM >

_____________________________

Przy lackim orle, przy koniu Kiejstuta Archanioł Rusi na proporcach błysł

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 3020

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 12:10:12 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Obviously Andy doesnt have much sympathy for this nerf since the 8 hex range burned him twice. The picture from my side is still different, nerf is ok because you have won enough..time to get even

I've spent mu h time and fuel to position and move KB and oilers to Cent Pac only to find that our strike capabilities have been undermined.
Andy says he will use react on his cv tfs from now on to avoid the 8 hex strikes..maybe that's an advantage we can use.

But going 1-1 with a force stronger than us with reduced payloads and range is not an option.

The question that returns to me is "Would Japan really equip all their Judy dive bombers with hard points for wing mounted drop tanks and only use them for transfers and long range search versions?"

I'm convinced that the Judy could carry at least a reduced payload plus drop tanks..until the numerous web sources change their range data I will continue to look for conclusive data.

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to viberpol)

Post #: 3021

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 1:46:37 PM

pauk

Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB
I smell something rotten here

Sorry to hear about that mate, it seems i was right with swagger stick propecy

.

nevertheless, im sure you will adopt to the new situation here and prepare KB and rest of your's AF for next set of "mother of all battles".

It seems that you have to watch from now for:

a) central pacific (Marians)
b) northern Guinea (thrust via Torres strait to north Guinea.

_____________________________

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3022

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 2:14:40 PM

paullus99

Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline

Not all Japanese decisions (or even most of them) during the war were entirely rational or logical.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to pauk)

Post #: 3023

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 3:23:20 PM

krupp_88mm

Posts: 406
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline

i think the real issue is.. the limit on strike range.. why not let the player choose the range of his strikes.. the key problem with launching long range strikes is its very difficult to find the enemy where he should be..

-he could potentially change course and steam right out of your range,

-your returning aircraft are likely to drop into the ocean from lack of fuel,

-you have no fuel left to search for the enemy fleet, and no time for combat operations once over target.

-you leave yourself vulnerable to an enemy counter attack which can be more accurate now that they can follow your planes right back to their source since they cannot alter course or zig zag on the way back..

- reduced paylaods of course

- you have to fly at vulnerable cruise speed wont have any extra fuel to fly at increased (fuel inefficient) high speeds, this will increase the time he can intercept you on egress / ingress and increase the time he has to react to your detection

- you may have to fly at lower altitude since you may not have time fuel to climb to altitude

- probably have to limit the strike size since it will take a long time to get everyone in / out of the air burning up fuel, this probably means you can only launch a partial strike.

-if the other guys strike package failed to connect with your carriers they will have to dump ordinance land rearm refuel. ect, you loose alot of time meanwhile he can pounce on you while he knows most of your planes on deck loaded with fuel.. or they are unprepared for combat, or they busy landing

all these factors don't feel like they are modeled accurately in game at all, these are the real reasons why you would never launch a long range strike not because it wasn't possible, but because it was suicide.

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 10/30/2011 3:33:27 PM >

(in reply to paullus99)

Post #: 3024

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 3:27:32 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Obviously Andy doesnt have much sympathy for this nerf since the 8 hex range burned him twice. The picture from my side is still different, nerf is ok because you have won enough..time to get even

I've spent mu h time and fuel to position and move KB and oilers to Cent Pac only to find that our strike capabilities have been undermined.
Andy says he will use react on his cv tfs from now on to avoid the 8 hex strikes..maybe that's an advantage we can use.

But going 1-1 with a force stronger than us with reduced payloads and range is not an option.

The question that returns to me is "Would Japan really equip all their Judy dive bombers with hard points for wing mounted drop tanks and only use them for transfers and long range search versions?"

I'm convinced that the Judy could carry at least a reduced payload plus drop tanks..until the numerous web sources change their range data I will continue to look for conclusive data.

I hope you can come up with something conclusive. The problem with all the web sources that I have seen is that they all seem to be the same. That is, all seem to be taken from the same source with no references and no citations. Some are obviously just cut and pastes from the others. Tends to be a big problem out there at the University of Google.

What little I know is that the Judy was light and designed for speed which usually means lower wing loading, which usually means less lift and higher take off speeds. Certainly less lift than virtually all Allied carrier aircraft of the period. So take off weight from a carrier might have been a very fine point for the Judy. And could she handle a full load and tanks from land if given a decent runway? Nobody seems to have the answer.

I really can't find any real decent source on the Judy other than "gloss over" stuff on the net. Can anyone recommend a good in depth source on Japanese planes?

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(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3025

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 4:32:31 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

One of the more informative web sites I've come over:
http://www.rice.dreab.com/p-Yokosuka_D4Y

Will focus further research from the j-aircraft site

Yes, I said to Andy that the entire 8 vs 7 hex strike range limit should be removed and replaced by a variety of penalties for long range strikes.
As it is lba can connect at up to 16 hexes or so, but then usually single squadrons. With perfect spotting, good weather etc fuel and pilot fatigue would be the most limiting factors...

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
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(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 3026

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 4:43:17 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

One of the more informative web sites I've come over:
http://www.rice.dreab.com/p-Yokosuka_D4Y

Will focus further research from the j-aircraft site

Yes, I said to Andy that the entire 8 vs 7 hex strike range limit should be removed and replaced by a variety of penalties for long range strikes.
As it is lba can connect at up to 16 hexes or so, but then usually single squadrons. With perfect spotting, good weather etc fuel and pilot fatigue would be the most limiting factors...

The range limit for a/c flying from a carrier is due to getting off the short carrier deck with both fuel and ordnance. So, getting rid of that would also require making major changes to the aircraft ordnance routine to more finely tune what ordnance is carried at which ranges (I'm not suggesting that has to be under human control, just that the code would have to account for it). I really doubt that's the sort of change they would undertake as it's really fundamental and pretty much would have to apply to LBA also. Yes, it would be an improvement, but it's so major I really don't see it happening.

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3027

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 4:58:08 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

No, it would have to be simpliied...remove restrictions and generalize.
CAG groups can sortie their max range just as lba. Very seldom see lba strikes beyond the 8-10 hex range.
Launching at long range will cost you in form of ops losses, lack of coordination and high pilot fatigue.

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 3028

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 5:30:34 PM

Erkki

Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

Empty weight wingloadings(the lower the better, kg/m^2)

D3A: 103
D4Y: 74
SBD: 96

Empty powerloadings(higher the better, hp/m(in kg))

D3A: 0,51
D4Y: 0,57
SBD: 0,41

Full ordnance and fuel powerloadings:

D3A: 0,32 (+1550kg)
D4Y: 0,32 (+1800kg)
SBD: 0,25 (+1950kg (includes small droptanks? This is SBD-5)

Just pulled engine power ratings, empty weights and max takeoff weights from Wikipedia so these definitely arent 100% accurate but should be close enough.

D4Y1 had 200hp less power than the D2 used here so it'd seem that no range advantage above D3A is justified if it is to carry 500kg bomb as CV deck length will probably become issue. D2 with improved engine however improves power to weight ratio so much it shouldnt be a problem any more.

< Message edited by Erkki -- 10/30/2011 5:36:20 PM >

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(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 3029

RE: Kill em all! - 10/30/2011 6:04:42 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Yes, all this looks convincing...it's source verification that's remainint!

Here is some JFB stuff for you all, and especially for Pauk-San

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BXo-jWcGnw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Erkki)

Post #: 3030

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RE: Kill em all!