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Notice for All - 6/29/2002 9:47:22 AM   
Wasp

 

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I would like to say that I have really enjoyed the generosity of Matrix games. Well, that said, I have a concern I would like to share with everyone. Reading some of these posts, I have noticed some of us use the word "Jap" freely in these forums like it is just another word. I am quite concerned. The word "Jap" is a word of hate and I feel that too many people use it too freely. This is a word of hate and discrimination and I believe firmly that it is time for the word to GO! So I kindly ask all of you to refrain from using ANY derogatory terms that are designed to degrade any race of people. You know when people see some of these forums and see the word what would people think? What would children think? It seems to me that knowingly or not, the word is sending a message of hate. It is not what the civilized world does. Have we not got over the tragedies of hate and discrimination? As many of you understand, discrimination and hate has caused nothing but harm and hurt for all those involved. Look at Hitler as a good example. Look at what hate did to Germany. Sure, some of you may use derogatory terms just because you do not like a certain group of people, or just because you allow your emotions to control your thoughts, not your conscious mind. All I am saying is THE NEXT GENERATION OF PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONTAMINATED BY HATE AND MESSAGES OF HATE. IS IT NOT TIME TO PUT AN END OF HATRED TOWARDS OUR FELLOW MAN? HAVE WE NOT LEARNED FROM OUR PAST MISTAKES WHAT HATE DOES TO THE HUMAN RACE? IT SIMPLY SETS US APART FROM ONE ANOTHER. SO PLEASE, FOR EVERYONE AND FOR THE NEXT GENERATION OF PEOPLE, PLEASE STOP THE SPEREAD OF HATE! THIS IS ONE STEP, BUT A HUGE STEP TO STOPPING THE SPEREAD OF HATE. SO FOR ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE USED OR USE DEROGATORY TERMS OF ANY KIND THAT ARE DESIGNED TO HURT OTHERS, PLEASE PUT AN END TO IT. WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER CENTURY OF HATE.

Good day to you all and thank you for taking your time to read my message. And please refrain from using derogatory terms. Do your part to stop hatred and discrimination. Thank you

Wasp
Post #: 1
- 6/29/2002 5:59:45 PM   
U2


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Dear Wasp

I love Japan and travel there every year to have a good time and to meet friends (japanese friends). I am one of the persons who write Japs because I am too lazy to write Japanese. I do know that it can be used in a racist way but this forum is something different. You and I and the rest of this community would notice if someone used the word "Jap" in a racist way. I would be one of the first ones to react. Thanks for your concern but I feel that it is not necessary here. But it is a very good point that you make and we must all make sure that we have racist free forums.
Dan

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Post #: 2
- 6/30/2002 3:01:14 AM   
Wasp

 

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Well, I understand. An abbreviation for Japan by the way is Jpn. Perhaps instead of using the word, we could use IJN, IJA, etc...... Simply I was concerned that by using such words some people may get the idea that it is acceptable to use such words.

Wasp

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Post #: 3
- 6/30/2002 3:15:35 AM   
Goblin


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One wonders why Jew for Jewish, and Brit for British aren't the same?

Wasp is an offensive term in some circles... Just because its written, doesn't mean its intended to be offensive, as evidenced by your sceen name...

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Post #: 4
- 6/30/2002 3:34:03 AM   
Wasp

 

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ok, I was not intending for it to be that way. I took the screen name Wasp in honor of the USS Wasp. This has absolutely nothing to do with degrade any one. If this angered anyone I sincerely apologize. I will even offer to change my screen name to some thing else or add USS in front. However, in my opinion the term "Jap" is totally different, for this word has long been used in a hurtful way, the original intent of this word was never ment to be used as a shorter way of saying Japan/Japanese (Although some people has used it as a shorter way of saying it) mostly to belittle and to degrade the Japanese race. Because of this problem, an abbreviation JPN was created a while ago. That's all, I am not trying to start up a huge argument over this. Just trying to get the message across that the word "Jap" is alot more hurtful than just an casual saying that people use. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Good day to you all.

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Post #: 5
- 6/30/2002 3:39:03 AM   
U2


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp
[B]ok, I was not intending for it to be that way, however, in my opinion this is different, for this word has long been used in a hurtful way, the original intent of this word was never ment as a shorter way of saying Japan/Japanese (Although some people has used it as a shorter way of saying it) mostly to belittle and to degrade the Japanese race. Because of this problem, an abbreviation JPN was created a while ago. That's all, I am not trying to start up a huge argument over this. Just trying to get the message across that the word "Jap" is alot more hurtful than just an casual saying that people use. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Good day to you all. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi

I understand you and even though I mean no harm by "Jap" I will do my best to write IJN or the japanese. You never know when a japanese player might show up on this forum and perhaps be insulted. That is something I dont want to happen.
Dan

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Post #: 6
- 6/30/2002 3:55:14 AM   
Wasp

 

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Dear U2,

Thank you for your understanding. I'm just trying to do my part to make the world a better place to live for everyone of every race and origin that inhibits this earth.

Have a nice day:) :) :)

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Post #: 7
- 6/30/2002 4:07:50 AM   
U2


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp
[B]
Have a nice day:) :) :) [/B][/QUOTE]

You too!:)
Dan

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Post #: 8
- 6/30/2002 4:25:40 AM   
Goblin


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Wasp, no one expects or want you to change your name. Just illustrating a point. I am just wondering why 'Jap', obviously short for Japanese, is slanderous.

While I agree with you and U2, and don't wish anyone to be offended here, I now am genuinely curious as to how this shortening is a bad thing. Does anyone know?

Goblin- A Goblin means no harm;)

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Post #: 9
- 6/30/2002 4:46:12 AM   
Sam-I-am

 

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I was under the impression that "Jap" was short for Japanese.
Like "Pole" short for Polish and so on.:confused:

I personaly hold no animosity tword the "Japs" for something that happened before I was born.

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Post #: 10
- 6/30/2002 5:05:42 AM   
Spooky


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Thanks Wasp for yor advice :)

However, do you know if young Japanese people still feel insulted when the word "Jap" is used ?

BTW, I don't mind if you use the word "froggies" for French people :D ... even if we never eat frogs !

Spooky

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Post #: 11
- 6/30/2002 5:54:16 AM   
crusher

 

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well i agree with wasp that the term jap is not nice my japanese friend also agree with wasp. this thread is in the wrong forum it should be in the matrix general issues forum this forum is about a game. i think it would be seen by more people if it was there.

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Post #: 12
- 6/30/2002 6:23:44 AM   
Mojo

 

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I always squirm a little when I see "Japs" used. At one time it was considered mildly deragatory. As a rule I don't use it.

So Crusher where are you in the PI? I lived in Angeles City for a couple of years when I was a kid. Sadly I have forgotten almost all of my Tagalog. Do they still make Texas buble gum? I used to spend all of my allowance on that stuff.

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Post #: 13
- 6/30/2002 6:30:47 AM   
crusher

 

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i live in cagayan de oro city . retired usaf been here for 9 years love it.

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Post #: 14
- 6/30/2002 6:42:44 AM   
showboat1


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Once again the evil head of PC rises up and I don't mean personal computer. Give it a rest. Jap short for Japanese. I was watching the movie Midway the other day and good old Ted Turner had his people bleep out "Jap" but left in loads of profanity. What a joke. I try to be racially sensitive, but in the interest of laziness some people will use it when typing.
As far as doing away with hate, it was, is, and will ALWAYS be with us. It won;t be overcome in our or anyone's lifetime. Unfortunate but true. For example remember 9/11, the Balkans, and the Palestinian problems.
Sorry got on my soap box. Will not happen again today.

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Post #: 15
- 6/30/2002 8:13:19 AM   
Mojo

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by showboat1
[B]Once again the evil head of PC rises up and I don't mean personal computer. Give it a rest. Jap short for Japanese. I was watching the movie Midway the other day and good old Ted Turner had his people bleep out "Jap" but left in loads of profanity. What a joke. I try to be racially sensitive, but in the interest of laziness some people will use it when typing.
As far as doing away with hate, it was, is, and will ALWAYS be with us. It won;t be overcome in our or anyone's lifetime. Unfortunate but true. For example remember 9/11, the Balkans, and the Palestinian problems.
Sorry got on my soap box. Will not happen again today. [/B][/QUOTE]

You're entitled to a soapbox. That's what this place is for.

;)

As far as this being a PC issue I see it as a matter of manners more than anything else. I lived in Japan for three years and not once did I ever hear one of my Japanese friends refer to themselves as Japs.

I'm glad Wasp posted this. Some people find the term offensive, some don't. We've heard that at least some Japanese find it offensive and that's good enough for me.

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Post #: 16
- 6/30/2002 8:42:15 AM   
Goblin


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I have to admit, I am really torn here.

Mojo and Wasp have a valid point. We do not want to offend anyone.

However, Mojo points out that some find it offensive, some don't. Hmmm. If we start down that road, we will soon be entirely out of things to print.

'Paras' will become 'Airborne Infantry' to someone that was in the AB and found Paras offensive. 'Brit' will become 'Citizen of the United Kingdom', because some found it offensive. Goodbye Swastika (which, incidently, was a symbol of healing at one time, but is now found to be offensive). No more wargaming, some find it offensive. Its not U.S. please, its United States of America. On and on.

I sincerely do not wish to offend or hurt anybody, but I don't believe anyone playing a WWII era game can be that sensitive to WWII era lingo, especially from other gamers who mean no harm, and wish to have fun, away from real life problems (like worrying about offending someone).

I have used the word Jap in my AAR/DAR's. If I have offended anyone, my apologies. No harm was intended. As I said, I am torn between using the phrase, or allowing (dare I say it?) a [I]form[/I] of censorship to control what I have written in a non-hostile manner.

Peace-Goblin

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Post #: 17
- 6/30/2002 8:56:25 AM   
Mojo

 

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I understand the dilema oh sensitive green one. (Igotta be quick cause I can smell the rice cooking. red beans and rice for dinner tonight. I do love andouille sausage)

I don't know what to tell you. Tokuhu (or whatever his name is) never mentioned this and he is the only Japanese contributor to the forum that springs to mind.

If I was in the midst of role playing like in a DAR I can see it. USMC vs ........well, you know. :D That's authentic and appropriate for the period.

But I don't want to be the judge here. Hell I'm as whitebread as you can get.

Can't talk. Gotta go stuff my face. First I have to open the windows and let that aroma out. Maybe I can draw a hungry woman to my door.

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Post #: 18
- 6/30/2002 10:56:57 AM   
Wasp

 

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For those of you who have believe that "Jap" is not an offensive term, and believe that Jap is short for Japanese, please read this:

Jap Pronunciation Key (jp)
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

As it shows here and as it would show in any dictionary, Jap is a derogatory term designed to degrade the Japanese. I believe that some of us believe that Jap is acceptable because we have heard people using it. (fathers, grandfathers who fought against the Japanese may have used it, and as a result, we began to think it was acceptable, when in fact it is totally unacceptable.) Although in the first half of the last century people have used Jap for short, I would like to remind you there was a hidden message behind it. It was a message of hate and the degrading of Japanese so that non-Japanese could get a laugh at some one else's expense. Because this problem surfaced, it was decided that an abbreviation JPN, I repeat JPN be used as an abbreviation for Japan/Japanese so that no misunderstandings would cause problems. Which is where we are at now. I understand why Jap has not been thought of as a derogatory term as it should be, because no one has specificially made a stand and said it was degrading and humiliating to those who see such words even if they are not meant to be disparaging. It is just like a white person going down into the hood and calling the African American people N------. I'm sure that you cannot get away by saying that it is short for African American or Negro. That is totally unacceptable. Why do we know this? Because strong minded leaders of the black community made a stand and told everyone that N----- was not acceptable and it was disparaging. They made it clear that racism was unacceptable. Because of the fact that the Japanese have not made a strong and serious attempt to get the message across that the word "Jap" is derogatory and unacceptable, because we have heard Jap being used, and because we are not reminded that it is a derogatory term, most people are misled to believe that there is nothing wrong with the word Jap, when in fact there is definitely something wrong with the term. Sure, we may never be able to completely destroy hatred, but we can do small things that will make a difference, a difference that will allow the futrure generation to live with out the tragedies of hatred. Now, everyone can do something to help, and I ask for all of us who believe that hatred is wrong to do something about it. Do the little things:

1. Don't pass the message of hate to childeren, no matter how much you dislike or hate a particular race of people, because the next generation does not need to endure the sadness, tragedies of hate. We must learn from our history, or history will repeat its self only resulting in pain.

2. Ask yourself if what you are doing is right before doing something. Just because one uses or has messages of hate, does not make it right. YOU have the final decision with what to do with your life: To let history repeat its self or to learn from the mistakes of our past generations and do our very best to make the world a better place. If you are in doubt, if something could be harmful, just ask, there is no harm in asking is something is wrong or not. As humans we can only continue to learn, for those who refuse to be open minded there is only sadness and pain. The IJN/IJA is a good example, they refused to be open minded to new ideas and they were defeated by the Allies who were always open minded and were ready to listen. WE AS A HUMAN RACE, MUST NEVER STOP LISTENING, BECAUSE WHEN YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN, YOU BECOME IGNORANT AND CAN NEVER GET THE FULL VIEW OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

3. Someone pointed it out that you cannot ever erase hatred; although we may not be able to erase hatred from the human race, we can contain hatred. (For those of you who watch basketball, when MJ used to play for chicago, you knew you could not stop MJ, but you knew you could contain him, sure he will get his dose of 30 points, but you could contain him: Damage control.) This is the same thing. Sure, you cannot stop hatred, but you can contain hatred, and stop the destruction of hate. Hate is one weapon that does not cost anything, it is the only weapon that kills and hurts people like no other weapon can. And guess where hate is created? People who are not able to come to an understanding that no one is perfect, and cannot accept the imperfections of his fellow man. Because when you hate, you are only weakening the Human race. You are only making the weapon called hate stronger than ever. So do your part to contain hatred, and even if only one person gets the message, that is an improvement, for that means that we are one person closer to stopping the speread of this virus called hate.

I know there is probably more, but I will stop it at this. Hopefully everyone now understands the full significance of one little word like "Jap"

Now, someone asked weather a Japanese person finds "Jap" offensive. Well, I must say that the Japanese people are not really informed about history like we are, so most young Japanese do not understand what "Jap" is. However, for Japanese and people who have Japanese ancestors and truly understand what it means, it is highly offensive. Some of you may ask why is the common Japanese not informed? Well, the Japanese try to hide the Pacific war from its own citizens by not teaching children about the war: by doing this they hope that time will erase all the tears of war and hate. Which is the same reason the Japanese government has problems with it's Asian neighbors over the Pacific war. Has anyone heard about the Japanese textbooks for school children in Japan? In the textbook, it tells children that in the Pacific war, Japan did no harm. Of course, along with this, people are not informed what "Jap" is. I could almost guarantee that you could ask a common Japanese person, who does not have strong knowledge of the American culture, language, customs, etc, and they will not be able to tell you what "Jap" means. Some older people who lived through the American occupation will know, because they have heard it. And to add insult to injury, the government of Japan has made all attempts to hide everything, so that the people do not know anything. This is quite sad. Which is probably why the Japanese people may not be offended. Bottom line.... They are not offended because they do not know the meaning of the word because they never knew, because the government has hidden everything. How can you ask some one if they are offended at something when they do not even know what it is? That is the big issue in Japan right now. The majority of Japanese people has lost their identity (of course with an exception of a few who actually understand history: just like there is always an exception to everything. But to those who understand, it is very offensive, and I would like to make that very clear. We must get the message out to people that "Jap" is not just another word, but it is an highly derogatory term that destroys relations between the Japanese people and the rest of the world. We must do this to make this world a better place to live, for the more knowledge a person gains, the wise he becomes, and I sincerely hope that everyone reading this has learned something: That the little words such as "Jap" fuel the fire of hatred......

"One small step for man - one giant leap for mankind"--Neil Armstrong

Well, now we are taking a small step, however we are also taking one giant leap for mankind. We have the power to let everyone know what this is all about. Although this is a small step for containing hatred, this is one giant leap forward to containing hatred.

P.S. I am sure you are wondering how I know all this stuff about Japanese, culture, history, and the governemnt's attempt to hide information from it's own people? Well, I am Japanese my self. I have seen the bad side and the good side of both countries and there is a ton I can say about both countries, however, I don't think I will fully list each and everything wrong with each country, because I will never get done. I leaned and studied both American and Japanese culture in person not from a book or TV, although my study of people and history is still continuing and will probably never end, I know enough to tell you this. As an well informed Japanese who have lived both in the states and in Japan, I would like to say that "Jap" is highly offensive--equally as offensive as the word "gook", or for chinese-C----, or for african Americans, N-----. We must never call people by derogatory terms, because it is hurtful to others, so why should "Jap" be any different? From my personal experience, I have had a white person who called me a Chink. I was astounded by this person's foolishness. Not only did he assume I was a chinese just because of my Asian features, but he hurt me deeply inside. To see how people can hurt a fellow man is totally sad. It is something you must experience to understand. So take the first step, never hurt your fellow man, it will only cause pain and suffering. Some of you may ask, why I did not tell you I was Japanese? Well, I feared that people will not understand what I had to say, so I just played it by ear wondering if you guys were sophisticated enough to understand that hate takes you nowhere but into the abyss of pain, hurt, guilt, and everything that goes along with it. I am pleased to say that many of you understand it is wrong and I am very very pleased to say that people are willing to listen and understand, but most important of all people of all ages and races are willing to stop this nonsense called discrimination and hatred. The Nazis are a prime example of what hate does to a generation, a country, a race, the people, and religion. Hopefully, by me pointing this out, I can help the world be a better place for all others who may come after us.

I leave you with this final note.

Don't let history's mishaps destroy our future, let us learn from our mishaps so that we will never make the mistakes our previous generations have made.....

Thank you all who have read my very long post. I sincerely thank you for being so open minded to understand what is wrong is wrong and what is right is right. Good day to you all, and may god (or buddah, Jesus, Allah, or anything else you may happen to believe in.) bless you all.

Thank you

Wasp

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Post #: 19
- 6/30/2002 11:46:03 AM   
Goblin


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I still fail to understand. [I]Why[/I] is this word so offensive? What does it mean? The definition listed only that it is offensive, but not why. Can you tell me why it is so offensive? For that matter, I have never understood the 'N' word either. Or Dego, Wop, Guinea, etc (I am Italian American;) )

One of the best ways to end hate is to promote understanding. I also believe that, since so many younger Japanese and American people fail to even realize the word has negative connotations, that somewhere, someone has taught their children properly!

Wasp, out of respect for you as a fellow wargamer (it makes no difference to me where you are from), I will curb my use of the term. I would like you to think on something that maybe will ease your mind when you see words such as 'Jap'.

Words are tools. No word is inherently bad or negative, no matter what the dictionary may list as the definition. Just tools. The way a word is used makes it wrong. If you look at the context that your fellow gamers use the term in, it is not intended in a hateful, hurtful way. I hope you don't take that from these posts.

End sermon;) :)

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Post #: 20
- 6/30/2002 12:13:41 PM   
Kitakami


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mojo
[B]I understand the dilema oh sensitive green one. (Igotta be quick cause I can smell the rice cooking. red beans and rice for dinner tonight. I do love andouille sausage)[/B][/QUOTE]

Man...

Living in the West Coast AND eating andouille... you must be in heaven . Andouille gumbo and Oregon red wine... there is a combination to enjoy.

Returning to the thread, the offensive connotation of the contraction "Jap" comes, if I am not mistaken, from the WW II period. Newer generations who did not live though that time (myself included) cannot relate to this particular meaning of the word. Newer generations just have no way to relate to the fear/anger/patriotism/ignorance/acceptance of dictatorships of one form or another/etc. of that period. Thus, some use the word freely without knowing its original use was derogatory.

We also would have to agree that a lot of racist hatred historically has come out of fear... of the unknown. Nowadays we are so much more informed about cultures other than our own, that the fear is much lessened, except in extremist groups.

So I think we can safely say that in this forum, when the contraction "Jap" is used, none of us means anything demeaning or degrading by it. Japan is an ancient culture that has successfully become one of the economic powerhouses of the world, and that is something that I, at least, respect very much.

Now I have learned that for Japanese people being polite is very important, and I have to concede that calling a Japanese person a "Jap" is definitely not polite.

I, for one, tend not to use such contractions unless the person(s) I am speaking/writing to would call themselves that. As an example, I do not mind being called "latino," but I would be offended if someone called me a spick. So I would use Brit, Aussie, Kiwi, etc. only if the person I am speaking/writing to doesn't mind.

Just my 2 cents.

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 21
- 6/30/2002 1:44:06 PM   
Mojo

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kitakami
[B]

Man...

Living in the West Coast AND eating andouille... you must be in heaven . Andouille gumbo and Oregon red wine... there is a combination to enjoy.
... [/B][/QUOTE]

You know sometimes life is just too sweet;)

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Post #: 22
- 6/30/2002 1:51:18 PM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
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Hey, Kitikami, if you ever get into Louisiana I'll hook you up with some SERIOUS Cajun cooking.

Americans are a little sensitive to censorship since it's such a hot topic here in the US. Other parts of the world seem to not mind a little for the sake of "politeness."

I get easily worked up on such isses since I believe that people get too sensitive about things such as racial slurs. Where I live my people are constantly referred to as coon asses. Not very polite. Do I mind? Nope.

By the way, I had a Japanese foreign exchange student this year. I had to explain to her that thought most American had NO IDEA that being called a "baka gaijin" wasn't a compliment she might not want to use it. So muchfor politeness. She explained much about Japanese culture and Wasp is correct in that WW II is not emphasized in Japanese history classes. When we got to WW II in World History and she learned of the Japanese atrocities, she left class crying. Its a shame really, those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.

This will be my last post here. I move onto to other things. Sayonara

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Post #: 23
- 6/30/2002 9:39:46 PM   
Wasp

 

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Dear Goblin,

Well, as a person who understands the history and the origins of the word, it hurts me. All I am saying is that to those who know their history, it is quite painful. Would it be so hard to put JPN rather than jap? For me, it's a matter of respect. Out of respect of everyone, I will write out everything just so that there is no miscommuication. The world is a pretty big place: 10 people 10 minds. I also definitely appreciate those of you who understand the message and are willing to discontinue the use. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Perhaps, now that we all understand this issue, I hope that we will become more sensitive and more open minded to the huge world around us.

And by the way, when I saw "Jap" being used so freely in the post, it made me feel very uncomfortable, because it made me think "man, for all these people to use this word so freely, these people must have no respect for anyone" That was my original thought. Because when a word is used so casually, and when a problem arises it will certainly be used in a harmful way. When I first saw these posts, I was quite confused and disappointed. Seeing posts such as "sunk two jap carriers" etc made me think that some people still carry the hatred in their conscious/unconscious mind. I think just for the sake of making sure misunderstandings do not happen between people, we should try to end this, because this word can too easily be misunderstood.

I also understand that the not all words are specificially "evil" however I believe certain words just take a special place in history, and can cause major misunderstandings and conflicts between us, and we should be more careful of what we say before we open our mouth or write it. Even though a person may have written the word harmlessly, to a person with knowledge of history, it can become offensive. Which is why I brought this topic up.

If I may, I would like to request that Matrix fix the names of the game folders which include the name "jap" because there are so many people out there who may buy the game, see the names of the folder and become offended by it. Personally when I saw the name of the folders, I was quite offended, seeing a folder such as japship_back made me think wow, are these guys trying to promote hate? If it was jship or IJNship or something else, I would not mind, however; there is too big of a chance that people will misunderstand what you meant and become very offended. I just don't understand why people would rather use 'Jap' in an "unoffensive way" when it could cause serious problems. Just for the sake of avoiding conflict, would it not be better to use JPN? It is still a same 3 letter word, and JPN does not carry the derogatory meaning that "jap"does. This is exactly the kind of situation that JPN was created for so that there will be no misunderstanding between people.

Wasp

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 24
- 6/30/2002 9:51:15 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline
Wasp, this is where we part on our opinions. Edit other people's writing? Whoa. If I print something, thats my right, and no one should come along and edit it. Period.

File names? Those [I]are[/I] for the purpose of shortening something. If someone wants to be that sensitive, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Goodness, where is the line? Where do you stop worrying about offending people? This game offends ALOT of people. Its too violent. It promotes hate. Etc. Ban it?

How can you, or anyone else be offended by a word that wasn't intended to hurt, but play a game that represents Japanese and Americans and others killing eachother in horrible ways?

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(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 25
Wargames - 6/30/2002 11:28:12 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, I don't want to be in this thread. This is a website dealing with war games and history. We don't call each other names. We call the cyber guys in our wargames names in AAR's. No one thinks Germans today are fascists but we "drive back the fascist invaders of the motherland" everyday. If you see anyone calling another poster a name report him. If you read AAR's and Japs and Commies and fascists are getting killed remember where you are and who we are. Context.....CONTEXT!!!!
We did not write history. Race is not a factor in any wargame.
Race did contribute to the wars. Both sides had racists problems.
We don't. Name calling is not funny, but I have never seen it outside the "Art of War" where is was not part of an AAR and in keeping with the humour or spirt of good gaming. Mark Twains
"Life on the Mississippi" and "Huckleberry Fin" have been in the past censored for the use of a word. The censors ignored the fact that the word was part of the vocabaly of the time and the writter was one of the most senitive of the plight of the people of any American and his works did help bring about change. Merely focusing on a word misses the point. There has to be intent or freedom of expression suffers and feelings are hurt for no reason.
Getting rid of the word achives nothing. If someone wants to insult or hurt you they can achive that and never use anything but polite sounding or acceptable words. Likewise knowing that the source is a friend and looking at the context and intent there can be no doubt that no one here uses any word to offend.
We don't need censorship, we need understanding.
We begin as friends and this web site is a very friendly place.
Political correctness belongs to 2002 not 1941

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 26
- 6/30/2002 11:42:45 PM   
Wasp

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 4/27/2002
Status: offline
Dear Goblin,

Perhaps asking people to change is imposible and I may be asking for too much and I understand. I was not trying to say that people should be able to edit other's writing. It is their opinion, they are entitled to it and I respect that.

About the file names. Please don't take it the wrong way, I am just concerned that some person may be offended by it, even though it's just a file name, little things mean alot.

Copied from your earlier post:
=-----------
How can you, or anyone else be offended by a word that wasn't intended to hurt, but play a game that represents Japanese and Americans and others killing eachother in horrible ways?
=----------------
The game is fine as it is I have no problem with it.
Are you telling me that I should not be offended because "Jap" is not an offensive word? I am not so sure what you mean by this. Could you pease clarify? Are you telling me that there is nothing wrong with "jap" just because it is not in a sentence that degrades japanese? Are you telling me that when a person of Japanese origin is called a "jap" he/she is simply supposed to smile and go on about their business? If so, I must sincerely disagree. I think that the word it's self is so degrading that it simply makes any sentence seem vulgar weather it is not meant to be degrading or not. You know, I am very glad that we as humans are able to freely express our ideas and our opinions with out turning this into a personal issue. After all, this is the great US of A:) the home of the free and the brave:)

Wasp

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 27
- 6/30/2002 11:49:26 PM   
Wasp

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 4/27/2002
Status: offline
As long as it's just a wargame that we are here to enjoy, I guess I will be able to tolerate it. Perhaps some of the posts gave me a negative impression. If people do not have problems writing American, why do we have problems writing Japanese? It is still a same 8 letter word. As long as the word does not cause any problems between all of us and as long as everyone understands you are only describing it in game terms, not to degrade our past ancestors or to degrade anyone else and everyone understands this, we can get along fine. I am not here to start a big fuss or a huge fight over this. I am just here to say that the use of the word may cause some people to be offended.

That's enough of me and let us enjoy what we have right now. UV and perhaps WITP, once it comes out.

Wasp

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 28
- 6/30/2002 11:57:38 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline
Wasp

I have to agree with Mogami and Goblin. To attempt to edit these posts would be in violation of our basic rights. No one on this forum uses the word Jap in a derogatory fashion and this topic should never have been brought up. To bring up racist issues on this forum pains me..why someone feels the need to make a statement like that is beyond me. Oh...and I do know my world history...and take no pain in hearing the word Jap...why because it's only a word. Just as Mogami said..it's the context of how it's used. I shall continue to use this word when I play these games or I will use the word "Nips"...that too was used frequently during that era...and is the word my dad...who fought against the Japs used regularly...but he never used it in a derogatory sense either. I'm not even sure if Nip is derogatory...since it is short for Nippon and Nipponese, but then I don't care...since I don't use it in that context. So if you take offense in a word....look at the context it is used before raising the racist issues.

Andy

(in reply to Wasp)
Post #: 29
- 7/1/2002 12:29:27 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp
[B] Are you telling me that when a person of Japanese origin is called a "jap" he/she is simply supposed to smile and go on about their business? [/B][/QUOTE]

He!! no, I'm not telling you that! If someone calls a person of any national origin any kind of derogatory word or phrase, they definately should stand up for themselves!

My point is, no one here called anybody any names. As Mogami stated, these are pixel characters in a game, and the AAR's/DAR's are fictional stories not directed at a living person.

My apologies if I was unclear.:)

I see from your posts that your primary concern is not for yourself but for Japanese readers that may come along. That is commendable, and you have definately made us think on the subject. Hopefully these potential readers are fellow wargamers who will understand the non-hostile context in which the words are used.

eric

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Post #: 30
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